Best Striker At Their Prime?

Psv were so reliant on Romario that they won the eredivisie in 91/92 with him playing only 13 matches

The average scoring of psv when Romario played and hardly played did not fluctuate aswell
With Romario psv scored 84 goals in the 90/91 league season and 78 goals in the 88/89 edition

With Romario hardly playing in 91/92 psv Eindhoven still scored 82 goals in the league
So I think Romarios high percentage involvement has more to do with him being the centre point of his teams attack then him actually raising the level of his team

60-70% of his goals for PSV

He looks here like Ruud van Nistelrooy, slightly more agile,with a better low centre of gravity and a bit more inventive
but that’s it

Like I’ve always said there are at least 20 attackers I can refer to at the drop of a hat who were better than him outside of the penalty area

He simply cannot be compared to prime R9 who was a legitimate threat from anywhere in the opposition half or even Van Basten(peak) who contributed more to build up play,proved himself in more defensive leagues,was more two footed etc
ultimately MVB was a much more decisive player in finals which places him a tier above Romario who failed in many finals (with the exception of the 1989 Copa America final there isn’t a single final he stamped his name on)

Legends are made in big matches and not on opta spreadsheets

 

I'll keep it brief:

Three comments on this:

1) It might be said - as said by himself - he improved his participation (was forced to do) when he entered Barcelona, and even then he was a bit irregular for some (his 1993-94 CL record for Barca is always brought up isn't it). At the same time, it might be said he had his physical peak at PSV (as leadleader observed and I think there is some merit in this in terms of top speed over longer distances and agility-while-moving). Check his sprinting goal against Ajax.

Romario was technically fantastic, but could also be a bit irregular and had sometimes scenes where I think "why trying to trap a ball like that?" when he messes it up (yes, even Baggio, Messi etc. have that but Romario really showed 'illogical' attempts to a touch sometimes).

2) As mentioned/observed by others many times before, Romario his OPTA stats for the World Cup are fairly underwhelming on things like that. The 'fivethirtyeight' tool also shows him below the Z-score for 'progressive passes'. Yes he was important and great, but stats wise he doesn't stand out there.

3) It is typical his strike partner had usually (many) more assists than him. I don't feel the urge to search it again (because it will be ignored anyway), but a quick and dirty search delivers this (from mid season):
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!s...sts/rec.sport.soccer/VIgbgscC8Dk/AJwjDblW_DMJ
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!s...sts/rec.sport.soccer/ANHzHLHntOg/fCYFndQwtyEJ

I can guarantee this is not an exception and was the 'default' situation (Kieft was a good passer actually, as can be seen on Romario's goals collection too).

For Barcelona he had (significantly) more assists in his 1.5 years than in any of his PSV seasons. Arguably also a sign he improved, was forced to do, his general participation.

Yes Romario was good there, to a degree it is possible to say he was better against the top level opponents (Argentina + Uruguay) as he was in 1994 against the top level opponents (Netherlands + Italy).

Also agree Bebeto was good and was often seen as the top guy. France Football rated him as the #1 striker for the 1989CA while Romario was placed #4 or #5 striker.

Bebeto was also decisive in the 2nd group stage, on top of the 1st group stage. First goal against Argentina in a 2-0 win, Romario scored 2nd goal. First two goals against Paraguay, Romario scored 3rd (3-0 win). Created the winning goal against Uruguay for a 1-0 win (Romario scored), although technically Brazil did not need to win against Uruguay.

 

Nice video. I will watch it in entirety later. The sprinting goal against Ajax is at 6:15. Also nice to see the technical skills by Vanenburg and the passes/work by Kieft.

As mentioned on the previous page, they had 6 more points in 1991-92 (when he was injured, came off the bench) as any other season Romario was part of the squad.

Romario is overall one of PSV's club icons and it helps he speaks the language (as does Ronaldo), but what was the newspaper thinking when they placed Litmanen below him? Romario has a room named after him in the stadium, but the 'unanimous' best player of PSV remains Vd Kuijlen.

Litmanen was even still useful in the early 00s when he returned to Ajax (in the middle of the young #10s VdV and Sneijder, and Boussouffa of the same birth-year who went early to Chelsea sadly).

