I'll reply to this here (hint: it is mildly critical and a bit nuanced) I like his rebounding after the underwhelming away game. Despite that game and now coping with some sort of foot injury (forced to train separately) he was important against Newcastle with a goal and giving the right instructions for the winning free kick (inswingers harder to defend), and now rebounding well in the 2nd leg. Yeah here’s Van Dijk running away from Messi hahaha and we went on to score the third goal after a few passes 😂 pic.twitter.com/XiNRRXNm32— DG (@comegetmemami) May 8, 2019 He was very good again (and again not dribbled past or beaten in duels... most of the chances Barcelona created actually came when he had gone further up field, like the chance before half-time and the Suarez shot around the 50th minute) but that he's now #2 in the bookmakers odds is quite insane. http://sports.williamhill.com/bet/en-gb/betting/e/14296662/.html I actually think he was very underrated at Southampton (for previous argued reasons; the equally high WhoScored ratings, great games against City and Liverpool, Southampton doing very poorly without him etc. - all the dismal NT games also came without him playing) but this feels like swinging it to the other way. Clearly he's made a good impression and I can go a long way with the thoughts behind all this (in there also a McGrath comparison @PDG1978): That’s not to suggest that there haven’t been good ball-playing defenders – they’ve existed for as long as any can remember – but rarely have they been as important in the build-up as now (discounting liberos).[...] Gone, seemingly, are the days of defenders either being enforcers or creators – at least if you want to win at the highest level. Defenders are now required to fill both roles, to be both warrior and poet. https://thesefootballtimes.co/2019/...ender-is-catching-up-to-the-game-around-them/ The only people who doubt VVD, are people who aren't watching him. VVD is like the defender's answer to what we've seen from Messi and Ronaldo. We've seen physically dominant powerhouses, we've seen ridiculously athletic speed demons, we've seen giant defenders who clear everything, we've seen a massive influx in ball playing defenders. But they all tend to have some massive weakness, or multiple and are massively reliant upon their partners. VVD is all these archetypes rolled into one, without a real weakness, without any reliance upon his partner, doesn't matter who it is, VVD is VVD no matter what. Absolutely dominant, always present, rarely making a mistake, covering for his partners flaws over and over again. And the man can play football, he can play football really, really well. Hes literally everything. Hes an athletic freak. If people think hes just some defender in good form, you aren't paying attention. This is not a usual player, this is a walking defensive god. And you know what, you know what? Hes under-rated. His def should be higher, his response is arguably his best aspect. And the comparison with Ferdinand, is laughable to me. Go back and watch some Ferdinand, the man was a constant disaster, whether it was exposed or not. He was always leaving his partner for dead, always getting caught out, being so aggressive and dumb. Watch VVD and you'll see so little of this, and hes covering for his partner acting dumb time and time again. https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/...149c34319a6032fb332afc54e51&start=120#p597039 VvD himself said to attack is harder and asks more energy than to defend; he also said the midfield and attack in front of him helps. He said that while defending is as important as attacking, to be creative is more demanding. Then there is also a world class goalkeeper now of course, even though Allison does make clear cut mistakes for a keeper of his standard and can be nervous (like that Bayern match without VvD where Allison had some slippery moments) and there was already a very big and noticeable improvement in the 2017-18 season. If this all is some sort of compensation for previous neglect (by the media and fans, not the ones who control the money purse) then it is better to digest and nice but otherwise a bit too much. Said it before but it's like the Modric case for me, but yes the transforming impact (also with other skills as passes if he needs to) is in the regions of a Cantona or Bergkamp (Gullit...) before him. There is now a solid chance the Champions League final will see eight dutch starters (plus one belgian) which is pretty unique in these multi-national days but will it register? Rinse and repeat.
