Best Striker At Their Prime?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Bavarian14, Dec 27, 2018.

  1. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Now this is a good question and topic :thumbsup: Will give my 2c later.
     
  3. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    Really? Muller's goals won Germany two major competitions. He has like 3 times more WC goals. Oh wait, I guess you meant Dieter Muller or Luis Muller. :ROFLMAO:
     
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  4. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    #129 schwuppe, Feb 2, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019
    Yeah, except in reverse.
    I don't think there is a player who has as many flaws as Romario and gets so much of a pass for it.

    We keep hearing about Van Basten, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho but Romario essentially played one proper season (93/94) in his whole career.
     
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  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #130 PuckVanHeel, Feb 2, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2019

    I wouldn't claim he has the best national team career or so (his injury issues and premature retirement alone prevents this) but indeed we have to consider some context.

    When he played his 58th and last match for the national team, he was 6th in the all-time topscorer table of his country. Four of the guys above him played in the (prolific) 1950s or before, and no need to say who was the fifth guy.

    The national team rarely played with a clear focal point, or a '100% striker'. See also Italy (a clear elite team) for another national team that doesn't tend to have someone who scores a lot and where the scoring burden gets shared around (their all-time scorer still has 'only' 35 goals).

    Van Basten actually was for a while the 'official' (per UEFA) all-time topscorer of the entire European championships (16 goals, 24 games) - just before the break-up of Europe, this is no bs.

    He played well at euro 1992 and had a goal wrongly disallowed. The call he was the worst of the field against Denmark in the semi final is (imho) pure madness; check the video and you'll see he created a handful chances. France Football rated him the best player of his team that tournament, and the burden was deliberately shared (Bergkamp was supposed to score goals and he did, from 3:11 onward).

    Now there are some guys of his generation (the 1985 - 1995 era, who played a big part of their elite football before the backpass rule etc.) who were more prolific than him. See this. But with the exception of Stoichkov, who is marginally ahead, all of those played for more established and more powerful national teams. I'd say of his era/generation only Papin, Voller and Bebeto are clearly ahead in ratio, and that's without going into the all-round play and the assists. It's a bit similar to CR7 his 0.55 scoring rate for Portugal and his poor record against the good/great national teams.

    For good performances without him scoring, but assisting, check France 1992 or Italy 1992 (second goal - against his Milan buddies!).

    The truth for the 1990 World Cup is that there were internal divisions and this is well documented. With only 2 assists he wasn't great there but, to put it extreme, that's the same production as 'free role' Maradona could show in 7 games.

    I believe his absence for the 1986WCQ was 'catastrophic'. They missed him in the 2nd leg of the play-offs, and they also lost points at home against Austria without him. Yes he might have scored more but in the end (over a longer period of time) the team was (much) better with him in than without him. His replacements were actually decent/good strikers with a proven record.

    Part of the context is also that he actually won a major national team tournament (with a truly 'timeless' performance), which all of his many Milan buddies, then the foremost and richest club team in the world, never did somehow (including the foreigners, minus Rijkaard and Gullit ofc).

    That is before going into the club career, against the good teams and games that matter, where he won a significant European trophy as star performer with a 2nd team (Ajax, another goal in another final).

    Which brings me back to the first sentence.
     
  6. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    hahahaaa! i know exactly ehat you`re talking about
     
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  7. ko242

    ko242 Member+

    Jul 9, 2015
    you make an interesting point. very interesting, and i`ve also thought about this myself. however, i think @La-Máquina makes a great point and i would bet that the vast majority of people on this forum and those with a knowledge of the game around the world would agree with (although it doesn`t mean that it is correct).

    i wander specifically about R9 and Romario, as they have been hotly debated on this forum. As a pure, pure number 9, Romario is better. But as a player, R9 is light years ahead of Romario and it`s not even close.
    HOWEVER, it`s not as easy explained and a slight case could be made for Romario (eusebio another player that comes to mind, although he is better than romario outside the box). Honestly, i think you could make a whole topic about a true number 9 and R9 and discussing whether R9 fits into that role.

    R9 is an unorthodox number 9 but at the same time having qualities that you would want a number 9 to have. Today, i think R9 would fit very well into a role that CR7 and Messi play. But at the same time, he is so good at holding the ball like Ibrahimovic and playing with his back to goal that you don´t really want to move him away from the number 9 position.

    @poetgooner in conclusion, i think your point is very valid and I think you could take this debate much further.
     
  8. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid

    I’ve been saying this for god knows how long
    objectivity completely flies out of the window every time Romarios name is thrown into the discussion
     
  9. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    You could see in this video how lazy Muller is. Barely left the penalty box all game.....
     