 

I agree with you that ADS shouldn't be in that list. It got posted prematurely.
Sárosi played where needed but often as striker. In 38, he played behind Zsengellér for the NT but at club level, for as I understand it, he was often the big man upfront. It would certainly fit with his mitropa record.

Pitching a few names seemed in order. Also there's a clear top 2 of independent goal scorers that perhaps isn't flashy enough to capture the imagination of the lot.

 

litmanen is just one of those great players from the 90s who didn’t achieve their full potential and as a consequence they have become mere footnotes in the pages of football history

In 94/95 he did achieve a very high peak scoring an absurd amount of goals as a SS/AM
In 94/95 and 95/96 he made back to
Back CL finals and scored 15 goals in the champions league on route to those finals

These achievements alone outweighs any tapin,any league title that Romario won with a dominant psv Eindhoven

Personally i remember him from England when he played for Liverpool
I don’t remember him being anything special but I learnt later on that he had already been through “the wars” and suffered several injury set backs

 

You made that post a number of days ago, but that is one of his better (and representative!) compilations around for sure.

I also like this one, with some 'rare' scenes included like the assist at 5:30


(comments below say rightly it's one of the better and accurate videos around)

Some of my favorite matches/compilations are these:






As well as the matches he played against Barcelona:



https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x46d6jf
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x463wa5
(see the effective nutmeg etc.)

This was close before his final lay-off:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-s7VIP5U6AQ

There are more, in an orange shirt too, but think those show his range of abilities (with some slight variation in style of play) well. His Football's Greatest episode is also rather good.

 

Was unfortunately half-crippled and damaged, but he had his moments in Liverpool. Wayne Rooney became a big fan of him...



I think he is a proper candidate for being the best foreigner ever in the league. Not easy to compare with 70s (Vasovic, Kindvall etc.) and 80s (Lerby, Olsen etc.) guys of course, but is in the conversation.

 

OT, but how about in the late 00s?

 

@greatstriker11 lately I've been goin on a binging watch of top number 9s. Currently I'm at Romario 93/94. His technique and clinical finishing is unreal. I'm astonished. He is a lot better than I thought. But I still got quite a bit to go.

To be honest, I always wandered why you were such a big advocate of him. I saw his WC94 before and it was good. But I didn't understand your fascination with him. When I see him at Barcelona in league play anyway, he is something else.

 

Best striker prime in the box (without the ball): G.Muller
Best striker prime in the box (with the ball): Romario
Best striker prime out the box: Ronaldo
Best striker prime inside/outside the box with/without the ball: M.van Basten
Best striker prime: Ronaldo

 

I'd agree ..

Love the others madly but had no time for Muller who was just a goal hanging , goal poacher ..

They were despised at school and I've never liked them since .. however many goals they scored

 

Can you define what makes Ronaldo the best the best striker outside the box?

Can you also explain how MvB is the best overall prime, but Ronaldo is the best prime? I don't understand the difference.

I think you're severely underrating Gerd Muller's involvement in the buildup play.

 

If I were to grade/rank Ronaldo against the other greatest strikers in terms of some of the below areas, Ronaldo would score highly and top most of them:

- dribbling from deep with pace
- running from deep with pace
- dribbling from deep with accuracy
- control in wide areas
- penetration in wide areas
- shooting from distance (moving position)
- effectiveness on counter attack
- team play in opponent’s half
- strength to retain ball
- getting behind the opponent’s defensive line
- running between the lines
- positioning to lose marker
- positioning to receive ball
- one-on-one battle with midfielders and defenders
- versus multiple defenders higher up the pitch

 

There are many qualities needed to make a great in-the-box striker and an out-the-box striker.

I feel M.van Basten scores very good across the whole board in terms of qualities I’m looking for: he’s technically expectionally talented, he’s involved in build up play and hold up play, lethal with either foot, deadly in air, his volleying technique inside/outside is truly great, he’s quick and physically strong. I think tactically he fits most systems.

However, I feel Ronaldo, who is also complete, and probably the greatest striker of time, scores higher in certain areas that make him the deadliest striker. He is a phenomen because at his peak he combined both the technical, physical and mental skills to deadly and entertaining effect (against some of the toughest marking/tackling).

