Best Striker At Their Prime?

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Bavarian14, Dec 27, 2018.

  1. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Scoring the goal against Manchester United that got them relegated and he famously didn’t celebrate

    you would barely be 6-7 years old when he was in his prime so I find it highly unlikely you’d remember anything from the mid 60s
    We’re of course working under the premise that you are in fact 60
    years old
    But yeah your excessive trolling of Cristiano ronaldo for years now makes me suspicious that you can’t be as old as you claim
     
  2. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    So only young people can dislike a self obsessed walking , posing ego ?

    Interesting concept !
     
  3. Bavarian14

    Bavarian14 Member

    Bayern München
    Jun 1, 2017
    How highly would you rate Villa? He was as good as anybody in Euro and World Cup. Broke Mario Kempes record of 28 goals with Valencia with an even better GPG in 2009-10 season. Could have extended his career even further if it wasn't for the injury in 2011-12 season. He wasn't as dynamic as he used to be
     
    carlito86 repped this.
  4. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    At his prime more or less the Same level as a didier drogba( even though the latter did not have the chance to shine on the international stage with 10 world class teammates)

    At club level when the playing field Was levelled drogba scored in many fa cup finals,league cup
    Finals and of course the champions league final aswell in 2012
    Kempes was also MUCH more of a creator than Villa
    Kempes was comparable to KHR in that he could play anywhere in the forward line and even as AM
     
  5. Ariaga II

    Ariaga II Member

    Dec 8, 2018
    #55 Ariaga II, Dec 31, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
    Flopping at Torino?
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    That is very harsh I think. Will return to this the coming days.
     
    TitoTata repped this.
  7. wm442433

    wm442433 Member+

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    HUGO SANCHEZ
     
  8. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #58 carlito86, Dec 31, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
    For a single season ie their absolute peak Fernando Torres 2007/08 who surely warrant an inclusion
    In the champions league he scored 6 goals against Arsenal/Chelsea,Porto (Portuguese champions),inter Milan (Italian champions),Marseille and again in the league against Chelsea

    The is a level of contribution against big teams Luis Suarez for example never reached in a single season in England for example

    He scored the winning goal in the European Championship final to clinch the first international trophy in spains history
    He was a real handful in his prime with blistering speed over medium to short distances and his shooting technique was outstanding

    He also made top 3 ballon D’Or losing to a legendary season by Cristiano Ronaldo and I have no reason to believe he was inferior to any current striker today(ie lewandowski,salah,post prime Suarez,Kane,icardi etc)
    Matter of fact I’ll make the claim that his 07/08 version was actually a more frightening prospect than any of them

     
  9. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    I can live with your assessment of Torres in his Liverpool years .. he was basically unstoppable much of the time absolutely brilliant striking performances .... kinda emphasises just how amazing Suarez was in HIS time at Liverpool because Suarez is generally accepted as being Liverpool's best ever player , even above Stevie G and Kenny Dalgleish .
     
  10. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #60 carlito86, Dec 31, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
    No fan with even a simple grasp of football history would ever claim Suarez was the king of the kop

    Only some reactionary fans from this current YouTube era continue to jerk over his 31 league goals half of which were scored against relegated teams

    Suarez won nothing for Liverpool and all of this talk of him singlehandedly this and that well the invisible man Daniel sturridge scored 25 goals+9 assists in 33 matches that season so it wasn’t as if Liverpool had 1 World class player+10 peasants
    Also in terms of dribbling/technique Suarez had nothing on prime John Barnes

    Suarez 11-14 ranks beneath dalglish,Hansen,Barnes,rush and Gerrard in prime+Longevity

    And behind dalglish and Barnes in peak performance
    Dalglish remains the undisputed Liverpool GOAT and even stevie Gerrard with a lifetime service to the KOP couldn’t dethrone him
     
  11. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    #61 TitoTata, Dec 31, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
    The Liverpool fans recently voted Suarez the best ever ... it surprised me as well .

    Can't recall which poll but I'll try and find it .. It wasn't the standard poll for favourite player or best servant it was "best player" to' have played for them . I know Stevie G also rates Suarez as the best player he'd ever played with ..

    When he retired, Steven Gerrard was asked who was the best player who he’d ever played with and he didn’t even stop to think - “Luis Suarez. By a mile”.




    You have a ridiculously poor manner about you when you comment on other people's opinions opinions .
     
  12. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    #62 TitoTata, Dec 31, 2018
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
    To be honest there are a hundred other footie forums about so I'm considering leaving you nice people in peace .


    I'm wondering if the two WUMS Carlito and his alter-ego Celito who are probably the same guy :)

    There's only about 7 of us who post in the footie threads so with me probably leaving and the Dumb and Dumber possibly being the same person it will just leave the five of you .