  10. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    This performance was surely an exception rather then the rule
    I agree though that people usually have pre conceived notions about Gerd Müller without hardly watching him play
    (Especially if you only watched him at World Cup level you would quite rightly think he eat,drank,shat and slept in the penalty box)
     
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  11. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    I'm going to Romario's games against top teams while at PSV and it's so weird.
    Each season he missed about one third of important games and his scoring seems to unusually streaky. High portion of multiple goal games, but his scoring isn't well distributed.

    No, I don't have exact numbers on that yet, but I think it's something worth looking into.
     
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  12. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #137 carlito86, Feb 3, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2019
    R9 was a forward only for a brief period of time (specifically in 1997/98 and the 97 Copa America)
    these are arguably the best ever stretches of performance he ever had so it would be correct to say he was a forward in his prime

    In 1997/98 he was a second striker so the onus was on him to drop deep and help Inters piss poor midfield,create his own chances and he was also given set piece responsibility’s which showed the complete confidence his team had in him
    (He scored 5 FKs in one season which is definitely in World class territory)

    post injury R9 played out the remainder of his career as an out and out goalscorer so it should only be fair to categorise as a CF.
    Even if he could occasionally play a great visionary ball not everyone was convinced he had the aptitude to play creator+goalscorer at the same time
    His coach Mário zaggalo and even Pele himself weren’t convinced about the hype he was receiving as a future potential GOAT candidate
    In 1997 Pele is quoted to have said
    “The compliments he is receiving are not exaggerated
    I just think we need to make better comparisons.he is not a creative force in both halves of the field the way i and Maradona were. Instead, he is the consummate finisher, like Van Basten.”
    https://mg.co.za/article/1997-01-24-new-pele-has-world-at-his-feet

    Zaggalo his coach pointed out that R9 needed to learn how to pass before any sort of comparison with Pele was justified
    (Btw I don’t say Pele is the ultimate reference point when it comes to analysing players but every shit talker can make valid points on occasion lol)

    The theory that without injuries R9 had the potential to be a goat candidate is based on wishful thinking
    Only complete players are ultimately reserved this position
    For his age I think R9 was the second most developed player behind only Pele
    Comparing him to elite players who played out several seasons at the top level in their 20s(or even 30s) becomes a bit trickier
    So even if R9 did experience a higher peak than some players he is lowered to their level based on the fact that his club career wasnt exactly one for the ages and never did he elevate his teams to the next level
    His greatness as a footballer stems from what he could do as an individual and not from making others around him great
     
  13. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    btw. another thing about Romário

    It looks like his reputation at the start of his career was earned through performances in the Rio state league. Might seem confusing for Europeans how he was such a big star, without doing anything of note in the Brazilian nationwide league in the 80s.
     
  14. TitoTata

    TitoTata BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jun 26, 2014
    Back in the day most of us would only see him play in World Cup matches , maybe even highlights as well
     
  15. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #140 carlito86, Feb 3, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2019
    Even in 93/94 he scored in only 16 La Liga matches which pales in comparison to R9 who scored in
    23 La Liga matches during 1996/97
    (Messi/CR hold the record of scoring in 27 league matches in a single 38 game format)

    Fans like to point out his lack of pens in 93/94 but completely ignore that his goals weren’t evenly distributed(Romario did scored in bunches eve during his standout season
    His 30 league goals included 5 hattricks)
    They (fanboys) also ignore his average record in the champions league,copa Del Rey etc with these competitions being labelled as secondary and inferior competitions

    Winning a World Cup took him to
    a level that his club career was far removed from imho
    I’ve already voiced my opinion re his World Cup 94
    suffice to say that anyone who thinks Romarios World Cup performance is the best since Diego maradona 1986 hasn’t got the slightest clue
    Rivaldo scored the same amount of goals in 02 as a SS/AM(and provided outside of goals substantially more than Romario)
    James Rodriguez provided more goals+assists+contribution to build up positioned as a AM and he did so in less matches than Romario

    TBH I don’t understand the arguments for Romario 94 being better than R9 02 either.
    8 goals is better than 5 and one of them actually turned up in a final
    (Even advances statistics show that their contribution in terms of key passes,shots etc was similar)
     
  16. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Jun 11, 2012
    Didn't Rivaldo and James Rodríguez play after WC94?? So this doesn't exclude Romario94 from being the best in the 87-94 period.
     
  17. celito

    celito Member+

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    That's because the state leagues were still as important as the national league back then. The national league was a mess with the formats back then. It would change every year and included many of the teams you would consider weak. Look at the table for 85, 86.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_Campeonato_Brasileiro_Série_A

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_Campeonato_Brasileiro_Série_A

    For 87 we got a semblance of the top teams in a league format in the same group with the Copa Uniao where the top teams organized the league and not CBF ... but thats a long story.

