Repped for the idea Its a Great proposition for a thread Should be set with some guidelines to ensure a fruitful discussion(with sources from the relevant time period taking precedence over conjecture) Ive said what i think re hazard ATM he has had as many great seasons as nearly anyone If we are talking strictly about EPL impact he has 3 seasons where he is in contention for player of the season(that is the same as CR and slightly less than henry) In 13/14 and 17/18 he was also amongst the best players in the league https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.da...g-Chelsea-star-course-good-Ronaldo-Messi.html Technically he is statistically the most prolific dribbler of the PL era and IMO the best conventional dribbler the english game has seen since george best(even if his form does fluctuate his dribbling end product hardly does) If we are considering him to be a PL great/all timer than it must also be said his lows are the worst (15/16 was a disaster) His competition would be as youve already aluded to ryan giggs with 20 years longevity as a first team player for manchester united Honestly i dont think he beats him all things considered 30+ assists in the CL Averaged more PL assists per season(with almost 200) The trophies The iconic cup final goal vs arsenal 99(hazard scored a similar goal albeit against a much worse version of arsenal) To play devils advocate i dont think its fair to say because giggs wasnt recognised as the best in any single season so his peak was neccesarily lower It could just mean giggs came against tougher opponents for top gongs(ie prime ballon dor podium eric cantona) In 1993/94 giggs scored 17 goal+14 assists as a LW on a team that didnt score nowhere near as much as manchester city (where sane and sterling had similar stats i think) http://www.redcafe.net/threads/manchester-united-goals-and-assists-1987-88-today.396084/ And anyways giggs played as a real winger not forward as todays pseduo wingers https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer/english-soccer/ken-early-mohamed-salah-is-not-a-truly-great-winger-1.3306153?mode=amp
Well, unsurprisingly I disagree with most of this (though I don't have specific moments at hand). Llorente could work freely with his elbows and going physical suited Tottenham better. They have imported Premier League standards to the Champions League, for now. Admittedly Lahoz (the Spaniard of the first leg) was better than he usually is.
Also good that the 'smart spurs' trope gets some calling out: It is an interesting final which we haven't had before but if Ajax had made it it really would have been a team who aren't mega-rich but are very smart in their strategy.As it is we have two teams who are both mega-rich but also smart. That's fine but tell it like it is.— Simon Gleave (@SimonGleave) May 9, 2019
I think this is partially true in that, by normal standards, Spurs are very rich, but by CL standards we aren't. Yes, we generate a lot of revenue but Spurs have something like the 14th highest wage bill in the world and it is something around a third of Barcelona's. There isn't a lot of difference in wages between Spurs and, say, West Ham or Everton and yet we have finished in the top 4 repeatedly and are now in a CL final. There are few big transfer fees paid but by modern standards, again, not a lot. It's not some sort of fairytale for Spurs to go so far but is a notable accomplishment. What is odd though is that it's been done during a season in which since Christmas we've been really poor. In previous years Spurs have come good in the second half of the year but this time we've capitulated and very few of our players have hit the levels they're capable of. I still don't rule out being pipped to the top 4 by Arsenal.
My take is (a bit) different from yours: 1. While Ajax has certainly an 'arrogant' side to them (one of the reasons I'm not a fan; another is that the stadium is half empty if they are 4th in the table, lol), and there is a long history of injury time defeats during deep runs of dutch clubs (2005 AZ and PSV in the semis; 2003 Ajax in the quarter), the thing is they sing 'don't worry about a thing' every game before half-time. It actually originated during dire times. The meaning of that was twofold: 1) a certain cynicism, 2) it's only a game. They also sing it when they are 4-0 behind at half-time. That's the truth. 2. Even many 'big four' journalists c.q. mouthpieces are not ignorant and oblivious to the fact Ajax was an unwanted guest to the party (also made obvious by the impending reforms). If the refereeing is so warm to Ajax, then you just don't assign three times a German referees to three knockout matches, much less so twice a referee from Munich in two knock-out matches. There can be no discussion about that (it's like a Serbian referee in the World Cup final of Croatia; the scenes of 20 years ago where Madrid referees officiated Barcelona games). At the same time, a few years ago there was public panic at the UEFA when English clubs performed poor, it was costing too much viewers and money (said by themselves), and apparently importing PL refereeing standards to the CL was part of the 'solution'. G14 referees are a real thing and even handpicked by the big clubs (Juventus handpicked the referee in 2004 for their match against Ajax - 100% proven). At any rate, Ajax was an unwanted guest at the party - a party now formally co-owned by the big clubs (let's not be naive) - and the referee assignments don't disprove it at all. 3. Very costly for them was the injury of Neres, who is important for pace and depth to their play. Justin Kluivert would have been a fine back-up but he (or Raiola did?) moved to Roma. 4. The 'critical mass' generating media totally inflate Tottenham's achievement. Their wages are very comparable to Atletico Madrid and Borussia Dortmund (keep in mind the weak pound) and since that fiscal year (with zero wage growth) they've upgraded the contracts of the manager, their directors, the star players (for ex. Kane, Alli, Son, not yet Eriksen). It is sold as if it is more formidable than Atletico making it - it is not. For sure all those contract upgrades will increase the gap to the field below the top six. Let's see how their 2018 and 2019 sheet will look. 5. Funny, someone noted that the past fifteen years pretty much every big clubs from a big country has made the CL final. Real, Barcelona, Atletico. Liverpool, Spurs. United, Chelsea, Arsenal. Bayern, Dortmund. Milan, Inter, Juventus. Only City and PSG did not.
