2010 Sneijder David Villa Robben 2014 James Rodriguez Arjen Robben Lionel Messi 2018 Mbappe Hazard Modric It is pretty inexplicable how James was eliminated from the running for the golden ball only because his team did not progress beyond the QF I don’t recall robben or Messi doing anything noteworthy in their remaining game(s)
Agreed. I'm simply asking who has been the best in the world cup among all those players you've mentioned above. Stats are the least important factor here since we are comparing 3 different world cups
That’s not an easy answer All of the aforementioned players did not take the WC by storm in the latter stages James Rodriguez was for me the most dominant performance up to the QF I remember seeing since Hagi 94 (Even better than Rivaldo 2002 IMO) Messi entered the 2014 World Cup with the expectation that he would finally escape the shadow of Diego Maradona He fell short but to be fair to him anybody would fall short in comparison to maradona 86 He was undoubtedly one of the stars of the tournament,a world class performer all things considered but it isn’t something we would look back on in 5-10 years time and use as evidence of his greatness as a footballer Forlan perhaps deseves a honourable mention even if his golden ball was the weakest in recent memory To be frank I’m not sure if he was even that much better than Luis Suarez who was a bit underrated for his performance It doesn’t help of course Suarez was a dirty cheat that prevented Ghana from progressing to the QF (I’m sure Uruguayans would call him patriotic but that is a conversation for another day) My top 10 WC performances since 2010 would be James Rodriguez 2014 Arjen Robben 2014 Wesley sneijder 2010 Lionel Messi 2014 Xavi Hernandez 2010 Kylian mbappe 2018 Thomas Müller 2010 Eden hazard 2018 David Villa 2010 Neymar 2014 For me the top 5 are sealed/guaranteed inclusions while the others were all roughly at the same level and difficult to split (David Villa could be the weakest all rounder but he gets a place for being decisive in a tournament that Spain did not win all that convincingly)
I would be quite close to Carlito on this for sure, but after a check of my real-time views on this... https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/all-star-team.1481164/page-2 I came up with this as my two groups, if talking only of single tournaments rather than cumulatively.... James 2014 Hazard 2018 Iniesta 2010 Robben 2014 Messi 2014 Muller 2010 Mbappe 2018 Forlan 2010 Villa 2010 Sneijder 2010 I wouldn't necessarily be ruling out Xavi from the second group though for definite, among those 2010 choices, and similar could apply I guess to 2018 Golden Ball winner Modric. I'd be leaning towards the others based on my own recollections and impressions but I guess quite a few would mention them. If talking on a cumulative basis (considering their performances over 2010/2014/2018 combined) I'd be less clearly inclined towards James as first choice (and therefore my answer to the thread title) but might still go with that over Messi and Robben, while Iniesta might be in the mix with them too perhaps for me. So probably on single World Cup James, with Hazard as main alternative. Over all years maybe still James, but could be Messi as main challenger all in all in my mind.
Can I ask what Iniesta did in 2010 that impressed you? Any notable stat or games? Sneijder for example was directly involved in the creation of 9 goals, and then I don't mean creations of the sideways passes type. In what way was he better than Xavi.
Yeah, sure. The only problem is Puck as I guess you'll understand (hence me checking that thread in the first place - ironically on it I was questioned for giving Xavi too much credit and Iniesta not enough during the creation of a particular goal haha but that was a misunderstanding - by instigated I really meant initiated as in made the first incisive contribution in the move with his pass to Iniesta) it is a long time ago now! From what I remember though I clearly had it as pretty much a tie between Iniesta and Muller going into the final game (or perhaps into the semi-finals) and then Forlan helped his case in the latter stages (albeit not the Final), and in the Final Sneijder did create some good openings while Iniesta obviously scored the winning goal (without being absolutely fantastic over the whole 120 minutes IIRC). I felt that actually both Snejjder and Xavi were in better form for their clubs in terms of overall influence, when I'd seen certain Inter Milan and Barcelona games, but indeed they still registered on the stats sheet and that's not to be dismissed. Xavi was playing the more advanced role and early in the tournament that didn't seem to be working so well IIRC. It's mentioned by some on that thread also that he wasn't so influential as with Barcelona. I remember Tom Stevens had picked his 2010 WC out as an impressive one though and since I was in real-time more and more coming on board with him being at least among the good options ultimately then I felt it was worth adding the footnote that I don't rule him out. In terms of general play I personally tended to feel Iniesta was doing a bit better in the World Cup though, and he's never a player whose contributions show clearly in stats I suppose (but he had some key and impressive ones of course). I don't know if I can say much more, as it's a bit too long ago really, so hope you understand! As I've said before it's ok for us to disagree or have different perspectives occasionally of course!
I did just find this, so it could be helpful (I haven't watched it yet though, as I type this): Iniesta 2010 World Cup compilation I assume.
Looks too close to call for me. That said I think Sneijder was the only one who was decisively the best of his WC. In 2014 you have Robben competiting with James, maybe some Germany (Neuer?) and in 2018 a bunch of names (several French players, Modric) with Hazard.