I was never a big fan of Ferdinand more than anything else because the above perception was the impression I got, far too often for my liking... At the same time, a lot of the time defenders tend to play with a deliberately 'dumber' one who is more aggressive and takes more risks and gets caught out a lot, and that dumber defender isn't actually dumb, instead said dumb defender is just playing a role that looks dumb on the surface but in reality significantly facilitates the role of defenders like VVD. For example, Carles Puyol played that 'dumb' role successfully; first with Rafa Marquez (Barcelona 2005/06 achieved one of the all time great defensive records in the Champions League, and it was not because Barcelona was so good at attacking that the defensive had an easy job), and then with the young Gerard Pique; albeit Pique didn't played Euro 2008, where Puyol again successfully played his role with a different set of defenders. With the above in mind, I have not watched anywhere near enough of VVD (or Liverpool for that matter) to know if this is the case with him, but I do know that that is how Paolo Maldini defended, and that Maldini needed a seemingly dumb enforcer to facilitate things for him. Without these aggressively 'dumb' defenders I think that teams cannot defend well, at least not against any in form team with capable attacking players. Simply put: it's impossible to be well positioned at all times when playing against players who can actually dribble past you in any given situation (which is what Barcelona lacked, and what ultimately kills this imploding Barca side). Hell, VVD was caught by a slow older version of Suarez in the first leg; try to imagine the younger Suarez of 2013 and 2014, and it is very likely that VVD gets caught more than only once. At any rate, VVD appears to be a great defender, but yes, I do think that the propaganda is getting out of hand... I mean, is he actually any better than John Terry was in his time? I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't, which isn't meant to be an attack on VVD.
I'd think a decent argument can be made that he adds a bit of what Ferdinand did have (the physical attributes in terms of height and running ability/speed, the composure and 'smoothness' on the ball) to what Terry had. Or vice versa even - a bit of what Terry had to what Ferdinand had.
My thoughts on this don't count for much as I haven't watched much of VVD this season (or any other season for that matter), but judging by the 5 or 6 games that I have watched of him this season, VVD reminds me somewhat of Maldini, in terms of his philosophical school of the defensive arts, for lack of a better term. In other words: VVD appears to be a defender who sits back and doesn't readily get into scrappy exchanges if he can avoid it, waits for others to facilitate the defending for him, which can work to great effect when the whole team defends coherently, but can backfire when VVD doesn't get the watered-down (facilitated) version of an attack. Of course, VVD is so much physically bigger (and generally different?) than Maldini was that maybe he isn't even similar enough to make any consistent comparison... but for example, like Maldini (who moved like a smaller player, in that not many players of Maldini's tall frame had Maldini's mobility when running at speed, when changing direction, etc.), VVD does have surprisingly good movements for a player that big. But overall I'm not sure I've seen another defender quite like VVD in terms of style. Moreover, he does seem to have some of Ferdinand's strengths, but he seems to be less tentative with his decisions than Ferdinand was; though again, it is difficult to have a good idea of how much of this is down to the tactics of the team, and to the era itself. And even when it comes to Rio Ferdinand, I might be selling him short, as my memories of him are vague - but I do remember him not being exactly reliable as far as defenders go, but very good with the ball.
Possibly, but with that goal there were probably three 'mistakes' going on (Matip, Henderson not closing down Alba). Jordi Alba maybe could have played it to #22 (Vidal) potentially as well and in that case following Suarez wouldn't be the best choice. Defending has become very collective indeed. https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/so...eutralises-philosophies-of-the-past-1.3874358 I'd say as a pure defender Terry was maybe/possibly the best of the Premier League era (though in an England shirt he was eclipsed by e.g. Campbell from what I saw). Defensively I'd give him a slight edge if anything (above all others) but that's splitting hairs and maybe memory distorts a bit or it is hard to compare teams and such. John Terry did need three times as many fouls (slight ref nationality bias again?) for having roughly the same numerical reliability and yes also needed more fouls than Matip and Lovren. For what's worth, JT his peak WhoScored rating is 7.31 which is quite high for a defender (it's peak Kompany level for example) but VvD has now four EPL seasons above that rating. Probably because of the footballing contribution, too.
Vidic vs VVD The reality is we are living in a era(social media era) where everything is the best ever,greatest ever,most ever etc VVD is great in a very weak defensive era of the PL Compared to defenders who plied their trade here not that long ago he is "ordinary" as the above shows Vidic 08/09 was comfortably better than prime CR in the PL Thats how good he was Manchester united players are traditionally underrated in ballon dor rankings(usually having to do extraordinary things to gain recognition as best,charlton,CR,law) Had it not been for this and barcelonas treble vidic wouldve gained more recognition than he did in 2009 It helps aswell VVD is well spoken and liked by the media unlike the cold and detatched serbian vidic who hardly conversated with his teammates let alone the media in the early days
One can also say he has incarnated both in a way. With Matip (and carrying a minor injury?) he's more the sweeper guy ("waiting for others" as leadleader says) while with Lovren it tends to be different. Bit like how Jaap Stam was the ball player for United while for the national team it was De Boer's job. That adapting to different partners is part of the story. @carlito86 - you have a point with what you say but limits of that comparison are discussed here: https://pesstatsdatabase.com/forum/...5e458b0d304ce6456daa998c98b&start=120#p597711 In general there are way less (aimless) clearances these days. The Z-score would be more telling.