    Let me also remind you that R9 hadn't proved himself much in the Brazilian league either before he left. He scored a lot of goals in the Minas State league. Bebeto wasn't that prolific in the Brasileirao either and yet he lands in La Liga and does just fine. Which is another point I've made before. La Liga competition wasn't what it is today back then. It's a bit of revisionism and looking with today's eyes to think that playing there was a true test for a player. Bebeto for example had no problems landing at Deportivo and doing very good. Rivaldo wasn't even that highly rated when he left Brazil, and he started by killing it at Deportivo as well if I am not mistaken.

    As for streakiness, could we be just looking through today's eyes again ? I mean, Messi and Ronaldo have really changed the game by scoring so consistently. I don't remember strikers being that consistent back then but I could be wrong.
     
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  18. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Prime Alan Shearer,prime Ronaldo nazario both put up multiple 30+ goal seasons in the mid 90s
    The Brazilian did it in 3 different countries by the time he was 21-22 years old
    Alan Shearer did it from a Blackburn that had recently gotten promotion to the Premiership
    Consistency is a trait found amongst all elite strikers (in all eras without exception)
    Those who struggle for consistency aren’t elite it’s as simple as that
    Romario lacked discipline and focus to take his game to the next level.
    He did not respect the game and therefore cannot expect neutral observers to respect him that much.

    I agree that The test for foreign strikers to succeed in Europe during the 90s was only Serie A
    there wasnt a huge gulf between La Liga,the Premiership and the Brazilian league till the mid to late 90s
    Vasco de gama did in fact defeat treble winners Manchester United in 2000 club World Cup final(Edmundo clearly outshone Romario here)
    Today such a result would be unfathomable(a CL holder to be defeated by their SA counterpart)
     
  19. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    The poster who made the claim about Romario 94 being the best World Cup performance since maradona 1986 did not specify a time period.
    He issued a blanket statement regarding this matter

    The facts are an injured Roberto baggio and Romario entered that final in prime position for best player of the tournament
    up until that final they were widely considered to be at the same level
    The winner usually takes all the spoils and Romario won the golden ball as the officially recognised player of the tournament

    If Italy had actually won that pen shootout we’d potentially be here discussing if Roberto baggio was a top 10 all timer
    That demonstrates in a nutshell how overrated the World Cup is as a gauge for top players.

    there are actually people here who regard penalties as inherently weaker goals but in the same line would argue if baggio had scored one penalty he’d be a much greater player
    I respect the World Cup don’t get me wrong but it generally has tendency to turn otherwise rational fans into complete loonies who would insist a 7 game tournament is worth more that 3 champions league titles
     
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  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #145 PuckVanHeel, Feb 3, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2019

    What a load of (deliberately) deceitful text again;

    Ronaldo scored 12 goals in 14 games in his only nationwide league season.

    Bebeto was in his first eight seasons indeed not amazing but in his last scored 18 goals in 25 matches. How is that not prolific? Won Bola de Prata on top. Yes, in two La Liga seasons he did, excluding penalties, about just as well.

    Rivaldo had 14 in 29 in his last nationwide season; in Europe he was taking loads of penalties. Bola de Prata.

    That is all just better than Romario can show in the nationwide league before his move to Europe. So that observation stands.

    Romario did much better when he returned, but by then his main competition consisted of a host of dudes (Viola, Tulio, Fabri, Washington, Edmundo etc.) who actually flopped in Europe. They weren't all smash hits and certainly not during Romario his 2nd spell.


    The national league is now (conveniently) suddenly not as important, despite the correlation with getting selected for the national team post-1973.


    ... and has been debunked before, across many indicators.

    No Primera Division wasn't the top league of the day, but take a look at the 1994 World Cup squads.

    Even the Brazilian starters were dominated by players in Europe, plus Branco who had played there (but completed only 13 and 19 matches in his last two seasons) and Mazinho who had 'flopped' in Europe and returned after one season.

    The Spanish league had 48 players there, spread across 10 teams. Brazil had 12 players there, spread across 2 teams (1 Colombian player playing in Brazil).

    Of the top 10 finishers only Brazil had players playing in Brazil. While seven of the top 10 had one or more players playing in Spain.

    This can be expanded further but the factfree juggernaut rolls on anyway.
     
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  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Maradona his world cup performance isn't defined by what he did against South Korea, but against the top teams.

    Meanwhile, Romario was hardly amazing against the top teams he faced. Against Netherlands Bebeto was motm (aided by one/two offside goals and a dubious Branco free kick for which he made a foul and then dived; thanks Saudi/islam ref!) and against Italy he was close to invisible. All the other opponents were (way) below that level.

