O sea, en otras palabras: porque no te gusta políticamente, está bien que el ahora ex-técnico de nuestra Selección no lo haya saludado?? Estamos clarinetes entonces. Bingo! Ahora, suficiente con este tema.
Idem, pienso exactamente igual a JAIME CHILE en esta. Hay un dicho popular muy sabio en Chile para describir esta situación : "No hay peor sordo, que el que no quiere escuchar" En aquella ocasión, el tópico era sobre el amistoso entre Chile vs. USA, y lo referente a ratas e insectos, no tuvo nada que ver con lo que discutíamos entonces. Si no que solamente surgió como otro tema fuera de tópico. En donde nadie más participaba, y lo que es más importante, es que nadie se refería al tópico original, solo sazal911 y yo, participábamos en aquella ocasión. En un momento, tú manifestastes tú parecer, pero como te dije ahora hace poco, tú ya no eres moderador, sino que solo una opinión más, igual que la nuestra, por lo que no te hice caso. U ofreces un argumento sólido que encauze el tópico o mejor simplemente quédate callado y no digas más. Pero esto a tí no te importa, eres porfiado e insistes en tú postura y lo que es peor, llevas tu molestia no solo al tópico en cuestión, sino que tomas una actitud vengativa en todos los tópicos hacia quien va dirigida tú molestia y no dices las cosas de frente, como lo que tú estás ahora exigiendo, sino que buscas el sarcasmo y el apoyo de otros en tú accionar, a lo que como casi siempre respondo, con el mismo tipo de sarcasmo que tú pretendes utilizar conmigo, y ojo, puedo ser muy hiriente, llegado el caso (Pero tú empezastes, no yo). En aquella ocasión, hacia el final yo mismo manifesté si era de el parecer de los demás, hablar sobre lo que conversabamos en otro tópico en la sección NSR, lo que no tuvo acogida de parte de nuestro moderador, opinión que respeté y no hablé más de ello. Ahora te estoy respondiendo de frente, ¿ Te gusta más así ?. Te lo estoy diciendo ahora, pero como tú solo te has referido a mí persona en tercera persona, yo te he respondido igual. Que a tí no te llegue el mensaje, ese es problema tuyo y no mío. Y tú no eres moderador.. Cargo que no deseo para nada, y al cual no tengo la más mínima intención de postular, por lo que tendrás que solo leer mís "filipicas de posts", como si yo fuera lo que soy : otro miembro de este foro, al igual que tú. Claro que en tú caso, parece que si querías serlo, pero no puedes por errores del pasado, y al igual que a tí que te gusta dar consejos, yo te daré un par : aprende a ser un poquito menos arrogante y a aceptar a los demás como son, distintos que tú. Y no persigas a quienes te molestan, por otros tópicos, pues la actitud es lamentablemente, muy evidente. (esto último no solo se refiere a mí persona sino que a otros también, ex-moderadores incluídos) Cuando hayas aprendido estas premisas esenciales de convivencia en un foro universal, solo entonces podrás ser considerado nuevamente como moderador. (Al menos desde mí punto de vista)
No es tan así, Juan Pinto Durán, no es un lugar público, sino que privado. Si hubo falta de respeto, esta provino de Piraña que llegó sin ser invitado al lugar de trabajo de otras personas y a la casa de Bielsa, pues ahí él residía. No por ser Presidente de la República, tiene el derecho de meterse donde él quiera, como hizo en esta ocasión, con toda su parafernalia de prensa guvernamental e invitados ilustres. No le dieron la oportunidad a Bielsa de ausentarse, si es que no lo quería recibir, avisándole con la debida anticipación de que iban a ir. Se la impusieron. Por lo que si tú le quieres criticar el hecho de que no quisiese saludar a Piraña, deberías ser consecuente y criticar a Piraña primero, por llegar sin ser invitado. Chile se supone que es una Democracia y cada cual puede decidir sobre la base de una decisión personal y por ningún motivo por imposición, que dado el caso es propio de un gobierno absoluto o autocrático. En época de Pinochet, esto era pan nuestro de todos los días, pero eso es pasado y no presente. Hoy nadie está obligado a tener que saludar al presidente, sobretodo si se trata de una visita extra oficial y menos aún cuando ese alguien es forastero, como lo fué en el caso de Bielsa. Si, en el fondo Bielsa estuvo mal, pero por dar excusas, cuando nunca debió haberlas dado, pero lo hizo como señal de humildad y respeto, por lo que en vez de criticárselo, deberían haberle aplaudido dicha actitud, lo que nunca ocurrió, al igual que jamás Piraña reconoció su propia falta, por lo que pecó de soberbia. Pero ese es Piraña, el es así.
