bicycling to work thread

Discussion in 'Automotive' started by guignol, Jan 29, 2008.

  1. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    an update: last week i had a breakdown that meant i had to use my son's bike a couple of days; similar to mine and with fairly urban tires, but with front suspension.

    it actually was only about half a gearchange different; i generally used the same development, it just took more oomph to get up to speed, and at cruising speed it seemed very similar... though only at the very steadiest of steadystates.

    the upside was that there is an big gain in comfort when going up and down even driveway-type curbs, and i especially liked it on a little cobblestone section i go through. it's still not me cup of tea but i can fully understand why some would like this even (even especially) in town.

    note however that there is an appreciable loss of precision in steering and stability, which can be a big downside in the urban jungle.
     
  2. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    Yeah, that is definitely going too far. Especially in Europe where bikers tend to follow the rules and aren't running over/cutting-off pedestrians left and right.
     
  3. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    well, you might be surprised. there are muppets everywhere.

    but as blaise pascal said, we focus on what we see only occasionally and hardly notice the strangest things that we see every day; that certainly goes for the way people drive to work in big cities all over the world. from what i see every morning i'd say no more than 20% of automobilists exercise anything resembling due care behind the wheel, and i'm not counting picayune things like not using turn signals: phoning, beating the lights, precipitated left turns, speeding... in all open-minded honesty i claim that drivers are orders of magnitude less careful and courteous than cyclists... which is a shame since there vehicles are hundreds of times more dangerous.
     
  4. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    I agree about the 20%, but we're talking about bending the rules. e.g. Running red lights, not ignoring them altogether. The only time I ever see a car going the wrong way on a one-way street is by accident. The average North American biker includes it as part of his/her planned route. Because why ride an extra 30 seconds when you could be a complete dick instead?
     
  5. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    well, i imagined you would call my 20% into question... in any case tomorrow i will explain the eminently scientific method i used to determining it (right now unfortunately i need to walk the dog).

    i on the other hand will need a clarification of "average" cyclist, as i feel you may be exaggerating; i see cyclists doing it of course (notably at least one every frigging morning taking my major bike lane the wrong way even after i handed him a map with the correct itinerary (an identical path just a block going the right way... what a putz!)...

    of course the problem has been reduced in the fair city of lyon with "wrong-way" bikepaths, more on that manana too. coming rover!
     
  6. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    one could have jumped to the conclusion i claimed that at any given moment 80% of motorists are up to something naughty, obviously exaggerated. some time ago i used this method over a few days that is obviously not infallible nor completely objective but is better than just a boneheaded guess.

    at different points of my commute i noted the number of cars i had in my field of view; a range from 2-3 to 10-12, i hit upon a rough average of 7-8 which i rounded to 10 to be conservative... and to facilitate calculation.

    then i counted the number of dangerous manoeuvres by cars over my route; here there is some subjectivity; for example, simply not using a turn signal or opening your car door without looking doesn't count, unless a risk of accident attached to that airheadedness was clear and imminent.

    the number of incidents probably ranged from the mid 20's to over 40... i don't have any firm data for you, i just know that the 20% final result was roughly constant, here's a sample calculation: 32 incidents/8 cars (the average but not static population observed) = 4 incidents per driver. but obviously not every driver makes 4 bonehead moves every 7,5km.

    using a pareto type distribution one can posit that 80% of the incidents can be attributed to 20% of scofflaws. 32-26 = 6 incidents for 8 drivers. attribute these evenly and you get 2 drivers out of 10 who are not driving dangerously... or at least are not adding through their own stupidity and selfishness to the enormous inherent danger a ton and a half of steel and plastic hurtling through town inevitably represents.

    i actually started this musing (not quite a study is it?) to compare the sensibility/courtesy of motorists and cyclists. i hit upon a rough 50% naughty kitten ratio for velocipedists but the data was so sketchy and variable as to be of no real value. but it seemed reasonable to assume that by its very nature cycling would attract a more aware and responsible set, that using your car in town showed such a deep disrespect for all things good and true that, at bottom, a majority of motorists were of necessity irredeemable sociopaths.

