Best Striker At Their Prime?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Bavarian14, Dec 27, 2018.

  1. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Baggio’s KO round performance is definitely nothing short of sensational . Don’t recall overall performance but the goals he scored were clutch and not easy like Rossi 82. But he didn’t do well in the group stage ... which actually ended up being very tight . Romario wasn’t as sensational in KO round , but was more consistent throughout . Like I said before , he should have netted a few more in the KO round but wasted some chances .
     
  2. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    There are obviously two sides of the spectrum with regards to his goal
    We’ve mentioned one and to be fair there are others who would describe it as a routine tapin

    Personally I would say the build up to that goal completely overshadows the finish(particularly the pass by Jorginho was world class and the assist by bebeto was also fairly good)
    there are obviously a lot of spin doctors who would have us believe Romario played with a bunch of farmers in World Cup 1994
    (As if bebeto wasn’t one of the highest rated attackers in Europe at that time and rai also came with a big reputation from ligue 1- even though he arguably failed to impress at the tournament )

    I have a theory that a lot of north American fans that frequent this forum started following the game seriously or had their interest spiked by the World Cup in the states.
    Coupled with nostalgia which is an extremely powerful drug it can explain why he has such a huge fan base here
     
  3. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Right . It wasn’t a simple tap in but also not a Zidane volley. Trickier than it looks .

    Bebeto was definitely good, but the midfield had no imagination and none of the players were much of a goal threat . They were a hard working midfield . Having said that they kept possession very well in basically all games and also kept their shape . Jorginho at FB was sensational and Leonardo was really good until he elbowed Ramos.
     
  4. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    There are strong arguments for Gheorghe Hagi who for me was the standout performer till the QF
    Hristo stoichkov also dragged a team of nobodies to a SF
    I agree baggio came alive at the most crucial point of the WC and if it wasn’t the most visually impressive KO stage performance it was surely one of the most decisive KO stage performances in recent World Cup history

    Baggio was literally a penalty kick away from top 10-15 all time status
    Which sounds completely ridiculous but unfortunately it is how players legacies Are measured (by armchair experts)
    Romario was a huge beneficiary of luck particularly with his penalty kick that could’ve easily not gone in off the post

    You can only wonder how history would’ve treated Romario without his World Cup golden ball trophy
    Goals scored in the context of major titles Are always given more weight than others
    For this reason I believe George best was potentially underrated quite a bit in the ballon D’Or rankings from 69-72 only because he had an ageing support cast who couldn’t take him over the line

    Scoring 5 goals in a world cup for a box striker in and off itself isn’t groundbreaking Territory
    Scoring 5 goals on a World Cup winning team puts on that extra gloss and on a pedestal that perhaps it didn’t deserve
     
  5. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Maybe so. But then you have Cruyff calling him a genius inside the box . And Van Gaal saying when he was worried about a game Romario would say not to worry that he would score that day and they would win ... and it was true 8 out of 10 times . So there are a lot of people that put him up there .

    I have to say that Personally I do prefer the Baggio type of player though .
     
  6. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    Look at the type of goals Romario is scoring and then you will get more context. There is a difference between Van Basten scoring goals and Gerd Müller scoring goals. The goals Romario scored were of a far higher difficulty than Aubameyang.
    ALSO, when I say Romario did this multiple games, I'm not saying he did it every game. It's not like he had the record for most goals in a season.
     
  7. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    Hahaaa! Of course. Laudrup is class!! He's one of my favorite all time players. Very entertaining. However, Stoichkov had more potency to his game, hence why I put him on top, although Laudrup was more entertaining. Personally I would rather have laudrup and stoichkov in the long run than the combo of Romario (I think)
     
  8. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I have looked at the type of goals Romario score. I know he scored some difficult and absolute beauties. I know there is a difference between the goals MVB scored and the ones Muller scored.

    I have a few points here:
    1. I know he didn't score the most goals. I'm contesting something different. I'm saying he's not a super-efficient a goal-scorer. As in, I'd be very surprised if his shot/on target and shots/goals rate were better than the best finishers today, even if their goals aren't as pretty as his.
    2. Even among the most technical finishers, the vast majority of their goals will still be poacher type goals. This is true of Romario, MVB, or Robin van Persie, who scored some absolutely ridiculous goals. Messi, who has probably scored more difficult and beautiful goals than anyone in the modern era, when he was mainly a goal-scorer, a lot of his goals were still standard striker finishes.

    3. This leads me to my 3rd point. Great finishing is a much smaller aspect of scoring goals than people realize. There is a reason why the most consistent scorers' goals may not seem so impressive. Getting into good positions, and having a good playmaker is the most reliable way of scoring goals. You see this with EVERYONE. It's why a mediocre finisher like Sterling can score many goals, and why Aubameyang has better scoring rate than some more technical players.

    In conclusion, Romario may be capable of the beautiful, but I'm not sure he'd be considered ultra-clinical by our standards (unless you have stats to prove otherwise). Romario score most of his goals the same way other strikers score theirs, because good old regular striker goals is the most reliable way for Romario or anyone else, to score goals.
     