Sí Rickdog: sí. Contento? En todo caso mi solicitud a que no alargues tus posts no es porque me crea o no mod: es porque simpledemente desvirtuas mucho las trenzas. Y si bien a ratos presentes algunos argumentos válidos, generalmente te vas por la tangente y eso a la larga aburre a muchos, no necesariamente por la "longitud" de tus posts pero más porque o repites lo que vienes diciendo o simplemente cambias mucho las tematicas. Por lo menos, en el caso de zasal el se rindió. En fin, sólo era una sugerencia: si te dolió o te sientes acomplejado porque quieres ser mod, etc., te ofrezco las más sinceras disculpas del caso. No me volvere a referir a ti ni en primera ni tercera persona porque veo que te afectó mucho.
no, the problem is that he latches onto words or phrases that don't matter to keep an argument going, and ignores the substance or points of what you're trying to say... for instance: you might say "as natinoal team dt Bielsa should have shown more respect to Pinera" he'll say: "Actually, the Pinto Duran is a private faciity...." if you don't get a response rom him on something it means you're doing well because he couldn't figure out a way to argue about it
Al parecer no alcanzastes a leer el último parrafo del post que te escribí, tras subrayar tú actual condición : No me interesa serlo, aunque valorizo a quienes si lo hacen. En cuanto a como debes tratarme, por respeto mutuo, solo debe ser el trato que debemos darle a cualquiera dentro del foro. Ni más, ni menos.
I already told you, that for any line of argumentation, the words you choose are very important as in many cases, with the use of them, your opinion loses credibility. If you can`t understand it, well, it`s your issue to deal it with. If I don`t answer, it`s because I have figured out, it`s useless to continue trying a pointless discussion, as one of the key elements in it, is missing : The capacity to acknowledge through it, that you may be wrong, an issue I think you should work on. (I could be wrong though, but that`s the conclussions I got after our long discussion in the other topic, which I will not repeat here, if you are thinking of going on, for it.....)
you can think and view things as you like. But in the other long discussion i tried to reach a consensus by saying that if you're saying "xxxx" then I can agree with that. By specifically trying to get at what you were arguing by asking you, "is this what you are saying?" .....and ending by saying that i can agree with all of these points and not with others.. You're response was to suggest that you had set some sort of ridiculous test or something and disregarding all of that. Above you accused me of blasting you for quoting latercera....i put a post of what i actually said and how it wasn't a blast at you, and there's no response at all... When you went on that rant that i shouldn't be racist by calling 'gypsie's Roma's, i explained to you how that is actually what they are lobbying to be called and that most consider the term 'gypsie' offensive.....you never responded. so coming at me and saying that i have a problem saying i'm wrong seems ridiculous. I believe in objectivity, which you don't, and i try to come to consensus with people. its just that with you its often imposisble because you'll ignore pertinent things and latch onto whatever. I don't consider that i have a problem saying i'm wrong, but i'll think about it and consider it .. You try to understand that you have a serious reading comprehension problem...You take things that people say in directions way beyond the words they used or somewhere else completely.. which is why when i say this: "I did find it interesting that no other papers ran the story about the meeting other than reprinting it" you take it like this: "Y Tú, que antes me agarrabas para el "chuleteo" por citar este diario. ah, entonces cuando tú lo citas vale, no cuando son otros. Gran ejemplo de ecuanimidad,)"
Cuando Chile clasifico al mundial el 2009, despues del partido con Colombia, la Bachelet tambien se fue a meter a Pinto Duran sin que nadie la invitara, o no? O la invito Bielsa? O la invito Maynicholls?
Siempre invitada y felizmente recibida, con mucha anterioridad, tanto por HMN y especialmente por Bielsa, quien siempre la consideró su amiga y alguien digna de admiración, incluso hasta hoy en día, independiente de que ella fuera o no el Presidente de la República. No mezcles Política con deporte y menos con amistad sincera. Puede no gustarte, pero Bielsa es libre de escoger los amigos que él quiera, admirar a quien se le ocurra y como cualquier persona, es libre de pensar politicamente como le guste, aunque esto no viene al caso. Cuando firmó con HMN para ser DT de nuestra selección, no firmó para ejercer un cargo público de dependencia del Estado de Chile. En el caso de Piraña, este jamás fué su amigo y lo que es peor, a Bielsa le desagradaba como persona, aún mucho antes de ser siquiera candidato presidencial, lo que obviamente se agudizó cuando Piraña utilizó la imagen de Bielsa, durante toda su campaña electoral antes de ser electo Presidente de Chile, sin su consentimiento expreso para ello http://www.diarioperfil.com.ar/edimp/0485/articulo.php?art=22928&ed=0485
Yo también así me lo imagino, y es más, lo veo celebrando posteriormente la obtención del Campeonato Mundial, al cual nosotros fuimos incapaces de clasificar, eliminados en las eliminatorias precisamente por uno de sus dirigidos, ya sea Argentina directamente o por México en el repechaje interzonal.........