    this conceit was sorely put to the test this morning, when i tried to see if my old conclusions would be supported by fresh data. but wednesdays in france, a fortiori in the months of july and august, are days of light traffic; the number of cars observed was less than half of normal. and surprisingly (at first) i was 4/5th the way to work before i witnessed the first (and finally only) act of motorized muppetry of the morning (a psychotically dangerous left turn; the exception that proves the rule?) leading to this conclusion: perhaps motorists aren't fundamentally bad people. they are simply overcome by the stress they are putting themselves under by their misguided choice of locomotion. harried, hassled, hurried... they have to make that light! they have to take this call! they have to get past that school crossing before that threatening lollipop is displayed! you can add the syndrome that affects lévi-strauss' mealworms. there's simply not enough room on this street for all of us: it's every jack and jill for themself so out of my way!

    but this morning the smokers (the only people who drive with their windows down) could probably hear the birds singing. driving was almost as pleasant... as cycling!

    on the other hand, the discourtesy rate for cyclists seemed unchanged. suggesting that they don't have the same environmental excuses. when they act like twunts it's because deep down... they're just twunts!
     
  7. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    there are many things that cyclists are tempted to do because there is (or seems to be) no harm or danger involved... and sometimes less than there is in doing things the "right" way.

    red light jumping is one. when done intelligently it makes cycling MUCH safer. not only do policeman understand the argument, in some places it has become the rule of the road.

    cycling the wrong way down one-way streets ad hoc is not good behavior. when the street is wide enough it seems innocuous enough... but can only be considered a convenient practice, not a wise one. but when that convenience is so great, and the street so wide...

    the answer is to retrace the lines on the street and create a bike path going the way of temptation! it destroys the rationale some cyclists use for doing it on streets where it's not authorized, and channels the bikes into a part of the pavement where they no longer perturb car traffic.

    the weakness to the scheme (as for bike paths in general) is that the people who plan and decide usually aren't cyclists themselves. thus in the 3rd arrondissment (the mayor of which is a fervent bike hater) no such paths exist despite it having the most modern layout and the greatest opportunities, but in the 1st (boboland) there are some in streets barely wide enough for a car to get down at all, much less cross paths with a cyclist. and as a general rule in the whole city, wrong-way cycling is permitted by ordinance (as is crossing the street outside of the crosswalks) in all 30km zones under the demented impression that in this year of jubilee all is sweetness and light, the lion lies down with the lamb and speed limits are scrupulously respected.
     
  8. raza_rebel

    raza_rebel Member+

    Dec 11, 2000
    Club:
    Univ de Chile
    Hi. Just visiting here and wanted to ask a question. 2 really. I run regularly and have noticed two things:
    1- I have noticed more and more that drivers stop where ever they feel like it and text or phone someone. I see this a lot. I'm not talking about a suburban road but 4 or 6 lane roads.

    2-As a runner I try to make eye contact with the driver at the interaections. I have noticed throughout the years that lots of drivers just speed up and take the right hand turn anyway, essentially cutting me off.

    Does this happen to cyclists.... to observe this abbérent behavior ?
     
  9. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    I walk to work, 3 miles each way, half on a "rail to trail" or through woods, half on sidewalks in town. I keep ready to hand in a pocket of my backpack photocopies of the page from my state's driver's manual that explains the rules covering pedestrian right of way. Whenever someone stops to insult me for crossing in a crosswalk where they have a stop sign, I try to give it to them. Happens about once a month where someone actually takes it. It doesn't seem to be making a dent, but it is a start.

    Generally, though,I prefer to jaywalk. It is much safer than counting on people to respect my rights in the crosswalk.
     
  10. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    as aberrant (also abhorrent) behavior these are both common peeves.

    as concerns 1) french drivers have less excuse than american ones as using your phone while driving here has been against the law for years, the penalties are severe (class 4 infraction meaning loss of 3 of the 12 points on your license and fines up to 750€) and the forces of law & order consider this n°3 on their list of things to look out for. in the defense of those who at least stop to do this, mostly i think they're answering calls, not placing them. nevertheless, in the eyes of the law, unless they're legally parked with motor off the offense is the same.

    for 2) being cut off by right turners is roughly as common and slightly more dangerous than that other pet peeve, the car door being flung open in your face. but where the latter is almost always pure airheadedness, the former is at least half the time done with inconsiderate and reckless (if rarely actually malicious) intent.

