Best players in the world 2019/20

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by comme, Nov 12, 2019.

  1. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Doesn’t it more reflect the fact that Belgian players, largely, haven’t been great this year?

    De Bruyne and Hazard should be higher up but someone like Courtois has had a bad year, Carrasco and Dembele have gone to China, Nainggolan had a pretty poor time at Inter but is back in form now.

    The preponderance of Brazilians while overdone reflects in part the Copa America and also the club success of Flamengo.
     
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  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #77 PuckVanHeel, Dec 27, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2019
    That's right but that applies to many Real Madrid players and seven of them are nevertheless in (Hazard - who is not so high for his Madrid games, Benzema, Ramos, Kroos, Modric, Casemiro, Varane). They aren't all 100% obvious names.

    The counterpoint is some of those have rebounded a bit, but so did Courtois I guess. Haven't seen everything but he had his games in the Champions League where he was decisive (Galatasaray) but also the league (Valencia, Bilbao recently) where he was busy and is therefore the best/2nd best goalkeeper in WhoScored. He has won points for them this campaign.

    Thus that fits within my point/observation still.
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #78 PuckVanHeel, Dec 27, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2019
    Well yes, my thoughts are broadly the same here. The next question is what are the driving factors behind all those clicks.

    I'll comment briefly on a few of your other things.


    This are not mutually exclusive ideas. If I claim VvD had likely won the BdO if he was Italian (also based on what we know from a few research papers with regression analysis) then it doesn't exclude Italian football(ers) have taken a reputational hit the last decade. Furthermore, 'my claims' are not limited to only the last 10 years.


    I don't see it that way. Bluntly put: Germany has usually by 'consensus' three footballers in an all-time top 20. That is more than every other European country. Now you might think there is still a barrier to overcome, but all those three are from the province associated with 60+ million deaths in the 20th century, with then providing shelter for war criminals afterwards. It meets the 'least likely case' test.

    The football system with all those sponsors, population, media (receiving FIFA medals) etc. is just that strong. They have eight in this The Guardian list, almost the double amount of 'Holland', who outclassed them this year on the pitch.


    We've played our role in the development of the sport, tactical concepts and some teams (at Liverpool the main function of the three dutchmen is to provide an antidote against the pitfall of chaos and loss of cohesion in which klopp teams can easily fall into), which has also been recognized.

    In the ecosystem of modern times there is however at times a tendency that it gets pushed aside because the media has become so geared towards the bigger markets and leagues. Books and works like the one of Michael Cox is obviously written for that audience and has that slant (don't get me started about the likes of Honigstein), and is for demographic reasons also more about the last 10 years than the 15 years before. Well known are the anecdotes of countries where the best supported team is Barcelona or Manchester United rather than a local team.

    In a broader sense of 'undervaluation' (beyond only football) I still get the idea we are one of those countries others look to for how to organize things, especially in a context of permanent minorities ("theoretically this country cannot exist" said America's foremost political theorist Robert Dahl and the famous sociologist Putnam said the same).

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/12/why-are-there-so-few-prisoners-in-the-netherlands
    https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/12/21/democracy-has-only-one-way-to-save-the-planet-netherlands/


    First of all, while I have used other phrases as 'conspiracy' in the past, I never used 'oppression' for reasons stated above. 'Oppression' is not the right word. Yes, for example, I think we get often the short end of the stick when it comes to seeding, base camp or referee assignments (getting things done at the authorities, including anti-doping stuff and finding solutions) but 'oppression' doesn't cover it.

    We challenged the status quo in the early 70s and then also in the 1990s. Both times the authorities responded with pressing the reset button. Plain and simple, easily visible. We were #2 in the coefficients and the UEFA response was a downgrade back to Greece and Denmark levels (for entry tickets and financial compensation). In tournaments we had between 1970 and 2016 the 2nd most semi final appearances (behind Germany), despite often unfavorable seeding, so a few times we threatened to win the whole thing.

