Best players in the world 2019/20

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Nov 12, 2019.

  1. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    We've reached that time of year when people start to put out the lists of the best players in the world. First up is Goal with their 25 best players in the world this year.

    https://www.goal.com/story/goal-50-2019/index.html

    1. Van Dijk
    2. Messi
    3. Salah
    4. Cristiano Ronaldo
    5. Mane
    6. Sterling
    7. Alisson
    8. De Jong
    9. Bernardo
    10. Mbappe
    11. Eden Hazard
    12. De Ligt
    13. Aguero
    14. Son
    15. Alexander-Arnold
    16. Lewandowski
    17. Firmino
    18. Sancho
    19. Griezmann
    20. Aubameyang
    21. Kane
    22. Tadic
    23. Robertson
    24. Reus
    25. Suarez
     
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  2. pregra

    pregra Member

    Barcelona
    Argentina
    Dec 1, 2008
    Norway
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Tadic should be top 10 if you ask me. Seems underrated on all lists and awards this year.
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord

    Is the other thread not good enough? (despite me being a bit pissed there :mad: ).


    I was wondering whether there was any sort of method and found this as the highest hit in the search engine:

    The Goal 50 is an annual award that brings together the world's 50 best male and female players.

    The players are divided into two 25-strong groups and ranked on their achievements over the previous year.

    Chief editors and correspondents from Goal's 42 editions around the world cast their votes based on each candidate's consistency, big-game performances, footballing legacy and success at club and international level.
    https://www.goal.com/en/news/virgil...goal-50-best-player/qgmapfu14jct10sa5vm5wpsvw



    P.S. remarkable but typical - for football - change from two years ago ("It is not as bad as it appeared and not as good as it should be").
     
  4. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I just thought I’d put one up for the lists. I saw yours as more for the performances during this season.
     
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  5. darek27

    darek27 Member

    Aug 29, 2008
    It's based on last season or 2019 calendar year ?

    If the 2019, Lewandowski should to be in TOP 5 at least

    Ronaldo in TOP 5 in 2019 it's not even funny. Many players were better but his PR is huge
     
  6. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    The criteria say it is annual so it should be for this year, but as is often the case the entire previous season chips into the consideration.

    Lewandowski has to be top 5 most probably (although he didn't have a big CL game against a big opponent - taking aside Tottenham - it might be argued; scored his national team goals against Latvia and Israel) and I expect Mane ahead of Salah in the Ballon d'Or, although Salah has been shoe-horned into a different role compared to the season he scored 42 goals. I expect Lewandowski to be top 10 in the Ballon d'Or but not top five.

    Normally Messi is #1 when ignoring the national team scene and his injury. Main 'negative' is this season he has only three goals from open play (in all competitions) and those came against Eibar, Slavia Prague and Valladolid - while the stacked team still plays for his excellence and he registers 4+ shots per game. The other goals are from set piece situations.

    Anyway, let's see where the other lists place Lewandowski, Ronaldo and Salah.
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #7 PuckVanHeel, Nov 13, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
    To give an example for this: some buzz and applause has developed around Fabinho this season, but he misses out in above Goal 50 list.

    The Daily Telegraph ranked him as the 6th best Premier League player for the months September and October (TAA was 2nd) and for example this fansite (click link) ranked him as 2nd most important of his own team (I picked one from today):

    https://www.rousingthekop.com/2019/...les-liverpools-most-important-players-ranked/

    So basically the first half of any season count twice, sort of. See this type of argumentation by Danny Murphy as well.
    https://talksport.com/football/6272...l-van-dijk-ballon-dor-barcelona-lionel-messi/

    Similar to Fabinho now, Van Dijk had already a remarkable second half of the 2017-18 season, which sometimes received a big thumbs up (UCL team of the season by the technical commission) and sometimes not (e.g. no BdO nomination in 2018).

    edit: Fabinho wasn't part of the Copa America this year.
     