    a word concerning the general attitude of drivers towards bicyclists here in lyon. as bike use has increased, and also become more onstentatory through public awareness campaigns, the number of drivers who visibly are looking out for cyclists and respecting their rights of way (and rights in general) has also increased. but these have all probably come from the end of the spectrum where drivers had good practices to begin with. the quality of driving the lumpenmotortariat seems to be slightly improved too, but that may simply be the effect of an infrastructure better adaptted to bicycles. but at the far end there is an element that seems incompressible of truly vicious drivers, and their behavior has noticeably worsened.
     
    raza_rebel repped this.
  11. raza_rebel

    raza_rebel Member+

    Dec 11, 2000
    Club:
    Univ de Chile
    Thank you guignol and Dr. Wankler for your comments

    1 - There are distracted driving rules for Virginia, Maryland and DC. It doesn't stop people but I don't know what is worse. People driving while on their mobiles or people who have stopped completely on a major road and are engaged in conversation or texting. IMHO, the latter is much more hazardous, and more callous as you can easily find a side road or a parking lot. This weekend I was running and noticed a car stopped with some a*shat who was on the right hand lane with his emergency lights on texting. I wanted to give him the benefit of the doubt but later she drove past me. I know it was the same car as I looked back and the car that was pulled over and parked was gone.

    2 - As far as the crosswalk I find it better to take my chances jaywalking as well. It will always be a game of "I bet my leg against your car insurance" but at least with jaywalking you are more in control of the situation taking a calcualted risk, instead of at an intersection walking out and hoping the car will obeythe rules of the road, see the flashing crossing signal. Several times I have been cursed at even though I am within my right and the right side of the law.
     
  12. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    Thanks, interesting views. I bolded a part of your post because of course drivers aren't fundamentally bad people. Almost everybody drives so by definition they are just your average person.

    Not everybody bicycles though so in theory they aren't necessarily your typical person (Hint: they could be asswipes ;)). Many seem to have an agenda. Either its superiority complex or bitterness or trying to be cool . None of those are a good attitude to carry while traveling on a road.

    Add to it these people are being exposed to weather conditions which may not be ideal and possibly tired if their commute is long. These additional factors could have the affect of exaggerating any of the above agendas.
     
  13. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    this is the exact point i've been meaning to bring up for some time!

    first of all, the truth of saying "almost everybody drives" is relative. fairly true in most of the US, somewhat less in big cities. crossing over to europe the claim becomes a bit dubious and increasingly so as you get to "socially advanced" countries like holland or the scandinavian countries. each is free to read into that what he will.

    if you remove the negative connotation you're putting on the word i would say all cyclists have an "agenda". and i firmly agree that for some their prime motivation does them no credit: they cycle because it's the chic thing to do. when you're a cyclist you recognize these even more easily than from a car. and among this tribe there are all types, but i would agree that a proportion of them are snottier, more selfish and inconsiderate than the norm.

    but the "agendas" of the vast majority of cyclists include a variety of points and very little if any of the one above: they bicycle to save money, to save time, to get exercise, but most of all they bicycle because they know it's better for the planet, for the economy, for their city, for themselves and for others. it is good citizenship par excellence. the fact that so many motorists skeptically discount these motives and generalize the negative ones says more about them than it does about cyclists.

    now let's look at the agenda of motorists. for some there is obviously none, they truly have absolutely no choice but to get around by car. but in europe or in the greater urban areas of the americas this is not usually the case; here the rationale for driving is purely negative: laziness, selfishness, lack of concern for the world around them.
     
  14. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Mayor Boris J. of London is a fan

    London Mayor Boris Johnson is among many things an urban transit nerd. Since taking office in 2008, he has introduced a new generation of double-decker buses, built a cable car across the River Thames, and has dreams of making improvements to the city’s airports. And when it comes to getting around himself, his favorite mode of transit is the bicycle.​


    Haven't watched the video. It may be worthless.
     