    What is the 'status quo'? The status quo has a financial dimension of maximizing money, and even the European Commission has from time to time recognized this. Already in 2004:

    "There is a need for an ongoing and better-structured dialogue between the audiovisual sector and sport, and I am convinced that the public institutions, and particularly the European ones, can play a beneficial role as arbitrators.

    The EURO 2004 cup final can provide a starting point for discussion, given the economic weight of football in European sport and that the need for sporting content in Europe will lead to similar business models for other sports.

    The unexpected final Greece-Portugal involving two small countries represents, from a strictly sporting point of view, a triumph for the true values of sport. But was it positive from the point of view of the economy of sport and of television?

    From an economic point of view, it is a huge problem to cope with the early elimination of France, Italy, Spain, Germany and England, which represent potential audiences of 280 million viewers. Let's be clear: a Greece-Portugal final attracts a potential audience of 22 million viewers. Are these audience levels the ones expected by sports sponsors and advertisers? The answer is clearly “no” and the same applies to Champions' League finals without star-clubs."


    See also various articles like this:
    https://www.ibtimes.com/2014-world-...ottom-line-fifa-advertisers-retailers-1606600
    https://www.telegraph.co.uk/footbal...-sports-dismal-champions-league-viewing-figu/

    "The UK market is a massive market commercially and if one of your markets for the top five – England, Spain, Germany, France, Italy – is playing out to audiences as low as that [because of bad performance], you’re going to question the value and you’re going to go straight to Uefa."

    Consciously or subconsciously it plays a role and we've also seen instances in the past where mass public pressure (and English tabloids) forces referees like Anders Frisk into retirement.

    When Nike entered football in the 1990s, it was pitched in 1993 to Phil Knight (who didn't care about football so the Europeans needed to convince him) by the dutch Nike football boss as:

    "We said to him: the world of football fits into together like this. Once in every four years there is a tournament, about one-and-a-half year it takes place in your country. On a drawing board we had put the group allocations, and that is maybe not entirely corrupt but a little bit corrupt. Because the tournament is guided, and that leads to that Brazil, Germany, Italy - if we [as Dutchmen] are lucky Holland because they played well - those advance very far, and then it becomes a final like Brazil versus Italy, or Germany versus... there are only a handful countries that make the world turn around. And then they looked at us, weary surprised to hear the word 'corruption' and that the FIFA might have some business into that. Then I stepped up and said: "No, it is guided. But it moves into that direction so that at the end of the day you get an interesting final." Phil Knight said then after the meeting was finished: "It seems you know and understand a lot, how does it come, blablahblah. Well, you seem to be the one to lead the job."
    https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3uawei

    It has also been confirmed by other people that the entry into football was pitched that way to the Americans.

    So if you ask me what is the 'status quo' then cynically I'd say at the first place it is driven by money (Nike, Adidas, BT, BeinSport are infinitely bigger as Real Madrid, they are the real giants) and the secondarily the international politics dimension (folks like Grondona, Mutko and what perks he arranges for his people).


    I don't think they are under-represented in The Guardian list for this year, but yourself have given the answer above with your elaboration on clicks and the rest of your story. Mexican players (the language factor) bring more clicks than Swiss players. You've given the answer yourself.


    I agree with some of the things you say in this post (the quoted part as example) but think we've covered this ground a few times already, so I let it pass now if you don't mind.

    Of course, ten times as many points always looks unfair because top players are not ten times better than another top player.
     
  4. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Lloris (France) and De Gea (Spain) are also on that list.
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Allison has not the best case of his team for being 'the missing piece'. There was already a marked improvement just before his arrival (despite a vastly sub-standard goalkeeper) and Liverpool continued to have the best defense of the league when he was out injured.

    The truth of the matter is Allison was one of the best goalkeepers this year, but not necessarily better as Oblak or Ter Stegen.