    Enjoy
     
  13. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    6th place
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/f...8/Best-Liverpool-players-ever-the-top-50.html

    Fan poll with 100s of votes
    5th place finish behind dalglish,Barnes,Gerrard,rush
    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....l-football-greatest-ever-players-13169454.amp

    If you said Suarez was better than Torres at Liverpool that’s fine and totally acceptable
    However you went on to spread misinformation when you claimed there was a general consensus that he had surpassed kenny dalglish and Steven Gerrard at Liverpool

    Those who have experience of 1980s football and today would at best say he was one of the most talented to play for Liverpool
    But to be considered the greatest with 0 trophies is impossible and especially for a club with as rich a history as Liverpool’s

    Only on the YouTube comment section is this possible where greatness is defined by the aesthetical quality of your goal whilst trophies and performances against title contenders aren’t given consideration

    A player with 0 league titles+0 champions league titles+0 FA cups cannot be the greatest player of a club like Liverpool that has 18 league titles+5 European cups

    It is as simple as that
     
  14. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    To be fair the only SIMPLE thing around here is YOU ..

    Happy New Year !!



    Incidentally you don't have to win things to be a great player ... one of the best players I've seen is Matt Le Tiss and he won diddly squat squared . Many rate George Best as possibly the best ever yet people like you claim he can't be as he won nothing with his country ...same as George Weah

    Bollox
     
  15. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    George best won Manchester United’s first ever European cup.
    Matter of fact he won the first ever European Cup by a English club side

    George weah won the scudetto with Milan as the WPOTY
    Suarez won nothing so before you bring examples of other players at least do your research

    Happy New Year oldie!!!!
     
  16. TitoTata

    TitoTata Member+

    Jun 26, 2014
    That's just playing with words ... the argument goes than Messi can never be seen as being equal or better than a drugged up Maradonna until he ( Messi ) wins a World Cup ...
     
  17. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Was maradona drugged up in World Cup 1986?
    Messi just happens to be a serial winner at club level with around 10 league titles and 4 champions leagues
    And yet again you here creating strawman arguments because you have been utterly defeated by a man Less than half your supposed age

    Suarez with 0 titles can never be the GOAT of a club like Liverpool which is one of the most successful clubs in history
    Greatness isn’t only dependent on talent but decisiveness,longevity and service to the club
    Suárez was an inferior player to Gareth bale and robin Van persie In 2012/13
    Matter of fact he was also widely considered to be his countries second best striker in 12-13 after Edison cavani

    1 overrated PFA season with some nice highlight reel goals against 18th place Norwich/West Brom And other premier league pretenders while going M.I.A against title challengers isn’t greatness

    So Suarez with 0 titles isn’t and cannot be the Greatest Liverpool Player Ever
    As for Messi vs maradona
    Maradona remains the GOAT for the NT and Messi has a clear edge at club level

    Now goodbye mate
     
  18. JoCryuff98

    JoCryuff98 Member+

    Barcelona
    Netherlands
    Jan 3, 2018
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Torres was also good technically iirc.
     
  19. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    7 goal gap between Torres and Suarez is pretty big though. That's a lot of goals. Not to mention, Suarez was an assist machine that year as well. I'm sure the assist gap is probably around 7 as well. So that's at least 14 direct goal contribution difference.

    There's also the defensive contribution which is not even close between the two. Torres was an important counter-attack outlet, but Suarez was vital to the Liverpool's pressing game.

    I don't think Torres 07-08 league form was actually close to Suarez 13-14 league form.
     
  20. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #70 carlito86, Jan 1, 2019
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2019
    As a complete season including champions league and the Euros Torres 2007/08 clearly overtakes Suarez 2013/14

    Torres euro 2008>Suárez WC 2014
    Torres champions league 07/08>>>>>every other club competition Suarez played in 13-14 where he did nothing (ie FA Cup,league cup etc)

    Torres made the ballon D’Or podium for his complete season performance
    For voters the buck doesn’t stop at league performance which is why Henry did not win the 2003 ballon D’Or and nedved (a great champions league performer) did
    And there are many more examples of European Cup/champions league performances being given precedence over league performance

    Not to mention Suarez played in a defensively suspect eague
    The premier league in 13/14 averaged 2.77 goals per match compared to 2.64 goals per match in 07/08

    Added to this in 13/14 premier league teams were thoroughly dismantled in the champions league compared to the 07/08 edition

    In 13/14 only 1 English team (ie Manchester United )made it to the CL quarter finals where they were promptly knocked out by Bayern Munich
    In 07/08 3 English teams made in to the Champions league semifinals including FC Liverpool and there was in fact the first and only all English Final

    Added to this Suarez couldn’t even score a single goal against a relatively weak English top 4.
    So in reality Suarez played in a declining period of the EPL and even so failed as game changer against every single title contender he faced.
    He also scored a disproportionate amount of his goals against relegation sides

    I know your argument is strikers score a lot of the goals against weaker sides
    That is certainly true but not applicable to in this scenario when the weaker sides he scored against were mostly in fact the sides not even good enough to be in the premier league to begin with
    Against mid table teams he was much less dominant and against a comparatively weak top 4 he did nothing