Bielsa resign from Argentina then resigned from Chile, I don't think he can put up or would even want to deal with more football politics again anywhere else. With him leaving now its making him looking like a Genius for what he has done and for what he has left behind for future.
Si Bielsa volveria a trabajar con la seleccion Argentina en cual manda Julio Grondona de la AFA, seria un hipocrita.
That's fine & understandable, but if he's going to complain and say that Chilean futbol is being controlled by the 3 big clubs from Santiago and cite that as a reason for resigning, then live by your principles and cry foul when 1 man is running the show in his own country.
Despites Grondona`s character, who never was his friend, when Bielsa resigned from the Argentine bench, it wasn`t due to have felt a diference in the treatment that Grondona granted him, in regards to whom when he resigned said that despite their diferences, he always felt he had the required support from its Federation, in order to do right his job. After his defeat in the WC, he continued working afterwards with the same kind of support he had before the WC, which allowed him to win the Olympic Gold, only to resign afterwards due to the constant criticism he got in his nation, a kind of criticism that not only affects you as a person, but also included harrasment over his family and friends, by some fans and specially by the press who were almost literally stripping the man and asking him to be hanged, putting out lots of candidates to replace him, who would have better results than him, and as here, many thought that the coach wasn`t necessary given the quality of their players (which undoubtly are and have been better than ours all through history). Ja, ja, ja,, look at them now, ..........whatever. He left Argentina`s bench, as recent Olympic Gold, First in the qualifiers for the next WC, in other words, he left the team by the front door, where the doors were vey wide, in order to someday maybe go back. It is his greatest wish and desire, as said due to his nationality and sense of patriotism (which is perfectly respectable), to once again train the Argentine team and lead it to victory. Now we made the step for them, allowing him to resign from our team, in order that this can happen in theirs.
I will play devil's advocate and say that Bielsa really didn't do anything with Argentina. Maradona did better than he ever did at the WC, so did Pekerman. Bielsa made it to the Copa America final and so did Basile. Bielsa won a gold medal at the Olympics, and so did Batista..... Also, how did ByN make his life as Chile's DT difficult exactly? I understand that HMN lost the elections and ByN was influential with that but how did they make his job impossible or not offer him support?
My friend, you got to put things in perspective. Now, in 2010, Chile appears to be as a succesful National team, Top 15, so it`s hard to analyze things with this in mind, as how were things in the past. This will be long, but however.... In 2007, Chile was among the worst team of CONMEBOL, bearly reaching the top 80 (# 86 to be exact), and no one in our country gave a damn about the inmediate future of our team, and when HMN recently asumed as president of the Federation, he had to do a huge lobby, that took him almost a month to get Bielsa as our coach (One of HMN`s biggest assets). By then everyone thought that Borghi was going to be our coach, and all the press critiziced HMN, for being so stubborn on insisting on Bielsa (everyone thought that this was a wet dream and nothing else). But finally, his perseverance paid out, and Bielsa accepted working for us, but he accepted working only if there would be 110 % of comitment and dedication to the project of enhancing the NT . For doing this, there was suposed to be full integrity within all levels of the Federation with the NT staff, so any problem that affected any one of the links, affected the whole project. If the big 3, supported only Bielsa`s work, but not HMN`s, the whole project would be in jeopardy. The same if they would`ve supported HMN, but not Bielsa, as their work was directly corelated. This is why, when Bielsa saw that as HMN wasn`t going to get re-elected and together by the fact that the opposing candidate by then, said that he had the whole support from Bielsa and the NT, is that he stepped out to menace from resignation if that person got to be the new president, because he is not willing to work with a lier, who lies about his own person (this is the same with Piranha, when he was a candidate, who used Bielsa`s image for self interest). As Segovia, didn`t asume and another person asumed instead of him, Bielsa gave this person time to prove him to be worthy, as he wasn`t reliable, he took his final call.(I`m getting off-topic here, but it is all somehow related). back to the "big 3" : They always say that they supported Bielsa, but whenever they put obstacles in passing their players to the NT, they are contradicting themselves. This was more manifest in the case of U. de Chile, who`s president, Mr. Valdes usually used the press where to manifest his disagreements, most of the times angry complaints which the press loves, making waves in all the psychological atmosphere that invoved the NT (instead of being supportive, it`s highly stressful and affects the whole team, not only its coach, reasons why Bielsa decided not to call their players again). But the other 3 big teams, Colo Colo included, although they finally released their players, in many ocassions it was together with lots of complaints through the press, which of course also