    It is possible to say Allison gets the nod because of all his team successes, but here the comparison with - say - Van Breukelen in 1988 is informative. Van Breukelen won everything there is to win in 1988, with penalty saves in both the Eeropean Cup and European Championship final, but didn't get as universal acclaim for what he did and his individual contribution. For his full career (and 1990 World Cup previews) he got his fair share of fame, but not for this year. Underrated and shafted in favor of Shilton, Zenga, Dasaev etcetera.

    With your elaboration on 'clicks' and such you have given the answer yourself. Did I already say until the Bosman ruling 'we' won more European Cups than France and Germany combined; and Italy, Spain and England had only one or two more.

    'Unimportant' indeed.
     
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  6. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I think the problem is that Courtois was also pretty average in the previous season at Chelsea. So in the last 2 and a half seasons, he's got a good World Cup (probably the best keeper) and a decent half to this season.

    I think the others have a better 2017-8 to fall back on (if that informs the voting on this one).

    The same is true of De Gea who was great in 2017-8. Lloris wouldn't make my top 100 but he somehow got onto the Ballon d'Or nominations, I guess as captain of CL finalists.
     
  7. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Except these probably aren't, at least the Guardian's isn't. They've assembled a vast array of different former players, worldwide journalists etc, asked them to select a top 40 and anonymised their voting. I understand why but it takes away accountability and it also allows people to make 'pet' choices.

    None of those people are doing it in a properly professional capacity. Many of them have probably spent 10 minutes or so doing a list.

    You can see it if you go through the voting sheet. People have made some terrible selections.
     
  8. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Here a typical commentary from David Winner a few days ago:

    A book about the idea of Dutch football. Or rather, as Winner writes: "About my idea of the idea of Dutch football." Winner hadn't seen that idea for some time. He recognized Dutch football in many places, such as Spain, FC Barcelona, Manchester City, but no longer in the Netherlands. The 2010 World Cup final was a low point for him.

    "A nightmare, "Winner says." The Netherlands played terribly. The tradition of beautiful football seemed to be over. The downward spiral started in 2000 and the last ten years the tradition seemed completely dead. If you had called me last year, I would have said the Dutch idea no longer existed at home."
    https://nos.nl/l/2316810

    The pro-German, anti-Dutch machinery is strong the last 20 years, with foreigners as 'experts' and gatekeepers of ideas.
     
  9. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    FourFourTwo

    100. Fekir
    99. Lauturo Martinez
    98. Immobile
    97. Ben Yedder
    96. Odegaard
    95. Aspas
    94. Tadic
    93. Gabriel Jesus
    92. Dybala
    91. Insigne
    90. Ricardo Pereira
    89. Lukaku
    88. Fernandinho
    87. Fabian Ruiz
    86. Sancho
    85. Icardi
    84. Hummels
    83. Alejandro Gomez
    82. Courtois
    81. Chiellini
    80. Handanovic
    79. Vardy
    78. Rodri
    77. Maguire
    76. Oyarzabal
    75. Mahrez
    74. Lenglet
    73. Luis Suarez
    72. Alderweireld
    71. Rakitic
    70. Marquinhos
    69. Szczesny
    68. Parejo
    67. Neuer
    66. Skriniar
    65. Keylor Navas
    64. Saul Niguez
    63. Werner
    62. Witsel
    61. Koke
    60. Bale
    59. Sule
    58. Eriksen
    57. Kroos
    56. Reus
    55. Ramos
    54. Pogba
    53. Gnabry
    52. Verratti
    51. Ziyech
    50. Frenkie De Jong
    49. Cazorla
    48. Varane
    47. Thiago Silva
    46. Wijnaldum
    45. Thiago Alcantara
    44. Vertonghen
    43. Busquets
    42. De Ligt
    41. Di Maria
    40. Casemiro
    39. Mertens
    38. Benzema
    37. Aubameyang
    36. Carvajal
    35. De Gea
    34. Jose Gimenez
    33. Kimmich
    32. Alba
    31. Modric
    30. Son Heung-Min
    29. Fabinho
    28. Pique
    27. Pjanic
    26. Alexander-Arnold
    25. Robertson
    24. Ederson
    23. Neymar
    22. Griezmann
    21. Laporte
    20. David Silva
    19. Koulibaly
    18. Kante
    17. Bernardo Silva
    16. Hazard
    15. Aguero
    14. Firmino
    13. Alisson
    12. Ter Stegen
    11. Kane
    10. Mane
    9. Sterling
    8. De Bruyne
    7. Lewandowski
    6. Oblak
    5. Mbappe
    4. Ronaldo
    3. Salah
    2. Van Dijk
    1. Messi
     