    Suarezs goals weren’t evenly spread out in the first place
    Meaning he wasn’t even a consistent performer in 13/14
    His goals+assists were heavily concentrated in the first half of the season

    From January to May 2014 he scored 12 goals in all competitions(in the previous 3 months he scored 19)
    So really if we did a pros and cons list Suárez hasn’t got much in his favour

    Playing for a so called “weak” Liverpool side isn’t an argument
    First of all Liverpool pre Suarez and post Suarez was a traditional top 4 team
    Second of all strikers that weren’t even that special like Kevin Phillips scored 30 league goals in a single season playing for Sunderland 1999/2000

    So scoring 30+ league goals in and of itself doesn’t necessarily constitute as greatness
    What also matters is what proportion of your goals you scored against teams that actually know how to defend
    It’s not like the premier league in 07/08 did not have its fair share of defensively inept sides
    in fact it had Derby county arguably the worst side in English football history
    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....er-season-told-men-who-were-there?_format=amp
    Difference is ronaldo/Torres weren’t complete flat track bullies by taking complete advantage of such a miserable side that shipped in goals by the tonne


    So really the argument that Suarez is the best based on the fact he didn’t take pens would only be a strong if his season fitted the other conditions of what constitutes as a great season
    Ie regular scoring over the course of an entire season
    being a game changer when facing other direct rivals for the title you are in effect competing for

    Also this isn’t a condition but a mere observation I have made that Henry 03/04 scored 30 league goals while competing to a high standard in other competitions,same as ronaldo,same as Van persie or even salah

    Suárez benefitted more than many would like to admit from playing once a week for most of the season because his team got knocked out of every other competition pretty early in the season

    We can only imagine how many goals Cristiano Ronaldo would score if he was rested and made 1 appearence per week for the duration of an entire season
    So in effect there is no competition because the circumstances hugely favour Suarez over most/all other great premier league PFA winners
     
  21. tLB Odiseo

    tLB Odiseo Member

    Necaxa, Galatasaray, Real Madrid
    Dec 18, 2011
    México
    Club:
    NEC
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    Ronaldo 1997
     
  22. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Most of R9s iconic solo goals for Barcelona were scored in 1996
    The hattrick vs Valencia,the solo vs compostela etc
    In the second part of the season he looked to be more reliant on goal service

    R9 1997/98 for inter Milan is most probably the best ever season by a number 9
    I have only seen people with a kind of youngish mentality argue that R9 1996/97 is his best
    His all round game and close control dribbling in Spain doesn’t even touch anything he did in Italy

    R9 was a flipping extraterrestrial in 97/98,like every match day was a highlight reel
    Even under the worse conditions of mud pitches he was the exact same player
    The performance he gave against spartak Moscow in the uefa Cup semis proved that


    I think puck made a good point about R9 in Holland that totally escaped me
    Even though he was a prolific scorer from the start and a gifted athlete he still made many mistakes associated with youth (when to pass,his first touch etc)
    Every year was literally an improvement on his previous form

    Nobody peaks at 19/20 years old which was what he was for Barcelona
    It is only natural then he improved in subsequent seasons and in his last injury free peak season he was almost a finished article
    Even his finishing in front of a goal was a work in progress.
    during his peak he was a volume shooter however for madrid in particular he became more clinical requiring less chances to score
     
  23. Motterman

    Motterman Member

    Jul 8, 2002
    Orlando, FL
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    He didn't celebrate, yes. But United were already relegated due to other results, so it didn't technically relegate them. It's a folk tale to make City feel better about themselves.

    Would have expected Ruud Van Nistelrooy to get more of a mention. Anytime he was on the ball inside the penalty area, he was a threat to score.
     
    carlito86 repped this.
  24. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    @PuckVanHeel
    Is there anything beyond scoring 5 goals in a single 7 game tournament to substantiate Romario being ranked about Thierry Henry or Luis Suarez who had multiple seasons where they were in the mix for top 10 player in the world?

    Pre 1993 Romario doesn’t seem to have gained any serious recognition in Europe
    even if eredivisie was widely viewed as an inferior league it was still possible for his contemporary Dennis bergkamp to finish 2nd place in the ballon dor and top 10 in the FWPOTY(Romario was eligible for the latter of course)

    Romario doesn’t gain recognition as a truly World class player till he is 26-27 years old whilst his period at the top was very short indeed 93-95.
    the level of his direct competitors for individual accolades was also arguably inferior to Henry’s(vying for awards against “the GOAT prime” of Ronaldinho)and definitely inferior to Suarez’s competition (Messi/ronaldo needs no introduction)
     
  25. Ismitje

    Ismitje Super Moderator

    Dec 30, 2000
    The Palouse
    Club:
    Real Salt Lake
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Hey @carlito86 - cut it out with trolling this fellow, okay?
     

Share This Page