creates an unsupportive atmosphere in the training camp, specially if those players only get to train with the team and not play afterwards. You have to realize that for each calling of players of about 22 or more of them, not all are going to play and some are required only for training with the team to try out diferent schemes that can afterwards be used in the game, and at last some players are examined during training by the coach. The other issue, most important btw, is the "money thing", the whole maintainance of everything that relates to the NT, as to any NT that pretends to be at top of ranks, is highly expensive and the money that the federation has very limited, as most of the times that HMN had discussions with Bielsa related to it, when there was no more money for things that Bielsa wanted, but as HMN was being honest denying it explaining it thoroughly, it gave Bielsa satisfaction, but forced him to many of the times reach at his own pocket, which some times helped but others, simply couldn`t be afforded. One of the biggest issues that caused problems within their relationships right after the classification to the WC, was when Bielsa wanted the Federation to hire one of his asistants to the younger teams, which was denied by HMN, and through his anger everyone thought that Bielsa would resign (If the Federation would have done what Bielsa wanted by then, maybe we could all be cellebrating our next Olimpic and sub 20 WC participation, but there was no money to afford it). With the money of the past WC participation and the money that comes trough, for advertizing in the NT compromized, HMN and Bielsa, and the rest of the federations staff, thought that if they could handle a bigger participation through the profits of the CDF, this could solve all those unsatisfied issues. Unfortunately, the "big 3" put the federation on trial last year, when HMN decided for an equal sharing among all the 32 teams involved within the federation, which was lost and the 3 big teams secured there share in regards to the rest (each of the big 3, gets nearly 8 % each, while the rest of the teams get less than 2,5 % each, by decission of the court). This was the first great blow of the "big 3" against the NT and the Federation, however forced to accept this, the other possible solution was the full buy of the 20 % of the rest of the share of the CDF, which could put more money for everyone, but only in the medium or long timeline, but the "big 3" thought diferent and well they did well in their intentions (not necessarily clean bargains, but they obtained what they wanted), getting HMN out of picture beating him in the elections. Bielsa did not quit for any of this reasons. He resigned due to the lack of credibility of our new Fed officials. The rest was simply pointed out, as his own opinion about the issue, and also his opinion about the things that will affect us on the long run, and at last his opinions of whom to guilt this for (as he is a human being, he could be wrong though, as anyone can be, by expressing an opinion). He manifested his opinions now, since he is not going to be around no longer. It was his last opinion here of what relates to his wonderful stay and job in Chile, as he knew that his resignation would produce all kinds of comments, so he saved the reporters the time, and the possibility of one of them, to make a great report only for his own selfish interest (very likely to be from "La Tercera", ) . About his performance as coach of Argentina, it may seem little, but he managed to grab a group who was going through chaos, and as what he did here in Chile, he put order and discipline into it, and through it he unfortunately nourished the hopes of our neighboring country men, that they were unbeatable, as every result they had was great, even in friendlies playing at home or as visitors, and their only menace in the world, was our own "Football Bed Monster", Brazil, but unfortunately for them, the other teams whom they faced in the WC, had other things in mind and together both UEFA sides, wiped Argentina out of that WC. What mostly hurted our neighbors, was that England was one of them.) (lesson #1 of Football : games must be won, not deserved) . After the WC, everything went back on track for them, and once again they were undefeatable, which lasted till their first Olimpic Gold in their history (it is always harder the first time you obtain anything, from there on, you don`t have to deal with the issue that you`ve never done it before), and when they were leading the next qualifiers, Bielsa resigned. That among other reasons is why they called him "El loco",
marcelo aparecio hoy como posible asistente de cada seleccion USA. la otra oferta en la mesa es el pachuca de Hidalgo (muy buena gita y proyecto para un loko grande)
There is a difference between collaborating and bending over. For me personally, its the way, and not the intention that pisses me off about Valdes. He speaks for the fans when he says that La U will not send its players during crucial playoff games. There is nothing unreasonable on that, its just the way he does and says it. I also agree about the money thing, as everyone here does as well. All of the teams wanted more money, all of them, even the ones that voted for HMN. One could say the big 3 went against HMN because they wanted more $ from CDF, well the same thing applies to all the other teams, they supported HMN cause they would get more CDF money. To me the problem never is the person, its always the institution which he works in. Whats the point of having a great president if the system is so messed up.