  10. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    This was Marca's version for the best of 2019. As always, quite a random list and the top 10 (the order of which was selected by a public vote) is odd.

    Marca
    100. Villa
    99. Akram Afif
    98. Nicolas Sanchez
    97. Moise Kean
    96. Odsonne Edouard
    95. Maddison
    94. Ezequiel Palacios
    93. Almoez Ali
    92. Gomis
    91. Sardar Azmoun
    90. Seferovic
    89. Maguire
    88. Ibrahimovic
    87. Everton
    86. Onana
    85. Stefano Sensi
    84. Bennacer
    83. Rodri
    82. Lucas Moura
    81. Zaniolo
    80. Rodrygo
    79. Nicolas Pepe
    78. Insigne
    77. Abraham
    76. Gnabry
    75. Lukaku
    74. Raul Jimenez
    73. Bruno Henrique
    72. Depay
    71. Rashford
    70. Dani Olmo
    69. Jovic
    68. Alejandro Gomez
    67. Dani Alves
    66. Vela
    65. Fabian Ruiz
    64. Varane
    63. Ben Yedder
    62. Odegaard
    61. Ederson
    60. Achraf Hakimi
    59. Vardy
    58. Haaland
    57. Zupata
    56. David Neres
    55. Giroud
    54. Origi
    53. Havertz
    52. Kante
    51. Lauturo Martinez
    50. Fede Valverde
    49. Gabriel Barbosa
    48. Gabriel Jesus
    47. Di Maria
    46. Kroos
    45. Immobile
    44. Pjanic
    43. Ramos
    42. Aubameyang
    41. Pique
    40. David Silva
    39. Sancho
    38. Ziyech
    37. Marquinhos
    36. Koulibaly
    35. Eriksen
    34. Wijnaldum
    33. Van de Beek
    32. Henderson
    31. Mahrez
    30. Quagliarella
    29. Casemiro
    28. Robertson
    27. Luis Suarez
    26. Bruno Fernandes
    25. Oblak
    24. De Bruyne
    23. Lloris
    22. Tadic
    21. Joao Felix
    20. Firmino
    19. Griezmann
    18. Son
    17. Alexander-Arnold
    16. Aguero
    15. Ter Stegen
    14. Bernardo Silva
    13. De Ligt
    12. Lewandowski
    11. Hazard
    10. Alisson
    9. Sterling
    8. Salah
    7. De Jong
    6. Mane
    5. Mbappe
    4. Ronaldo
    3. Van Dijk
    2. Benzema
    1. Messi
     
  11. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I'm still looking to get the Josimar Topp 50 list but this is the combined position of the lists to date:

    Villa 1
    Fekir 1
    Aouar 1
    Akram Afif 2
    Nicolas Sanchez 3
    Moise Kean 4
    Odsonne Edouard 5
    Chilwell 5
    Barella 5
    Aspas 6
    Gueye 6
    Upamecano 6
    Ezequiel Palacios 7
    Alex Sandro 7
    Almoez Ali 8
    Dzeko 8
    Gomis 9
    Maddison 9
    Sardar Azmoun 10
    Allan 10
    Seferovic 11
    Ricardo Pereira 11
    Dele Alli 12
    Coutinho 13
    Wan-Bissaka 13
    Zaha 14
    Marcelo 15
    Stefano Sensi 16
    Bennacer 17
    Onana 17
    Pukki 17
    Zaniolo 20
    Rodrygo 21
    Nicolas Pepe 22
    Everton 23
    Brandt 23
    Ibrahimovic 24
    Oyarzabal 25
    Kepa 26
    Lenglet 27
    Pavard 27
    Sane 28
    Lozano 28
    Alderweireld 29
    Isco 29
    Rakitic 30
    Dani Olmo 31
    Jovic 32
    Szczesny 32
    Parejo 33
    Lucas Hernandez 35
    Vela 36
    Keylor Navas 36
    Umtiti 37
    Jorginho 39
    Achraf Hakimi 52
    Ben Yedder 42
    Odegaard 44
    Handanovic 45
    Giroud 46
    Origi 47
    Hummels 47
    Abraham 48
    Courtois 48
    Neres 49
    Fabian Ruiz 50
    Fede Valverde 51
    Alejandro Gomez 51
    Insigne 51
    Koke 52
    Lucas Moura 53
    Arthur 54
    Vertonghen 57
    Cazorla 60
    Godin 60
    Bruno Henrique 63
    Bonucci 64
    Lacazette 68
    Havertz 73
    Jimenez 75
    Chiellini 76
    Bale 76
    Witsel 76
    Dani Alves 78
    Rodri 79
    Quagliarella 80
    Alaba 80
    Lloris 81
    Zupata 81
    Carvajal 82
    Gimenez 85
    Gabriel Jesus 87
    Depay 90
    Maguire 95
    Gabriel Barbosa 101
    Dybala 103
    Lauturo Martinez 106
    Haaland 106
    Neuer 106
    De Gea 108
    Rashford 110
    Saul 112
    Skriniar 116
    Pogba 117
    Verratti 119
    Cavani 122
    Lukaku 135
    Werner 136
    Thiago Silva 142
    Sule 149
    Mertens 153
    Icardi 157
    Thiago Alcantara 157
    Bruno Fernandes 161
    Reus 161
    Eriksen 169
    Immobile 174
    Henderson 176
    Busquets 184
    Mahrez 190
    Fernandinho 194
    Alba 200
    Modric 223
    Varane 226
    Marquinhos 227
    Kimmich 230
    Di Maria 231
    Vardy 231
    Gnabry 242
    Kroos 245
    Neymar 249
    Pique 263
    Van de Beek 263
    Fabinho 268
    Pjanic 276
    Ramos 280
    Casemiro 281
    Laporte 281
    Sancho 282
    Tadic 287
    Joao Felix 288
    Ederson 301
    Luis Suarez 308
    David Silva 309
    Wijnaldum 318
    Ziyech 319
    Kante 322
    Kane 335
    Koulibaly 352
    Aubameyang 361
    Benzema 379
    Robertson 381
    De Ligt 395
    Oblak 398
    Son 401
    Ter Stegen 402
    Griezmann 406
    De Bruyne 407
    De Jong 411
    Alexander-Arnold 412
    Bernardo Silva 431
    Firmino 432
    Aguero 433
    Hazard 453
    Alisson 454
    Lewandowski 465
    Sterling 467
    Mbappe 476
    Salah 476
    Mane 478
    Ronaldo 483
    Van Dijk 496
    Messi 498
     
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  12. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid

    15 goals+10 assists in 18 matches this season for neymar
    all the while completing the 2nd most dribbles in Europe

    If hazard had this output in a 40+ game season theyd be calling him world class,pfa contender etc....