  8. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    The ESPN 100 is now out as well:

    Goalkeepers:

    10. Onana
    9. De Gea
    8. Lloris
    7. Kepa
    6. Szczesny
    5. Neuer
    4. Ederson
    3. Ter Stegen
    2. Oblak
    1. Alisson

    Right-backs

    10. Wan-Bissaka
    9. Azpilicueta
    8. Trippier
    7. Cancelo
    6. Dani Alves
    5. Walker
    4. Carvajal
    3. Ricardo Pereira
    2. Kimmich
    1. Alexander-Arnold

    Centre-backs

    10. Skriniar
    9. Gimenez
    8. Marquinhos
    7. Bonucci
    6. Chiellini
    5. Ramos
    4. Laporte
    3. De Ligt
    2. Koulibaly
    1. Van Dijk

    Left-backs

    10. Tagliafico
    9. Kolarov
    8. Grimaldo
    7. Ferland Mendy
    6. Digne
    5. Lucas Hernandez
    4. Alex Sandro
    3. Alba
    2. Alaba
    1. Robertson

    Centre-mid

    10. Saul Niguez
    9. Verratti
    8. Rodri
    7. Pjanic
    6. Fabinho
    5. Casemiro
    4. Fernandinho
    3. Busquets
    2. De Jong
    1. Kante

    Attacking-mid

    10. Bruno Fernandes
    9. Banega
    8. Havertz
    7. Koke
    6. Pogba
    5. Eriksen
    4. David Silva
    3. Van de Beek
    2. De Bruyne
    1. Bernardo Silva

    Wing

    10. Everton
    9. Sane
    8. Neres
    7. Di Maria
    6. Reus
    5. Son Heung-Min
    4. Sancho
    3. Hazard
    2. Mane
    1. Sterling

    Forward

    10. Tadic
    9. Joao Felix
    8. Neymar
    7. Aubameyang
    6. Griezmann
    5. Firmino
    4. Salah
    3. Mbappe
    2. Ronaldo
    1. Messi

    Striker

    10. Quagliarella
    9. Ibrahimovic
    8. Lacazette
    7. Zapata
    6. Cavani
    5. Suarez
    4. Benzema
    3. Lewandowski
    2. Kane
    1. Aguero

    Manager

    10. Sarri
    9. Belmadi
    8. Gallardo
    7. Ancelotti
    6. Allegri
    5. Simeone
    4. Pochettino
    3. Ten Hag
    2. Guardiola
    1. Klopp
     
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  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I don't get how can Van de Beek be so high in this and no Ziyech or Wijnaldum (yesterday captain for the first time & the first midfielder since Neeskens in '72 to score a hat-trick). I really see this different.

    Vd Beek isn't first choice for the national side and has for now basically only one mental mode to play the game. He moves down a gear when playing as double six but basically still plays the same way.

    Fabinho wasn't a locked starter last season (the first half at the least), not part of the Copa America, and leapfrogs to a high placement. Well, I can run down a few more of those and who misses out.

    The Ajax boys are good, but in the meantime it are others who create the goals for the national team. You wouldn't get the impression they're involved in less than 20% of the goals if you see this ESPN list (F. de Jong passes the test for me though, scoring and assisting against Germany and Northern Ireland).

    Saw today this list:

    https://www.vi.nl/nieuws/uefa-ranking-memphis-en-frenkie-de-beste-wijnaldum-stijgt-met-stip

    https://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro-2020/performancezone/#/how-it-works

    No, I don't take this too literal for sure, but at the same time you can't say the top names are boosted by playing in particularly easy groups (with no Malta, Luxembourg, Andorra, San Marino in for example). So it still caught my attention.
     
  10. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I don't understand how Neres can be in and Ziyech not in. Wijnaldum is in a very tough category. I could well see him in there but we're also missing the likes of Parejo and all the inclusions have merit.

    The complete absence of someone like Pique doesn't make sense to me.
     
  11. PrimoCalcio

    PrimoCalcio Member

    Milan/Napoli
    Italy
    Oct 14, 2019
    While I don't expect much from ESPN, there are some real mind-bogglers here.

    Ramos above Chiellini? How is that justifiable?
    Ramos accomplished nothing during the year, his most memorable moment being when he was purposefully and arrogantly sent off vs Ajax therefore missing the second leg, which Real went on to lose.

    Kane and Aguero above Lewandoski??

    Was Kante really the best CM in the world this year?

    Kepa shouldn't be on the list. It can only be EPL bias. Surely on of Handanovic, Donnarumma, or even Sirigu deserves it more, and probably many other GKs I am missing.

    Azpilicueta... not even gonna get into that one.
     
  12. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes I understand that and maybe there should be an extra category of defensive midfielders. Parejo has to be in too I agree and we're also missing some other likely choices such as Thiago, Jorginho and maybe Kroos, Koke, Brozovic, Witsel.