  15. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    well, the replacement for the old routemasters was a material necessity, not a mayoral decision... and the very nice design of the new buses is not his personal doing either.

    the biggest (and most courageous) move to try to free central london from the grip of the motorcar was made by his predecessor "red ken" livingstone: the congestion charge tax on vehicles entering the city center.​

    boris' big calling card is the bike-hire system they call...​

    [​IMG]
    boris bikes.

    here again his merit is not as great as all that since london was well behind the crest of the wave; lyon, paris, stockholm, barcelona, brussels, and montreal* all had similar schemes well before london. and not only the idea is copied off existing models - unless i'm mistaken the london system itself was put in place and is run by montreal's "bixi". and though it's the second largest network in existence (twice as big as lyon's vélo'v which was the first large scale system of this type) it's only 40% as big as paris' vélib that was its direct inspiration.​

    all that said, we have to be pleased that a conservative has at heart to increase public transport and cycling; their usual attitude (even here in lyon) is to try to crush such hippie nonsense underfoot (or rather, under wheel).​

    *also dozens of smaller towns with smaller systems (<500 bikes); just as praiseworthy but less difficult to institute.

     
  16. raza_rebel

    raza_rebel Member+

    Dec 11, 2000
    Club:
    Univ de Chile
    We have retty much the same thing in DC.

    http://www.capitalbikeshare.com/

    It is great. Mayor Fenty put it in and was pretty progressive about it and DC as a whole To bad he was replaced with Vincent Gray.
     
    guignol repped this.
  17. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    I live near the University campus on the edge of the city and always cycle to work in the city centre, about 3 to 4 kilometres. Now the city has done a marvellous thing: they've built a 'cycling highway'. In other words there are no stops, traffic lights, crossings whatsoever for cyclists along that stretch of road between the university and the city centre.

    I love my country sometimes.
     
    raza_rebel repped this.
  18. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    i knew about this system and something made me think it hadn't been such a great success. perhaps it was just the raw numbers in a wiki article or perhaps i was confusing it with something i read about minneapolis which is obviously just not ready for this.

    here's an interesting comparison between london and paris systems (if the table pastes OK; one of the peeeves of new BS and i'm betting 10-1 you'll have to go to this blog)


    Velib
    London Cycle Hire
    Number of bikes
    Initially 10,648, now 20,600
    6,000
    Docking stations
    1,451
    315 (400 originally planned)
    Area covered
    90Km2 in 20 arrondissements
    44km2
    Bike weight
    22.5kg
    23kg
    Subscribers in 1st year
    198,913
    As yet unknown (30,000 in 1st week)
    Funding
    €90m from JCDecaux (about £75m)
    £140m from taxpayer + £25m from Barclays sponsorship
    Annual subscription
    €29 (about £21)
    £45
     
  19. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    when the freight line from grenoble to the lyon city center was abandoned a few years ago they ran a tram line along it and put in a very good cycle pathbeside it which i think of as a cyclist's autoroute: it doesn't go exactly where you want but you can go so fast that the detours involved in using the nearest on and off-ramps often make it worth taking. the major problem is that it's so nice (landscaped, and above all, away from automobiles) that in some parts it's clogged by strolling pedestrians (often with strollers).

    in holland there are lots bike paths that go through fields away from the roads. when i finally convinced my family to go to amsterdam on vacation it was a revelation to all (except myself). first of all, my wife was relieved to find that amsterdam is not the walletjes*; when we took our bikes from our rental in the jordaan to the ferry over the ij and headed out towards monnickendam, wife and kids were all saying, "wow, we should live here!"

    *hashish and hookers
     
  20. 96Squig

    96Squig Member

    Feb 4, 2004
    Hanover
    Club:
    Hannover 96
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    We are thinking about bike highways over here too. Copenhagen perfected that system I think. Hanover would be perfect for it, since it is more spread out than Dutch cities but still very flat (flatter than Amsterdam if you include the bridges in het centruum), but alas it is a money problem at the moment. We do have quite a number of nice bike routes that go independently from roads since the city is very green, but you still have the occasional stop light on the way, and there are too many major streets with no bike path (on the street istelf or paralell to it), so if you want to avoid those you often have to take annoying detours.
     