    Neymar is on the cusp of something great in his career
    He needs some defining moments and in order for that to happen he needs to be match fit come the business end of the campaign

    Neymar is great
    Within a modern day context and will also (very) soon be within a all time context
     
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  13. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    He is on the cusp for 3 years now. Unfortunately few injuries stopped his moments. 2015 copa (if i remember cirrectly?). 2019 copa. 2018 and 19 ucl. And he wasnt 100 percent in world cup 18. Not to mention 2014 wc..

    Such a shame, but hopefully he can grab few highlights.

    Talent wise he is the best of the rest since ronaldinho. Comfortably more talented than hazard. I am not sure how people can argue otherwise.
     
  14. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
  15. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Hazard 11/12 albeit fantastic was nowhere near neymars current level

    Their dbs calcio and whoscored ratings are worlds apart
    Like in different dimensions in all honesty
     
  16. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Neymar lacks UCL as franchise player, Copa América and World Cup... titles and big moments.
    Statistics, consistancy and overall play he has to enter in a TOP10 of all time, but still needs more.



    Btw, his overall play is close now to Messi, in fact a bit more involved in build up plays (passes to the penalti area and to the final 1/3 of the pitch), but not quite there in terms specially of finishing, but OK. He abuses of the turnovers as well, but part is because he is fragile and don't want duel with french ligue 1 players (that are by far the most violent among the TOP5 league players).

    I don't think he can avoid injuries tho, also mantaing the focus.


    PD: Alisson still the best GK in the Premier League, it is not a coincidence. If we look at all the key moments, record against the arguably best shooter Messi, difficult saves, ball distribution and saved goals, he has to be the best goalkeeper since he is in Europe, as he was in Brazil too (with Internacional). Simply phenomenal!
     
  17. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Lille were not as stacked as this PSG side, in relation to their respective competition. What is really in different dimensions is their supporting casts and the gap between them and their competitions. It was a surprise Lille won the league, it is a surprise if PSG don't win the league with a double digit points gap.
     
  18. carlito86

    carlito86 Member+

    Jan 11, 2016
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Hazard in lille was a proven world class talent on his way to becoming a world class player

    Neymar in 2020 is an elite world class performer with a full trophy set(and tangible contributions in all the major titles he has won for Santos,Barcelona and now PSG)

    They(those 2 versions)are not comparable in any way shape or form

    The underdog argument is fallacious at best
    Its like saying shearer 94/95 for blackburn is inherently better or at least comparable to Henry 03/04
    Because the invincibles>>blackburn rovers
    Without taking into consideration the difference in skillsets and end product

    At least shearer 94/95 had 31 goals and 16 assists so his end product was actually not inferior to TH14
    Very much unlike Neymar vs hazard

    As ive said previously i think they(aswell as Gareth bale)were in the same ballpark up until 2014/15
    After which neymar left them in the dust
     
  19. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Is Neymar better than Hazard? Sure.
    Will Neymar go down as having been the greater of the two players? Very likely.

    Is Neymar miles ahead / in a different dimension or whatever other hyperbole being used? Nah.

    Every single trophy Neymar's teams have won in Europe would have been won w/without him. That's how good Barca and PSG are.
    They won't even need to replace him with an equally talented player in this hypothetical situation.
     
  20. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #95 PuckVanHeel, Feb 10, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
    Because Hazard plays more economical and to his strengths, and doesn't put your team off balance. Neymar can't do what he did for Lille. Put him into Lille and I doubt you get the same result.

    Thread:




    While Hazard was all the time the most fouled player of the league. That is luck, but it is also the art of not doing silly rabonas and going into blind alleys.

    At the same time he can do better in the Champions League but at tournament level and league level he was/is superb.

    In the matches they played against each other you can't say Neymar clearly looked more talented.
    Is it coincidence Brazil won a tournament without Neymar, maybe it isn't. He puts your team off balance and the pros do not always outweigh the cons.

    Despite grating people in the wrong way he is obviously talented but his numbers and highlight reels are better than his actual importance. There isn't a schism I think.
     