    'Algemeen Dagblad' gave Gini an 8.5 for the entire qualification campaign (8 goals and 2 assists without penalty). Others with a strong grade were De Jong (8), Depay (8), Van Dijk (8), Malen (7), De Ligt (7). I'd say he is my favorite orange player now and yes his tactical profile is sort of a budget Clarence clone (including the 'odd' big goal). I can understand why his team-mates at Oranje and Liverpool voted him as one of the captains, and before the match he had some words to say.

    One I have my doubts about is Rodri, primarily/exclusively in what he does without the ball. Saw him against Sweden for the national side.
     
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  13. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Feel like they just named the first 10 names they can think of here lol
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I think many would pick the same top two (leaving aside whether that's correct).

    The rest is more random, but the full-backs are traditionally not the strongest positions.

    Kyle Walker was last season quite weak, this season a bit better but not always playing or completing matches (with his team winning, thus no need to field an extra attacker or so).
     
  15. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Who's missing?
     
  16. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    There are now strong rumors Messi will win the Ballon d'Or (which doesn't surprise me, given the always tight voting blocks and that also Tuvalu and St. Kitts can vote) and Ronaldo will finish third...



    F. de Jong said something about him changing his playing style a bit:

    "The freedom of movement here is different. At Ajax the intention was to get me in control during the build-up, now I have to change my position. Running away to get others in the best possible possession of the ball, or finding a space on the field to receive the ball itself. That sort of thing is searching."

    https://www.vi.nl/pro/overig/frenki...jn-eerste-barca-rondo-en-de-snelle-aanpassing

    Basically he admits in the piece he and the team as a whole isn't playing as well as he did for Ajax or for the national team this season. He admits he's still learning the language. He makes some interesting comments though.

    Some other comments:
    Show Spoiler
    "Barcelona is top of the top, but there is the atmosphere of a friends club that knows each other for a while. I was surprised about that. The bond between the players is very close and meant, there is not jealousy. Everyone realizes that together we have to achieve performance and that you have to make the best of it. We are of course often together. With Ajax we had a training camp during preparation, mostly in Austria. At Barcelona I suddenly flew literally all over the world. Physiologically I don't know if that has been so good, but commercially I understand. No leading player is complaining about it.
    [...]
    In the meantime I have mastered the football language. When the trainer starts to slide on the board with magnets, I understand exactly what he means and I understand what my duties are. In the dressing room I can already talk to the boys, but as soon as they start to laugh, when jokes are made, or jokes are told, I need a little longer to understand them.
    [...]
    Playing and training together with Messi, Griezmann, Busquets, Piqué ... Not that it made me very nervous, or something, but when you are on the field with them for the first time, you are curious. I went there for the first time with a different feeling in my stomach, a bit like on your first day of school. I also knew all those stories beforehand, of how well those guys can play with each other. I was also curious about that, the position games, the rondo, they control them. I just thought: As long as I am not in the middle for twenty minutes. But it wasn't a problem. "
    [...]
    But then it's about that extra quality. Then it may be that you are standing in the field watching how Luis scores a bicycle goal with his wrong leg. Yes, of course I enjoy, alone, it doesn't surprise me anymore. I also see him doing things during training, so that it starts to become almost normal too.
    [...]
    You have already had all positions in midfield.

    'Not a problem for me. Everyone starts talking about the location of Sergio Busquets, that I can really do justice there. If he does not participate, I would indeed like to play there, but you do talk about Busquets, do you? One of the biggest players in the world in that position. That I then come to play to his left, sometimes even in a more attacking role, does not matter to me at all. The only thing is that I only get to the ball at a later stage of the build-up, so that my influence on the game is different. In the beginning I didn't play my best game yet, that is going much better now. Then I can play in that place without any problems. I also see the benefit of it. Everyone knows what I can do at 6, I have played there so many times. Now I am forced to develop in positions that demand other aspects of a midfielder. It makes me more complete. "

    The question that everyone wants to ask ...