Just going back to this with one last thought (I know it's really not a 18/19 issue, aside from introducing the VvD aspect, and likewise Hazard maybe at a stretch). I'm kind of wondering if two different teams would be an interesting idea. One picked purely on peak form and peak period (fairly short-term) in general, and the other on more of a long-term basis requiring a number of prime seasons and considering to an extent a large number of seasons. Off the top of my head at the moment, I feel like my own choices would vary quite a bit. If going with a 4-2-3-1 or 4-4-1-1, as most suitable choice probably (not to rule out flatter 4-4-2 or 4-1-3-2), maybe I'd have at least 5 differences (assuming I might put P.Schmeichel, Irwin, Gerrard, Vieira, Bergkamp and Henry in both selections - I could see that those would be far from unanimous, or double-unanimous choices for everyone, especially in midfield although I suspect Vieira would feature in your choices but then again from what I know I'm pretty sure Ashley Cole would displace Irwin in at least one of the choices you'd make yourself). I might already be at a point where I would seriously be thinking of VvD in the shorter-term selection (not just saying this to make the post slightly relevant to 18/19 lol!) - maybe alongside Carvalho actually. But for the longer-term choice it'd be two different centre-backs (despite what's been said about Ferdinand's deficiencies maybe I'd stick him in with Hyypia even). Petrescu, although best as a wing-back, might go into my prime XI selection, but I guess it could be Gary Neville for the longer term XI. And likewise over the longer term I'd be thinking Beckham over CR7 and Giggs over Pires. In essence my longer term selection would have a lot more Manchester United representation I suppose (even if there'd be cases like Cantona vs Bergkamp where the Arsenal player's case is enhanced over the longer term, due to the early retirement of the United player). I think both ways of making the XI can be interesting anyway, so maybe worth considering splitting them up rather than attempting combined criteria (which in effect can lean towards the longevity aspect automatically, once it starts being considered at all).
Or for that matter 3-5-2 or the newly-popular 3-4-2-1, and certainly more of a 4-3-3 or 4-1-4-1 could be popular and justifiable depending on selections made now too I'd think. In some cases (Gerrard vs De Bruyne?; Zola vs Hazard?) formation picked could seem to impact player choices too I suppose though, potentially.
Ajax has now won the first double since 2002, well done, but it should have been better. The future doesn't look great, for reasons said here: https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/48212573 The impending football reforms are (again) seriously bad news for football. Already established teams at the summit have never opted for dutch players (if it only were for marketing/commercial reasons), while clubs with upward ambition have often done so (with success; like Barcelona, Milan, Arsenal etc.). That will be more like a thing of the past if it becomes a closed shop. That wages are falling relative to income is a signal the elite clubs become the kingmakers now.