 

But isn't that unfair to the other strikers? You're giving point to Ronaldo for things that are usually outside the striker's role, but still compares him to strikers.

If Ronaldo does all those things consistently, then surely he'd be more of a forward than a striker. At that point, he'd have to be compared with the other forwards?

It just feels a bit weird to me classify a player as one thing, and then give them points for things that are associated with a different role.

 

I can understand your viewpoint, however:

We are talking about two of the most complete strikers in history (they have more qualities than a limited target-type centre forward).

If you are purely looking at finishing (putting the ball in the back of the net) Gerd Muller is your best striker peak.

But I wanted to share my opinion on the different types of strikers in different roles, pitch areas and systems.

 

I can certainly understand that. My question is then, what is the difference between a striker who do all those things you mentioned, and a forward who also score goals in the box? Why would we classify them differently?

 

The OP is only asking for strikers not inside forwards or wingforwards.

If we were to open up the question to the highest peak ‘goalscorer’, Lionel Messi would be included into the discussion.

 

Change the thread title to centre forwards / number 9's ?

 

I understand that, but if prime Ronaldo was a striker doing all those things, why isn't Messi of 11-12 considered? Why isn't Puskas, or Di Stefano, or Eusebio considered 'strikers' who operated outside the box?

 

Most of these can't do it all at the same time, same game. Ronaldo Luis couldn't and this has been discussed before. Even Messi can't do it all at once when he pulls on a Argentina shirt (possibly because it is a 'lesser' team).

There is some false idea Ronaldo Luis also did a Compostela against the best club teams. He didn't. And yet, his peak (imho) is a candidate for being the best, as said on the first page.

 

I believe Ronaldo was the best striker ever , he was the only one among all these players who made that impression of 'this guy might be the goat,we are watching eternal moments here' for 2 years. As for Romario and Van Basten,I put them in the tier, and It must be said the brazilian had much more scrutiny on his career than the dutch, who is rarely critized in football forums. I gave my 2 cents on them some years ago:

'The others legendary strikers as Van Basten and Romario are just a bit below imho. On a good day, Romario was capable of deliver brilliant performances due to his great technique, as he proved in the 88/2000 period, in some years more often than in the others. He had a great NT career, almost as great as Muller's. I think he delivered the best WC performance post Maradona. But the little man also had his bad days, when he barely touched the ball. His club career is below Muller's. He was not a factor in one out of 3 league titles by PSV (91/92, IIRC). His UCL 93/94 (10 games/2 goals) and his stint in Valencia (12 games/6 goals - not that bad statically, but it was subpar on the pitch) come to my mind as moments that I saw the worse of Romario. Just like Muller, Romario could not hold the title of best player in the world for more than one year. His short period in a big league affected him for sure. He was among the best strikers in the world for many years, but, unlike the others, he was not the absolute best striker in the world for more than 2 years.

As for Van Basten, I believe the dutch had incredible qualities and a very high IQ for football, he really worked for the team and could score in so many ways. But well, even these qualities did not prevent him to had some subpar campaigns on his career. His club career was as great as Muller's, but it must be noticed that there were some years when he barely played and still milan and ajax won the league. For the Nt, I was researching few days ago and noticed that, apart his great euro in 88, he was mostly subpar in the rest of his international career. At wc86 qual., young Basten had a bad Record (6games/1goal - vs cyprus in a 7:1 for the dutch). It can be said he was integral part of the dutch elimination in those qualifiers. At wc90 qualifiers, again, 6 games/1 goal ( an important goal vs germany). At WC90, no goals, a really subpar performance by van Basten at his peak. At EC92,, Van Basten had some good games, but he was scoreless again. Worse than that, in the semi vs Denmark he was one of the worst on the pitch and was the only player to miss the pk in the shootout. At the WC94 qual., he played 2 games (a draw and a lost for netherlands) and did not score. After his injury, the dutch had 5 wins and 2 draws in the qualifiers. It must be said that, among all these strikers, he played in the most defensive Era for sure.'.

 

And I debunked almost all of it back then, or give it the proper balance vis a vis Romario.

But you as Brazilian fanboy (and latin liar) just try it again, with the same debunked nonsense.

Romario has in fact less scrutiny, not more, and has more free passes.