    "... what is it like to play with Messi? Haha. No, I don't get tired of it, I get it. I would also have asked. Messi is my teammate, it is this simple, but at the same time I can see and feel that he is a superstar. When we get off the bus at the hotel or stadium and people see Messi, yes, something happens. You see them all change. He is often the last person to come out, so they have to wait just a little longer. This provides even more sound.[...] During the matches you can always play the ball to him, that's the plan, and you know that he can do something decisive with it. And even if he plays to you, there is an idea behind that pass. I think it is an honor and special to be able to play with him. "

    That honor seems mutual, because Messi recently voted for Frenkie de Jong as the best midfielder in the Champions League of the past season. Also Cristiano Ronaldo, the other all-time great, gave his voice to Frenkie de Jong, as Antoine Griezmann, now a teammate at Barcelona, called him the most difficult opponent he had ever played against.

    "I learned later that Messi and Ronaldo voted for me, but it is beautiful, of course. Just as Griezmann's compliment is, "says De Jong. "It matters to me because it comes from such big players. I am therefore particularly proud of it. As a little boy I was watching those guys in front of the TV when they were already playing in the Champions League and I was in school. But that's it immediately, that's all, isn't it? I don't think about it when I'm on the field with them. Then I only want one thing: to use that ball as well as possible. Exactly as I have always done. "


    As often remarked, those things work better by season instead of by year.
     
  18. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Hard to imagine any striker having a better season than Lewandowski this season.
     
  19. darek27

    darek27 Member

    Aug 29, 2008
    So, Messi will win thanks to tight voting blocks and also Tuvalu and St. Kitts ?

    The criteria aren't clear.
    We give it to the best player individualy?
    Or to the best/most infuential player of the winning team ( WC, Euro, UCL )

    In first case it should to be Messi.
    In second, some Liverpool player
     
  20. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    He's doing really well so far. Let's see how he does at the crunch end of the season and at the Euros. No doubt he is an absolutely superb player but it's not the first time he's had a sensational autumn and then faded.
     
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes, undoubtedly this plays a part. See this thread (multiple tweets):

    And this:
    https://lmgtfy.com/?q=ballon+d'or+biases+strategic

    "Finally, sharing a continent with a jury member is also positively and significantly associated with a candidate being voted best player, though the odds ratio is fairly small. The odds to be voted best player by a given jury member are about 54 per cent higher if a candidate shares his continent with the jury member, compared to the candidate not sharing a continent with the jury member. Using the scenarios described above, for Messi in 2014, not sharing his continent with a jury member would get him 9.7 per cent of the votes, compared with 14 per cent in the case of sharing a continent with the jury member. For Ronaldo in 2014, these percentages would be 52.2 per cent and 62.3 per cent, respectively, while for Iniesta, these percentages would be 0.5 per cent and 0.7 per cent. While, in relative terms, these are still sizeable differences, for candidates with a low chance of being selected as the best player in the case of absence of similarity with the candidate, the absolute change in probability is small."

    Where South American voters are more united in their support for Neymar than European voters for 'their' guys (although we can see South Europeans are more likely to vote for Ronaldo than North Europeans).

    In other words: it will not result in a #7 becoming a #1 but can easily swing results around and make a difference of 10+ percent points.


    There are criteria but cannot find them right now, and it is questionable to what extent voters follow it. One of the criteria is professional conduct and showing exemplary behavior. It's also by calander year and then it doesn't make real sense (imho) to see Ronaldo third. Messi is of course much better and more deserved, but is unusually dependent on penalties and set pieces this season for his goals and assists (also recently vs Brazil and Uruguay for his national side).
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Looking at all of this again, I think they are mixing up both timeframes.

    Lewandowski is 'only' third because of last season. Neuer is 5th because of this season.

    Allison is #1 because of last season (+ Copa America), not because of the current campaign where he was injured (Liverpool doing fine in the meantime with the league's best defense) and hasn't looked at his previous best so far (2.2 saves per match, 0.9 goals conceded per match). It's likely he'll get back to his best form though.

    https://www.goal.com/en-ph/news/ali...-form-after-injury/1lfcagac5854013x1hcbve0ccx
     
  23. darek27

    darek27 Member

    Aug 29, 2008

    So, who should to vote and who should to win ?

    If the player win WC or UCL with amazing ko performance and great consistency during a year, he is a "clear" winner.

    Both VVD and Messi aren't "clear" this year
     
  24. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Arsenal
    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    In absolute terms, no, they're not clear. But relatively, they are. There simply isn't anyone you can really make an argument for above these two.
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Sadio Mane is the only one I think.
     

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