    As important and useful as he was, to claim he had the best World Cup since Maradona is strange imho. As already mentioned, his OPTA stats aren't amazing/great either.
     
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  22. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #147 carlito86, Feb 3, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2019

    Messi laid on 28-30 wide assists and was voted a top 3 playmaker during the same season he scored 73 goals (2011/12)
    https://iffhs.de/history-iffhs-awards-2012/
    R9 was very far away from this kind of level.
    Prime R9 was a complete striker,Messi was/is a complete player
     
  23. PMFmdf

    PMFmdf Member

    May 15, 2016
    Well, there is some truth here (some factual mistakes too), but I agree Ronaldo was more consistent than Romario. The main point about my earlier post was to say Van Basten flaws are hidden in football forums. Most people out there know Romario could be great or invisible even at his (short) peak , but very few know that Van Basten was usually subpar at international level.

    People usually ask why Bergkamp is not regarded as a top 25 like Romario (since Bergkamp looked on par or a bit better in Eredivisie) and actually the first thing that comes to my mind is: because of Van Basten, really. If he had score some goals and his pk in Euro92, Bergkamp would probably have a bigger moment than his great goal vs Argentina in WC98 to be remembered, considering how good he was playing until that point in Euro 92. That´s how things work, fairly or not.

    In the end, Van Basten had a run of 0 goal in 7 games in WC90 + EC92 , plus 2 goals in 14 games in WC qualifiers - one of them vs Cyprus in a 7-1 victory. Despite all of that, he is viewed as the most complete and most consistent out of these strikers, which is not true at all for the later part. Despite all knee problems , Ronaldo had a better peak and was more consistent, mostly because he was more talented since day one compared to Van Basten. Careca, a contemporary of Van Basten, was actually more consistent too, he delivered in league , continental and international level most of the time, even playing in a dysfunctional side as Brazil´90. He just did not have the luxuries to play for a historical side as that Milan team and to be in Berlusconi side.

    All in all, Ronaldo was the only one out of all these strikers who distinguished himself to the others by his own talent , hence why he is labeled as the greatest striker by people who are not consumed by their own obsessions (about their own nationality - sad to watch).
     
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  24. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    Have you considered the possibility Careca didn't have that "luxury" because Berlusconi decided to buy Van Basten instead of Careca? In what way was Brazil '90 dysfunctional?

    Good ol' luxury argument. I see it used all the time. MVB was now coasting off the rest of that side. The Italians were coasting off the Dutch, and the Dutch off the Italians. They all benefited off the system created by Sacchi, who in turn was coasting off having the best players. It's like Barca, where Messi coasted off Xavi and Iniesta, and vice versa. Just a team of players coasting off each other. :D
     
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  25. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #150 carlito86, Feb 3, 2019
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2019
    I commend you for acknowledging some of the hard facts many people don’t like to hear
    However You claimed that I said some things which were incorrect but didn’t bother to point them out

    Non of the so called 3 best strikers of all time(ie ro-ro or MVB )were without their flaws
    The job for us as fans is too weigh up the pros and cons (highs and lows) of each striker against each other

    I disagree with the notion that there is some sort of Dutch inspired secret agenda to cover up Van bastens flop at WC 90.
    Van Basten did not leave his mark in the World Cup(he also retired at 27 years old and he surely would’ve been in his prime at World Cup 1994 most probably competing for the top scorer award or at the very least he would’ve been the odds on favourite)

    Talking about flops
    R9s performance against Manchester United in 2002/03+standing ovation is often used as a beating stick for whoever claims R9 did nothing in the champions league

    The truth of the matter is for such a distinguished talent as R9 he in fact achieved nothing in the champions league.
    what MVB did for Milan in the European Cup especially in deep KO rounds is on a complete different level to either R9 or Romario

    R9 had the most consistent international career out of the 3 and for my own personal ranking he is in the top echelon of international performers
    Van Basten is the weakest international performer but definitely did have the most elite world class seasons at club level
    I’m not sure how R9 could ever compete with MVB in the number of top tier seasons(this is a “non factual statement “ on your part)
    Romario did experience the lowest of lows and I can only be sure he was in that very top bracket during a single season


    Van Basten was superior to R9
    In heading,weak foot and finesse shots(dinks/lobs)
    R9 was a greater athlete,more direct,skillful,powerful
    One thing we can say is R9
    was never the dribbling phenomenon of YouTube compilations against a single great team during his career
    The phenomenon appeared against Valencia,spartak Moscow,compostela,stratsborg,Atlético Madrid,lecce,schalke etc teams that finished in the middle to low range of their respective leagues
     
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