  9. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Post 95 Romario became well known for the type of goals you refer to(poaching/opportunistic tapin goals)

    As far as La Liga 1993/94 is concerned it is true he scored quite a few goals that required a great degree of technical difficulty
    Besides Messi I don’t really see players pulling of chips from outside the box
    The weight of the chip is one of the most difficult shots to master and nowadays strikers just blast it or fire it low


    I’m extremely critical and unconvinced about many of the claims re Romarios greatness but only a fool would deny he was a genuinely GREAT player in La Liga 1993/94
    He had a perfect balance of goals,assists,magic and involvement in build up that went beyond most( if not all )conventional poachers
     
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  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    In line with the rest of your story, RvP has relatively a high amount of spectacular goals (also a lot more 'goals of the month' as an Aguero or RvN before him; as well as many, many injury time goals) because of course he played for a long time not as a striker.
    Even when he started to play as a CF, to some extent he had to 'carry' Arsenal and also a ManUnited on the slide that was really poor in midfield. You can't have it all at once. The 'simple' runs in the box will be blunted. He's one of the few EPL players to have topped both the assists and goals chart.
    Of course there is the technical quality and he shows it sporadically in his very last season now, but the circumstances contribute too imho.



    This is fittingly his very first professional goal (against the #4 team of the league):
    [​IMG]

    Only two seasons where he wasn't injured, sadly, but has a great variation in artistic goals and assists, and has for a foreigner many 'player of the month' designations.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    (here Adebayor was the 'striker', still)
     
  11. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Prime Romario is one of the top 3 all time penalty box killers alongside Gerd Müller and post 2015 Cristiano Ronaldo
    So Cruyff calling him a genuis of the box is an apt description of his role and technique

    However There are many strikers/forwards who contributed considerably more outside of penalty area than Romario
    Including Thierry Henry,hristo stoichkov,Karl Heinz rumminge,Marco Van Basten,Eusebio,Cristiano Ronaldo,Zico,Sandor kocsis,Lionel Messi,Pelé,R9 96-98,,puskas
    I don’t want to make conclusive statements regarding some older legends but there are also arguments in favour of guiseppe meazza and Arsenio Erico

    Romario wipes the floor with most if not all target man strikers but when we are talking about all rounders who could play almost any position on the forward line (and to a relatively high degree )I’m not so sure about him anymore
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    .... he never coached Romario.
     
  13. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Even more amazing !!!!

    Maybe it was Cruyff again . I read it somewhere last week and for whatever reason I thought Van Gaal. I will have to find it again.
     
  14. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Even if Van Gaal did coach Romario his recollection of Romario being such a consistent scorer for Barcelona is unreliable

    I repeat
    During 1993/94 Romario played in 33 La Liga matches and scored in 16 of those.
    There is no way in hell Romario was 80% likely to score in any given game
    This just goes to show that even experts of the game aren’t exempt from exaggeration (especially when they recall the good ole days)
     
  15. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    RvP in his final season with Arsenal and first season with Man Utd scored more Goal of the Month contender goals than most strikers scored in their prime career.

    For me, my favourite RvP goal came in 2009. Most Arsenal fans would agree with me as well.
     
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  16. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    That goal is a blast from the past I haven’t seen it in ages :thumbsup:
     
  17. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    That's for confirming, I suspected that. :thumbsup:
    The quality of teams faced wasn't necessary worse than in the nations wide league, so I don't see why they shouldn't be considered.

    Looked to me really streaky even compared to the pre-Messi/Ronaldo era. I haven't made a direct comparison yet, so it might be wrong. Just my impression.
     
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  18. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    I don't know Romarios score rate but remember we are not taking Romarios career into consideration. I am talking about a handful of games in the 93-94 season.
    It was ridiculous, by anyones standards. Remember , all these modern day players you mention are fresh in the mind and at thebsame time no am watching Romario from that 1 season. Only Messi is close all things considered.
    Of course, everything you mentioned is spot on so I'm not debating things. I can only tell you my perspective on what I see.
     
  19. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    I didn't understand it. It was 80% of the time Romario said he'd score. He could have just said it 13 times for specific games for whatever reason. But I found the quote. I got Guus Hiddink and LVG mixed up. It was at his time at PSV.


    “He’s the most interesting player I’ve worked with so far,” said Guus Hiddink, PSV coach in Romário’s first three years with the club, in 2011. “If he saw that I was a bit more nervous than usual ahead of a big game, he’d come to me and say: ‘Take it easy, coach, I’m going to score and we’re going to win’. What’s incredible is that eight out of the 10 times he told me that, he really did score and we really did win.”

    But here is another anecdote from Romario at Barca told from Cryuff (and I've seen from Romario as well):

    "Cruyff explains: “One time, Romario asked me if he could miss two days of training to return to Brazil for the carnival in Rio de Janeiro.

    “The next day, Romario scored his second goal 20 minutes into the game and immediately gestured to me asking to leave."
     
  20. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    A bit unrelated to the striker completeness category, but check Ronaldo's acceleration in this game vs Valencia where he scored 3 goals ... @6:42 ... it's just insane !

     
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  21. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member

    Jun 1, 2018
    ^^

    Some people in this forum have no idea how fast, agile and how much balance he had in his peak, In a pure competition of athleticism, even those nowadays considered as excellent in football would lose to him.

    A-level athlete before his injury for sure.
     
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  22. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Till this day 20+ years later it remains one of the most devastating and iconic performances of all time
     
  23. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    Nobody will also ever round keepers the way he did. Perhaps unnecessary most of the time, but entertaining to see.
     
  24. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Yeah baggio use to do it aswell relatively often
    It is definitely way harder then it looks and was his trademark
    I remember very fondly R9 doing so against Ghana when he could barely even run
    Every real fan of R9 knew exactly what he was going to do in that moment
    Out of all the golazos that was my favourite

    I was gutted that a tapin striker Like klose took the record but hey that’s life
     
  25. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Easily the most physically gifted striker of the modern era, and we've had some beasts in this era.
     

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