Yes in my view, Aubameyang may have scored one more PL goal, but Aguero has 32 in all comps and counting, this includes in the CL and has already won the League and League Cup and could get a domestic treble. Lets not forget his hat tricks vs Chelsea and Arsenal in a week, key goal versus Burnley, again yesterday after City went one down...I also see Aguero was much more involved in build up play this season than previous seasons...before Bernardo Silva's great run of form, Aguero was being classed as City's best player behind Sterling and in top 3/4 in the league. As for top tens this year, I think for the PL VVD and Sterling are definite and even maybe top fives but Silva, Aguero, Mane & Hazard are good shouts. The more successful a league is in the PL normally drives the number of league performances into play. La Liga in recent years has had 5/6/7 in the top ten and while the top end of that might be pushing it 5 or even 6 is possible.. Outside PL my only other definites so far in my head are Messi, Ronaldo and Mbappe. Edit: I also quite like De Jong & Tadic in a top ten also...
I heard today on the radio Salah (who is seen as having a somewhat disappointing season, not entirely without justification but maybe a victim of the standards he had past season) his actions were good for 2.5 times more points than Sterling. Can't remember the exact number they said but here is one for only the goals (not assists or other moves) Raheem Sterling did win the football writers’ player of the year to match Van Dijk’s PFA award, but some of that – as the very award indicates – felt as much to do with his influence on the media as on the game, even if he was often sensational. The England international’s goals were directly responsible for 12 points, which was one less than Sergio Aguero – and 12 less than Salah’s remarkable 24. https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...liverpool-title-race-news-table-a8911026.html
One point on this I do find it odd re a player earned the points or "directly responsible", for example in a 3-2 win one player can score two and another the winner and the person with a winner "claimed" the two points, this ignores the other players goals, also whether a defender has performed key goal stopping interceptions, challenges, keeper saves etc.. Flip this and VDV is direct responsible for relatively few points from their measuring but has clearly been Liverpool's best player... Also looking at Liverpool's game this season, Firminio and Mane come up as often the person with the winner or goal to seal a draw so interesting to see how they fair... also with City, its often they beat teams by more goals so in a 4-0 who is "directly responsible" for the points if many different goal scorers?
I think in Liverpool, they have three players that are more or less equally important and that could hurt them in the Ballon D'Or voting. If I had to make a call, I'd say Salah is the most important because while he doesn't score more than Mane he creates a lot of goals as well. While VVD is a monster defender, he is part of a well-oiled machine. Defense is always more about the system than individuals. That's why their defense held on even without VVD like 1st leg against Bayern.
As I said it's swinging a bit too much to the other way right now (imho) but Liverpool did look shaky and nervous on Anfield, not the least the goalkeeper, against a not-so-great Bayern attack. It might have been fatal on another night. In the second match the difference was clear to see. The Liverpool winning machine played three matches without VvD this season and they didn't win one of them (with Salah featuring in all three). This is also a pattern that - as known - holds for past seasons. It's hard to argue against his impact/importance (up there with the best of his country) but it's easier to make the claim Salah is just the better footballer (even his compatriot Wijnaldum more skilled when he's sharp and fit and his touch is on). Salah is somewhat a victim of what he did in 2017-18, that was numerically Ronaldo-esque (once again it is difficult to maintain such stellar level in the PL for more than one season; maybe City would be the perfect platform right now).
Note sure I agree VVD is part of a well oiled machine, he is the conductor and driver of that defence, take him out and out and out another in and suddenly they are significantly weaker, his leadership and organisational abilities should not be underestimated.
Agreed but it's not just him. I think without VVD, that Liverpool team will still be very good defensively. As they were in the 1st Leg against Bayern. IIRC the Germans didn't have a shot on target the whole match and VVD didn't play that one.
Thing is Bayern had a 30% higher 'expected goals' in the game he didn't play (source: Michael Caley), the match at Anfield, thus the away fixture for them. Also, when he arrived halfway in 2017-18 the improvement was already substantial (and that's before the goalkeeper came). They clearly became a lot better in the second half of 2017-18 with him doing well in the CL ko games. There's also somewhat of a case possible he has helped the organizational development of the players around him (Joel Gomez has said he improved drastically because of VvD), so that indeed they can also cope while absent, but that's always very hard to properly judge and almost impossible to objectively see. The numbers are however favorable. In general: one game says very little. Over a longer period of time patterns become visible. In general I think Salah was better in 2018-19 than he gets credit for (how does it compare to CR7 in 2008-09 for instance?) and VvD now receives some over-compensation.
