Biggest Disparity between Talent and Trophies

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Milan05, May 3, 2017.

  1. Milan05

    Milan05 Member

    Dec 2, 2015
    Club:
    AC Milan
    Francesco Totti - one Serie A title and one World Cup trophy, but he could have achieved far more (at club level) if he had joined a bigger team.

    Steven Gerrard - one Champions League trophy, but never won the league. Again, if he joined Chelsea with Mourinho in 2004, who knows what he could have achieved.

    Marco Reus - never won a league title or a European trophy. He got injured before both the 2014 World Cup and 2016 Euros. Injuries have ruined his career.


    Any other players who were far more talented than what their trophy cabinet suggests?
     
  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    George Best - 2 English 1st Division league titles and a European Cup, but he and the team both had a short stint at the top and his cabinet looks empty compared to players held in equivalent all-time regard or considered similarly talented.

    Roberto Baggio - A Uefa Cup, followed in his final Juve season by a league and cup double and then Serie A again with Milan....but spent a lot of time away from the biggest spending/achieving Italian clubs, with Juventus and Milan both winning major trophies several times in the 90s when he wasn't at the club.

    Tom Finney - Runners-up medals at best in the English game.
     
  3. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    #3 unclesox, May 3, 2017
    Last edited: May 3, 2017
    Uwe Seeler (Hamburg)
    1 German Championship (pre-Bundesliga)
    1 German Cup

    West Germany won the World Cups of 1954 and 1974.
    Seeler played in the four World Cups sandwiched by those two triumphs:
    1958, semifinalist
    1962, quarterfinalist
    1966, finalist
    1970, semifinalist
     
    comme repped this.
  4. song219

    song219 BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 5, 2004
    La Norte
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Vanuatu
    Interesting would be the opposite. The journeyman who seemingly by luck ended up being on many trophy winning teams.
     
  5. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Matt Le Tissier - Closest to a trophy was being a finalist in the ZDS Cup.

    Giussepe Giannini - In seasons he played many games he only won 2 Italian Cups.

    Socrates - Just regional trophies rather than national/continental ones at club level, and no International trophies.
     
  6. lanman

    lanman BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 30, 2002
    There were some fairly average players who won a lot with Man Utd - Wes Brown, John O'Shea, David May, Darren Fletcher.
     
  7. lanman

    lanman BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 30, 2002
    A lot of the English greats of that time won very little, mainly because moving clubs was so difficult. The famed front line of Matthews, Mortensen, Lawton, Mannion and Finney combined for one league title (Lawton) and 2 FA Cups (Matthews and Mortensen in the same year).
     
    PDG1978 repped this.
  8. song219

    song219 BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 5, 2004
    La Norte
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    Vanuatu
    That I can see happening much easier than the same levei of players getting trophies on multiple teams.
     
  9. lanman

    lanman BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 30, 2002
    Yeah, a reasonable squad player can have quite a bit of success.

    Thiago Motta's trophy cabinet probably exceeds his ability. He's a good player, but has 7 league titles and two Champions Leagues at three big clubs. Far better players won a lot less.
     
  10. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    To be fair, players like Fletcher and Brown, while overall lacking in quality that would justify their trophy cabinet, did have periods in their careers where they were playing out of their skins.

    Getting mid-table players to play like UCL players for about 24 months was one of Fergie's special abilities.
     
  11. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I suppose if we start counting British Championships that would take those sorts of players out of the equation (or take them off zero anyway). Although I don't think they really count as major championships, even if a Europe-wide national team competition wasn't played in their time.
     
  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    An interesting opposite sort of case might be Henning Berg (not so much a slight on Fergie's work with him, but more just what happens in some careers). A very very good player at Blackburn (winning the league championship) - especially if with defenders we are not defining talent by skills but more how adept they are at their role - his skills being adequate for that but his overall contributions more towards (if not quite at) key player than squad player. But by the time he won the treble, and adds another League Championship plus an Intercontinental Cup (although he didn't play that match so maybe that shouldn't count) he was definitely more in the squad player bracket I'd say and not just because the Man United squad was more stacked than Blackburn's....and so he'd seem at that stage like a candidate, albeit not major as others won more, for Song219's question.

    Which reminds me, as he was Norwegian too and they played together briefly at Blackburn (although I decide to mention it only because I already mentioned Giannini for example I think and in this case for talent, and maybe just overall how good he was at his best IMO too, I don't see him below or certainly clearly below the Italian) Lars Bohinen won no trophies - 3rd place in the Premier League with Forest being as near as he would have come I'd think.