Repped for the info, and because I want to rep everyone who replied to me with useful posts since mine. I do think though there is a limitation with the stats and that those will numerically favour the more aggressive defender. The stats for number of times the player dives in and misses the ball, or number of times an opponent out-paces the player and wins a penalty or scores a goal after doing so aren't shown in that table of course! I don't think Vidic could ever have been classed as the same sort of player, and given the 'total defender' label in the same way if you know what I mean, because like that article posted by Puck mentioned some defenders are good at particular aspects and he was more in the Terry mould, not someone who had 'everything' like is claimed about VvD. I hope you can see what I mean.
I wonder how valid defensive statistics comparisons are. In the other thread, can't remember which one, someone posted that defensive actions like tackles and interceptions are down by like a third across the board. I do wonder if the likes of Sol Campbell, Stam, and Vidic might have more defensive actions simply because back then, defenders had to. For example, I highly doubt VVD will have had as many chances as Campbell to clear the ball with his head simply because there are less crossings in the EPL now, and the strikers VVD faces are not Shearer or Les Ferdinand. If VVD was playing in the 2000s, would he also have as many defensive actions? It's an interesting mental exercise. VVD obviously beats almost all the great EPL defenders in terms of ball-playing skills. In terms of pure defensive ability, it's just so hard to judge.
One thing that did come to mind is when you said before that VvD will find it hard to become an all-timer when several other PL players who starred for longer at the top than he presumably will given his age might not even get that label. My idea at the time was that Xavi managed it (despite already being a very good player, especially passer, at a younger age when nobody classed him as all-timer material) - the transition to legend status - by a purple patch that everyone noticed and by being a key player in teams winning trophies. Maybe if somehow VvD won the Ballon d'Or indeed this time (it still seems a long shot, and if Hazard goes to Real Madrid and starts absolutely on fire maybe he's got as much of a chance even....although doubtful) that would propel his name into all-time discussions like Xavi's is. They'd both be heralded for their peak play and impact, especially if Liverpool won the CL. Just a thought. I'd think he should have more chance than Salah for the Ballon d'Or, because it would seem strange to me for Salah not to get it last year when playing at his best, and to get it now (and he wasn't playing in the Barcelona turnaround game and missed a big chance in the other leg so the narrative might be seen to fall down there I'd think). I'm not suggesting Messi shouldn't or won't win it though.
Most but not all Compared to tony adams then yes he looks like a Rolls royce technically Marcel desaily who passed through the EPL albeit after his prime was a complete defender(with elite atheticism,good dribble and big european games that VVD did not have-against barcelona in 1994) Ferdinand and his delivery was fantastic in 07/08(he is listed by manchester united fans as the 2nd best player on a historic side that came within one game of the treble) I agree he wasnt reliable as his partner vidic defensively but than no one arguably ever was in the PL era. I do remember him marking out prime torres(did VVD ever encounter and neutralise someone as dangerous as torres )
I do think that stats over-simplify things (not to say there is no value in the table you posted or that it doesn't confirm observations about playing style or in what ways they helped defend their goal) and lack context - i.e what was transpiring at the moment they made a clearance. Looking at them it could be asked do they hint Vidic routinely gave the ball away cheaply with 'clearances' and 'headed clearances' that exceed the number of aerial battles won (which interestingly is the opposite for VvD - meaning he nodded the ball to a team-mate or took it down on his head and kept possession 50 times or so?). But I couldn't be sure about those kinds of assumptions without checking every piece of play. If VvD is good at shepherding players away from goal and blocking the route to goal (without trying or needing to block a shot or cross) then that won't show on that particular stats sheet I suppose either (neither would the play he was praised for vs Man Utd wasn't it, where the United player shot off target - not that VvD had made it impossible to score....but he was praised for the decision making when he had two attackers to contend with).
No, but in all seriousness, I think we basically need a Z-score (Vidic in relation to all the other center backs of his own season and then see how much an outlier he is in clearances, tackles etcetera). We also miss the percentages I'd say for a proper comparison (duels won %, tackles won %, aerial duels won %). Not to knock down Vidic, since he was excellent of course (and scored high, too, in the indices), but he also had two straight red cards that season (plus 4 yellows) and committed way more fouls. Clearly less of a passer as well (1200 less passes, lower pass accuracy) but that's not so surprising. One thing I've noticed previously is VdS had actually work to do when he set his clean sheets record in 2008-09. 2.2 saves per game is not ultra low and 3.38 saves per goal conceded (which is very high). That's more work than Buffon during his run. Hard to say but as a pure defender I think Terry edges it if anything (and he wasn't Ballon d'Or material...).