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  21. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Intellectual maneuvers are needed to compare Neymar with Hazard. However talented the Belgian may be, the Brazilian is much more impactful (as he was generating more xG + xA than the belgian in the confrontation between them in WC18, with the brazilian returning from injury), as he is also more impactful than Griezmann, Dembele or Coutinho for example. Neymar would probably do better than Hazard at Chelsea, Lille, Santos and anywhere, my opinion.

    Now, Hazard can prove me wrong, he will have the freedom to arrive and put astronomical figures in a Real Madrid that is very competitive team again, as a protagonist, so let's see what would be his weight there. But maybe I agree it is the first time that he is now in a better situation (having the role of protagonist in one of the two most prestigious clubs in the world, he had a protagonist role at Chelsea but meh in Europe for example, irregular in the league) something that Neymar didn't had at Barcelona and is only having now at PSG in a much less prestigious and violent league.

    Neymar is having a better season than Hazard btw.

    PD: Neymar doesn't cause any off-balance in the team or if he causes, the positive impacts are still much more rewarding than the negative ones and the results with him on the field are better as he had top GoalImpact at the moment. In fact, Brazil was the team with the best defense and attack according to the expected goal metric in the WC2018.
    What happens is that the Brazilian team started to get something stronger in 2016-2017 with a lot of players peaking in 2018, 2019 (Casemiro, Coutinho, Jesus reaching some level etc) and with the decline of Chile and others.
     
  22. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    [​IMG]

    His problem is the growing number of turnovers, but again most of it is because the CxB is bad, in the Ligue 1 he doesn't need put his foot in the duels to won that competition, so he is basically avoiding injuries now.

    But still he is P99 in most of offensive things. He is leading the stats of pass to the last 1/3, to the penalty area, line breaking passes, deep progressions and so on.

    He will certainly lessen the issue of turnovers in the Champions League KO, if he can play them of course. He would probably be more committed in that respect if he played in the Spanish league or another more prestigious league too, as he once did.
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #98 PuckVanHeel, Feb 10, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2020
    Hazard at his best has roughly half the number of turnovers as Neymar has.

    What is CxB?
     
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    https://www.quora.com/Who-is-a-better-player-Eden-Hazard-or-Neymar

    There are 'studies' out there that suggest Hazard is very similar to Messi in style (link 1, link 2).

    Some place Neymar way lower, others arrive to a different conclusion (better than Hazard, even better rank than Messi).

    This shows the difficulty of assessing.

    At the least I think we can recognize Neymar is more productive with goals and assists, quite possibly athletically more gifted (or nurtured), but also loses the ball (almost) twice as often and that on dangerous places too.

    As such, I think Hazard is a better fit for 'smaller' teams and Neymar for bigger teams. Hazard is more economical in his style (but relative lack of goals, assists, and the CL remains legit criticism, and Mourinho had criticism too).



    Overall Neymar is slightly ahead (in particular if Hazard 'fails' now at Real Madrid and doesn't find the same sharpness) but Hazard has an edge in the tournaments and the league seasons.

    It's madness how Real Madrid buys up the Brazilian talents for 50+ million (Rodrygo, Vinicius etc.). Power of marketing.
     
    Edhardy repped this.
  25. Tropeiro

    Tropeiro Member+

    Jun 1, 2018
    Cost-Benefit.

    OK, Neymar has more turnover than Hazard (I'm not sure if twice as much in his career average), but the best clubs are not paying and offer the best conditions for the best players be more economical, but to make a difference (high cost with big rewards), the best clubs like Real Madrid, PSG, Barcelona, Juventus etc they can afford difference makers.

    Talking about Hazard vs Neymar, I find this link comparing both among other players (Messi etc) with Wyscout data. https://thecomeonman.github.io/PlayerSimilarityFromAggregatedData/
    Data from Oct 2018 to Sept 2019 to use in this exercise.
     

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