    Combining lanman's idea with the concept of talent and skill/individuality Len Shackleton was one who won no major trophies (or any trophies?) too. And going a bit later but staying in England (which might seem strange to some on the topic of talent, however defined, lol, but the names are more familiar to me I suppose, and also it shows in the English game some of the most highly revered 'talents' and arguably among the best players too didn't win much) Peter Osgood just won one FA Cup and the subsequent Cup Winners Cup. Depending on the definition I should think he'd be regarded as more 'talented' than Gerrard although probably at his peak even less good/effective overall (although some Chelsea fans at least would probably argue with that!).
     
  13. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Not a journeyman by any means (I nominated him recently for team of 94/95 even) but an interesting case is Paulo Sousa who won the Italian double and then the Champions League with Juventus and then moved to Dortmund and won another Champions League straight away. Surely he contributed, perhaps decisively, but it was definitely in large part due to circumstances and the qualities of team-mates I'd think.
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Especially Fletcher his stretch was when the EPL top four was kind of dominant in Europe.

    Fletcher had also many injuries.
     
  15. robnycus

    robnycus Member+

    Jun 28, 2010
    Club:
    New York Cosmos
    Ronaldo: No champions League title
     
  16. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    The teams he played on never even reached a UCL final.
     
  17. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    How about Socrates?
    Won four State titles (3 São Paulo, 1 Rio) but never won the national Brasileirão. (Only played one season in Europe - 1984/85 Fiorentina)
    And his best placing with Brazil was Copa America runner-up in 1983.
     
  18. unclesox

    unclesox BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 8, 2003
    209, California
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Giuseppe Signori
    1 Serie B title with Foggia
    1 Intertoto Cup with Bologna
    He's in the top ten all-time leading goal scorers in Serie A.
     
  19. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    On that note, what about Antonio Di Natale? ZERO team title, but he's Serie A's 6th highest top goalscorer of all time.
     
    unclesox repped this.
  20. Milan05

    Milan05 Member

    Dec 2, 2015
    Club:
    AC Milan


    From 2011 to 2014, this guy was arguably not inferior to any player not named Ronaldo or Messi.

    How different his legacy could have been if he hadn't gotten injured before the 2014 World Cup. He was Germany's best player in the qualifiers, but then that ankle injury against Armenia...

    Of course, he got injured just before Euro 2016 too. :mad:

    One of the most underrated players in recent memory. Injuries have ruined his career. :(

    And despite that, he is still Dortmund's best player whenever he's fit.
     
    ko242 repped this.
  21. Ozora

    Ozora Member+

    Barcelona
    Spain
    Aug 5, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea LFC
    Micheal Ballack with Germany
     
  22. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Not a journeyman, but Pedro had decent playing time and won:
    5 x La Liga, 3 x CL, World Cup, Euro
     
  23. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    Francisco Sa won 7 libertadores.
    And Dragan Stojkovic didnt win anything significant. I cant think of any bigger disparity
     
  24. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    He might have a Premier League and FA Cup double to add to it soon also potentially.
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #25 PuckVanHeel, May 7, 2017
    Last edited: May 7, 2017
    In the sense of "best footballers in the world" then Eusebio is a good one too, and where the peak of his powers mismatch with the (potential) trophy cabinet he could have had.

    Yes he has 11 league titles - many of them before and after his prime - and the 1962EC with one of the best final performances ever (still one of the very best ever I'd say). But during his actual peak and the peak of his fame he could have had:

    1963 European Cup: a foul by Pivatelli with the ball nowhere near put Coluna out of the match. Eusebio scored a good goal in the final but playing for 35 minutes with 10 men was too much against AC Milan.

    1965 European Cup final: the goalkeeper got injured in the first half. In the second half Germano played for 45 minutes as goalkeeper. Once again, for 45 minutes Benfica played with 10 men against Inter. The final was also played in San Siro, Internazionale's home ground.

    1966 World Cup: a true superstar performance at the peak of his fame. But the last minute venue swap - so that England could play all of their games at Wembley - maybe didn't help (in later decades also other aspects of FIFA's coziness to England and esp. Germany during this tournament came to the fore). Those small details can matter; in 1990 Matthaus, Brehme and Klinsmann played all but two of their matches in the favored and wished San Siro (plus one in the nearby Turin). England and Netherlands were (in)famously banned to dour and underdeveloped Sicily. Those small (enforced) details can matter, and also influence the narrative surrounding a star player.

    1968 European Cup: a golden chance near the end of regular time, stopped by the Manchester United goalkeeper (at Wembley; just as the 1963 final and the 1966 semi final). With only a couple of minutes to play.


    During his best years (~1963 - 1968) he achieved four league titles but outside of that no other significant trophies.

    With a bit more luck or different circumstances he could have been a three or four times European Cup winner, plus a finalist at the World Cup with 9 or 10 goals. That would more or less match with the three to five years he was at his best and at peak fame, and although a trophy more or less doesn't make him a better or worse footballer necessarily, in common perception it would matter a great deal for his legacy and standing.
     
    benficafan3 and PDG1978 repped this.

Share This Page