A fairer comparison would be comparing VVD to other paced centers, like Stam or Pallister. Alba vs Robertson might be more appropriate for this thread. Thoughts?
Football can be a beautiful and also cruel game depending on your perspective I truly believe that in a one off encounter ajax is one of the only teams that couldve beat liverpool this season This is not unprecendeted(the result) Ajax had a horror show against feyenoord early this season also Despite the "fluke" wonder hattrick of moura,tottenham stand no chance against liverpool whatsoever Football has proven once again to be unpredicatable but i just dont see it at all If VVD manages a heroic showing against tottenham and wins the cup he should not win but at least make the BD podium Then and only then would it be a complete season worthy of such recognition
My comment was strictly to do with EPL. There's no way VVD gets into (my personal) EPL all-time XI even if he does achieve the highest peaks of them all, unless he does something ridiculous. It's the same thing with Vidic. Despite winning multiple league titiles, and recognized as the best performer in the league on occassions, it's really hard to pick him over someone like Terry who spent 2 decades in the league. It's a natural advantage of locals. They simply have a larger body of work. Foreigners need to be very special to overcome that natural advantage and be considered. Prime example are Henry and Ronaldo who are shoe-in, but also someone like Vieira, Hazard, and David De Gea who are contenders for their respective positions. VVD only has just over 100 EPL games under his belt. That's no where near enough. I think if he maintains this kind of form for 5 more years (he's only 27 right now) which is not physically impossible, then he might have a case. I don't think any CB has ever been the best in their position in the EPL for 4-5 seasons straight. That's the kind of consistency only reached by the likes of Shearer, Henry, Gerrard, Ronaldo and maybe 1-2 more? If VVD can be EPL's undisputed no.1 CB and recognized as one of the world's top CB for that long, then he'd have a real claim, imo. As for the all-time list, he has a bit more flexibility, obviously. I'm not sure he can take the Xavi route. Xavi did get elevated after a purple patch (can we call it purple patch if it was like 5 straight years? lol) but it was a pretty special patch. 1. He won 3 straight major international tournaments. I don't think VVD's Netherlands can pull that off, but certainly a World Cup victory could elevate VVD to the all-time list, unless De Ligt outshines him lol. 2. Xavi was part of one of the greatest teams of all time, so he was winning a lot more titles. I just don't see VVD winning as many, and unfortunately, all-time lists are very trophy-dependent. 3. When Xavi was the world's best, he was special. We've never seen any CM dominate and control games like he could. It was unlike anything we've ever seen. Could VVD reach the same level of dominance? For now, you'd have to err on the side of no. The last defender whom people thought was the whole package was Thiago Silva, and he couldn't establish himself as an all-timer either.
But surely, one off games are one off games. I don't think Spurs will win either, but you really never know. I really wanted Ajax to win the UCL. It's such a good story, and I don't like the idea of either Spurs or Liverpool winning it. I'd be cheering on Liverpool though. Can't stand Spurs winning it before us
Thanks for the reply - I completely understand your explanation. Of course, I might see things differently and have always looked at things differently (picking teams/lists more on peak and less on longevity for example) but that doesn't mean I don't understand what you mean, and anyway we both hint at the overall consensus of the 'future' when it comes to VvD taking the Xavi route and ending as a regularly uttered name as an all-time legend centre-back, and I agree it's not a simple process for him to end there (and again while I would never want to be using team trophies as a basis to decide who were the best players, I can see how the fame/achievement aspect can lead in that direction inevitably - there can be reasons why players make the difference between their teams winning and not winning major trophies as well for sure although it's always been an 11 player game and with luck being a factor even etc etc).
I think Vieira and Hazard both have great longevity btw. But I suppose yeah, while it's a plus compared to say Pires for Hazard now probably, it's hard to say it is compared to Giggs overall, even if in terms of numbers of 'top seasons' it might well be argued Hazard has more than the Welshman now (just less 'very good' ones due to less of a PL career overall). The thing is though I don't see him quite as a true left winger so that'd complicated comparisons and for example selection into a 4-4-2 PL XI (or even maybe a wide 4-2-3-1) or reserve XI potentially.