It doesnt Maybe in the league(even though manchester united scored like 30 less PL goals and the league as a whole was relatively low scoring) but definitely not comparable in the champions league(like unequivocally so) Saw where this was going with the "numerical" comparison(between cristiano 08 vs salah 18) despite them playing in totally different tactical setups one as a free roaming midfielder and the other as a striker who drifts in from wide as TH14 Is shearer/andy cole and their end product compared to cantona? Is cavani/mbappe and their end product compared to neymar? Is kluievert and his end product compared to rivaldo? Is etoo and his end product compared to ronaldinho? Is diego costa and his end product compared to hazard? NO!!! 42 goals for a player who is officially a midfielder is unprecedented For a striker not so much (As andy cole,ruud van nistelrooy,harry kane or recently Mo salah)
I know we discussed this before mate, but while I can see that in some games it was nominally 4-4-2, I did seem to recall 4-3-3 (with 3 attackers - 2 starting wide but not as midfielders) was a much used system and this link seems to agree: https://redrants.com/the-tactics-board-is-fergies-solution-the-4-2-1-3/ I think with Giggs being a different kind of player by then it'd be somewhat of a 4-3-3 in effect even when C.Ronaldo did start nominally right midfield and Tevez/Rooney together up front, as Giggs would stay quite deep and tuck inside I think. But certainly when it was 4-3-3 then the 3 forwards had licence to stay upfield. Henry at Arsenal was in essence a central striker, but just pulled to the left wing quite a bit during games and then drifted in as you say. I think you understand this but I'm just being certain. At Barcelona obviously he played a left-wing role, and unlike in the Man Utd system of 07-08 not one in which he'd roam from the wing much (he said Guardiola told him not to) so that was quite a bit different to how it was at Arsenal. In 06/07 I think it's true that United still usually used 4-4-2 isn't it, but that's certainly not clear cut to me for 07/08. I think in fantasy league games C.Ronaldo would be classified as midfielder because of playing as a winger in the previous season, but in effect in 07/08 I think attacker is much more accurate to be honest (sometimes striker too, but mainly wing forward).
This one too: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/03/20/teams-of-the-decade-3-manchester-united-2006-09/ (which explains that the formation wasn't constant but talks about a fluid front 3 also) I have noticed that in some games (that can be seen on YouTube or Footballia nowadays) 4-4-2 would nominally be correct though, and occasionally also that C.Ronaldo played as central striker as I said.
4-3-3 was used in the champions league(11 games) with rooney,ronaldo and tevez used as interchanging attackers In the final vs chelsea he was reverted back to a orthodox winger In the PL(34 games) he was always without a exception a midfielder All his PL games from this season are available and his starting position was as a right midfielder Premier league team of the season listed him as a midfielder Uefa team of the season listed him as a midfielder He was ranked as the 2nd best playmaker in europe after xavi hernandez https://iffhs.de/history-iffhs-awards-2008/ Salah was listed by all sources as a (wide)striker(only jamie carragher was in denial and insisted he was a winger lol)
I don't believe that is true mate, certainly the 'without exception' bit, and those links I showed don't talk of only the CL. I agree by the way that in the Final actually the line-up could be deemed a kind of 4-4-2 with Ronaldo sticking to a winger's role in the main (vs Roma, as stated, he played as striker in a 4-3-3 in contrast). Teams of the Season don't always match perfectly with formations actually used. In this game he is playing in a 4-4-2 I think, but as a striker (or free-roaming second attacker): (I know the co-commentator calls him the 'Portuguese winger' at one point but I don't think too much should be read into that) This one too: So that's in addition to when he played in a front 3 with Rooney and Tevez as described.
I remember the first vivdly(where he scores via cutting in from the wing?) I dont remember him playing as a striker here(spending alot of his time on the wing actually) Maybe not as a touchline hugging winger but definitely spending a large proportion of the match in wide positions The derby match i dont recall in any sort of detail so will skim through later There are matches i believe ive referred you to where he is a conventional winger(middlesborough away,portsmouth away and mainly matches in the first half of 07/08 After which he started to drift more centrally) Against aston villa home he is a playmaker/inside forward with involvement above and beyond any conventional striker (As he is in some CL groupstage matches vs sporting lisbon and dynamo kiev for example) His dribbling and all round influence did fluctuate(more dangerous,agile and inventive before his march 2008 injury as puck has pointed out aswell) Probably his best dribbling league performance of the season John champion who use to give commentary on setanta sports seems to adamant here after watching ronaldo dribble 4 players in 1 run that he is as great as george best ever was The co commentator thinks more longevity is needed even if he is at that level