  21. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    wonderful commuting this time of year, when half the city has taken off for the country. three cases of advanced muppetry this morning and all on vélo'v. first a guy going the wrong way in the bike lane and since it really is kind of his responsability to get out of my way, he does, but when he sees the car behind me is coming faster thannhe though he dives right back in front of me. thanks, bud! then a girl riding on the sidewalk (even though there's a bike lane just next to her), talking on her cellphone, wobbling around and bam, runs into a guy coming out his front door. she actually tried to avoid him but in doing so fell right into him*. you go, girl! the last one ran a red light, not jumped it, flat out ran it, and we missed each other by that much. nice going, champ!

    *actually i doubt the guy minded at all: she was really, really (i mean really) hot and since the weather was too even at 8am she wasn't wearing much.
     
  22. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    we all know that some people just hate bicycles and bicyclists with an eye-bulging passion and no evidence or reasoning can cure them. here are two recent examples:

    going home yesterday evening a guy in an SUV just roars up behind me and even though there's enough room to pass on that street (maybe a bit tight for his behemoth but not impossible) he just stays on my wheel to give me the willies. after about 150 metres of this the street widens out with a bus/bike lane added. mr. nice guy rolls down his window, honks to get my attention and berates me for being in the bus lane. i point out it's a bike lane too, hence all the little bicycles painted on it. his response : "sure, for assholes like you (des connards comme toi, so he's getting personal) any excuse works".

    i'm not sure how using a proper bike lane constitutes an excuse, but whatever!

    then on the way to work this morning i'm coming to a light and since i see it's already turned red in the other direction i freewheel up to it leisurely, hit it as it turns green and a pedestrian yells at me "THE LIGHT IS RED!". i stop to ask him what he's talking about and he says :

    "traffic lights are for bicycles too!"

    i point out that the light turned green as i approached it.

    "but you weren't going to stop!"

    obviously not since the light was green.

    "but it was red when you were coming up to it!"

    we're getting ready to go around in circles now so i just asked him if red lights were for pedestrian too, because he had crossed 100% against a red light.

    "va te faire foutre!"

    very unpleasant, and the TOS will not allow me to translate. but the man clearly has issues with bicycles deep enough to 1) make him lose all sense of common courtesy and 2) provoke visual hallucinations.
     
  23. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
  24. crazypete13

    crazypete13 Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 7, 2007
    A walk from BMO
    Club:
    Toronto FC
    That site is pretty cool, though his analysis of the folding bicycle needs some work. That square is an interesting choice to take a sample of bicycle traffic as it's one of the areas that has the least demarcation between pedestrain/cycle and road traffic. I would have used some of the area around the central station as a good example of how NL cycling pedestrian and auto traffic interact together.

    I spent 18 months with regular travel to NL for work. Spent the bulk of my time in Utrecht, Rotterdam, Den Haag and Amsterdam, and I have to say I absolutely love the bike infrastructure there, and I am totally jealous - considering the gigantic fustercluck that is Toronto cycling infrastructure - though I miss the insouciance of the average Dutch cyclist the most.

    To give you an idea, my commute is roughly 4 km one way. Roughly 1/3 is on a dedicated cycle path, and the final 2/3rd is the typical Toronto hazards of on street cycling: painted on 'bike lanes', mixed traffic, parked/parking cars and always dangerous streetcar tracks ( I get to cross three sets and one intersection switch).

    I bought a Dutch style cruiser (three speed internally geared hub) with the gigantic chain and lock, front and back racks and fenders - it's great for doubling people to and from the bar even. Plus I've got my old mountain bike for my winter beater once the weather gets lousy.
     
    guignol repped this.
  25. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Queens, NY
    Don't take this the wrong way, but the guy in your first story is my new hero! ;)

    Your second story reminds me of a personal incident I had. Except in my case the light was about to turn red for the biker and green for the pedestrians.

    I noticed the biker well ahead of time and it was clear she had no intention to stop even though there was no-way she was going to make the light (not surprising since 99% of bikers in New York don't stop for red lights. They only stop if there are cars crossing, but it requires going part-way into the intersection (thus past the pedestrian cross-walk) in order to see clearly if any cars are indeed approaching).

    Anyway, of course she just cuts off the pedestrians almost running a couple over. Then has the nerve to say "umm... hello?"

    Typical biker. Not even aware that rules of the road apply to them yet still want to be on the road and slow-down vehicle traffic in the process.
     

Share This Page