In the future a club as Ajax will need two strong successive seasons to have a shot, so it will only become harder (Benfica, peculiarly, support these CL reforms). Ajax started out in the CL 10 months ago. It’s not just that they weren’t meant to get within one minute of the final, it’s that the whole thing has effectively been rigged so they can’t. A road that ended in pain, but proved a point on the way.https://t.co/sBLRbvz2AC— Rory Smith (@RorySmith) May 8, 2019 Spurs is indeed not a popular club at all among Feyenoord supporters They have had more big riots with them than with Ajax, lol. The usual cartel referee in action (UEFA wise to tone it down in their replays and tv direction): @Felix_Brych Excellent Brych! 4 meters away under your nose and no penalty. Are you blind ? Haben sie scheisse in dein augen??? pic.twitter.com/E3jxcoN3UC— RomaCenturion (@roma_centurion) May 8, 2019
I've been thinking about doing a thread of EPL team of the first 25 years (so up until the end of 2016-2017 season). In my mind, both Vieira and Hazard are genuine contenders for starting positions in that team. Giggs is an interesting case. He has more longevity than anyone, but I wonder if he has consistency issues, partly due to his calf problem. He definitely has a peak issue though. He was never unanimously the best player in the league in any particular season, even if he was the best left-winger for many of them. The likes of Hazard and Bale have reached higher peaks in this regard. So Gigg's case is perhaps weaker than someone like Terry who also had a long and decorated career in the league, but have also been recognized as the league's best player at one point.
Nice idea. To be honest, I agree on consistency issues, but not withstanding that not on peak issues compared to Bale if we take Giggs's very best version (even if we go back to 93/94 to find it, and in some ways he'd not be fully matured). Very best season as a whole I might think twice but maybe would still feel the same. He was in some respects second fiddle to Cantona, but anyway I've suggested it before but I'd think he was inherently (if making the player for FM as you did before) better than Bale in some respects. Maybe Hazard too, or at least better than Hazard as pure left winger (I almost feel like Hazard's ideal role has more in common with a Zola, than a Pires or a Giggs, or halfway between at least). Not to take the thread too far off the 18/19 topic, but I guess I can't resist giving my quick input there, remembering 93/94 Giggs pretty well. 95/96 and 97/98 could be similar cases, so maybe it was like he had one off-season and one on-season lol (it wasn't so definitive in reality I'm sure!). I think he can be a bit under-appreciated because people can end up thinking his longevity was his major asset, but back in the 90s he was deemed pretty sensational (and compared a bit to George Best etc at first).
I think when Bale won Player of the Year (although other candidates existed that could have been given it) there wasn't a Cantona equivalent to prevent it in essence, and we know that he didn't get a lot of assists, and that certain things make scoring easier in recent years. Not to say categorically he wouldn't be given the nod over a Cantona in top form back in the 90s, but indeed at least the output would have needed to be similar to what he achieved recently (and people will have different estimations about whether it might have been - the flip side being the slightly more 'open' or worse defending of Cantona's time, even with the offside laws and less harsh penalisation of fouls). I don't want to get into it too much (again!) anyway, but I thought since you replied to me it could be taken (by people who didn't see certain posts in the past anyway) as agreement on peak Bale over peak Giggs if I said nothing, whereas as you can tell that's not my perception.
If anything, the referee(s) favoured Ajax across the two legs. If that was a penalty, the pulling down of Vertonghen (I think) on De Ligt's goal last night, should have chalked off the first Ajax goal. Trippier was kicked in the face by a high foot on the second Ajax goal but nothing was given. Onana constantly timewasted to an incredible degree across both legs, he eventually picked up a yellow last night but he should already have been on a caution from the first leg. Helpfully his antics allowed Spurs enough injury time to score the winner. Overall I really felt for Ajax but they were far from hard done by and their fans clearly thought they were in the final before the game started. At half-time Kluivert was on screen singing along 'Don't Worry About a Thing'. They were a bit complacent, looked really rattled when put under pressure (in both legs) and ultimately couldn't hold out.
I know what you mean. Giggs in the mid 90s was the most devastating dribbler in the world, imo. I know the mid 90s was blessed with some pretty ridiculous dribblers, but I too remember Giggs of that period. I remember that young pre-calf -injury Giggs as being quite a physical specimen. His acceleration, pace, agility, and balance. So while others may be had superior ball control, I don't remember anyone who had his athletic gifts. I think he was perhaps an even better dribbler than Hazard, let alone Bale, but Hazard was much more two-footed and perhaps more technical so he could do more with the ball.