The tournament I really did rate Sneijder's performances very highly in (while his team was still in it) was Euro 2008: https://www.theguardian.com/football/2008/jun/11/euro2008.euro2008groupc1 https://www.theguardian.com/football/2008/jun/13/euro2008groupc.holland I wouldn't use Kicker as gospel of course (or else, even though it's understandable to an extent due to some variability when it comes to their displays and also not reaching their very best due to injury issues I'd say, they rate Ronaldo and Bergkamp low in 1998 WC) but their average ratings do have Iniesta high and Sneijder quite low. I noticed a Guardian page with 2010 WC ratings given by readers, but just up to a certain stage (the page I found anyway) - some games Xavi is put above Iniesta but some he's quite low while Iniesta is more 'ok'. Sneijder's ratings actually seem overall pretty high at first glance, but maybe Forlan's higher. Anyway anyone can calculate things more precisely or correct me if I'm making mistakes at first view, but yeah of course it's just one group of viewers from the UK and not definitive anyway. http://www.kicker.de/news/fussball/...meisterschaft/2010/topspieler-der-saison.html https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/jun/30/world-cup-2010-player-ratings-table
When I read the thread title I thought the discussion would be about who was the best played overall in these 3 WCs. Not each individual WC from 2010 to 2018 (a discussion that has already been beaten to death). I guess a third interpretation is, who had the best single tournament in this time range? On the more interesting question, I would say Luis Suarez. He's the only attacker that comes to mind that had a big impact in all 3 World Cups. 2010: scored game's only goal against Mexico to help URU top the group (crucially - to get in easier bracket), drew the penalty against South Africa, then scored both goals in R16 v Korea 2014: scored both goals in huge match against England 2018: scored 2 game-winning goals in group stage, plus combined with Cavani for a beautiful and important goal v Portugal.
Eden hazard in the last World Cup is vastly overhyped IMO I remember seeing him against Brazil and thinking this is the exact hazard I remembered seeing for Chelsea when he is on top of his game Not a level above or whatever Then opta put out a stat that he completed the most dribbles in a WC in many decades So predictably people made the false equivalence between completing many dribbles in midfield areas and him being some legendary performer(it seems people are in desperate need of World Cup legends that they will invent them at any cost) The astonishing lack of emphasis on end product is telling James Rodriguez scored 6 goals and made a couple of assists (playing as an attacking midfielder) He produced genius moments in Brazil that will forever be associated with the World Cup Hazard was just good but not decisive and by my reckoning nowhere near James 2014 This is a game that should be first and foremost measured by your raw production(if you are an attacker of course) Robben 2014 could’ve also topped this list had he done a bit better in the KO stages @PDG1978 During the actual relevant time period iniesta was often ridiculed for being below par in the World Cup To get an accurate representation of how he was viewed you have to look for sources that were written pre World Cup final Post World Cup final everyones opinions became skewed and iniesta was the unquestionable hero Castrol did not list iniesta in their top 10 World Cup performers even though 6 Spanish players made the cut (This is a side point but Spain’s defence are generally overlooked when this topic is discussed Their defence record was astonishing throughout the tournament and one of the last times we saw them working together in a harmonious unit(before Mourinho came and indoctrinated Madrid players with his us vs them mentality leading to a lot of infighting with Barcelona/Madrid players when playing for the NT) Castrol listed iniesta the 50th best performer in 2009/10 Whoscored listed him the 21st highest rated player in La Liga 2009/10 if we considered the highest rated players by whoscored in all top 5 European leagues then Castrols rating of him wouldn’t seem harsh at all It begs the question how such a player could make the top 3 ballon D’Or At least with Xavi who maybe did not have such an outstanding World Cup but was a undisputed top 3 player in La Liga 2009/10 Inexplicably iniesta somehow managed to leapfrogg him in the ballon D’Or rankings for scoring in a World Cup final And than there is Cesc Fabregas One of the best performers in the EPL that season not to mention he assisted iniestas goal in the final. He finished 20th in the ballon I can assure You iniesta wasn’t 18 places better than Fabregas in 2010 (Not even 1 place for that matter) For me iniesta doesn’t belong anywhere near this list and I’m not a hater but just also not a revisionist
England wasn’t and arguably still isn’t a big team NT Under hodgson they got knocked out in the WC groupstage and the European championship groupstage during that time they were only good for trashing teams like San Marino/Malta/some other unidentifiable fishermen from the Mediterranean Sea
LOL, Suarez's goals that knocked England out of the World Cup weren't impressive because England got knocked out of the World Cup?
I think Fabregas was really good for a lot of 2009/10 too. But I gave my recollection of how I saw it personally in WC 2010 and I genuinely remember having at some late stage (maybe pre semi-final) Iniesta and Muller tied for best player. The consensus seems to actually be Forlan overall (the same as the Golden Ball award) looking back at some more Guardian pages I found for example (with journalists verdicts). There is a match report for the final that has a rating of 8 for Iniesta (and not above 6 for any other maybe even I think it was - I think Xavi was on 6, but he and Iniesta both received 7 from France Football for example). I wouldn't say the Final should be weighted far far above other games, but since I already had him as a prime candidate then I guess it was natural to have him ahead. I did see James's 2014 tournament, even exiting earlier, as a better candidate though still, and probably Hazard 2018 too at least (I can see your point about end product but the contra point is that it can't be said that no positive and skilful contributions outside goals and assists matter I think - I'm not saying you're saying that and above all I'd prefer not to argue after this to be honest lol - I did start my original post with a statement that I see things quite a lot like you do anyway!).
I could agree with Hazard not being some clear level above what he shows for Chelsea too for sure though Carlito mate. I think any player matching his best club form (not that I'd be sure about going so far as saying that necessarily) would often be considered a prime candidate if he's a top level star though - some rare exceptions like Maradona in 86 do have an even bigger impact than for their club and exceed their best club form of course, while some players of a slightly lesser reputation find their best or most significant form in the WC perhaps (but Toto had had a decent 89/90 season I know for example, and Klose had an excellent 05/06). But yeah, I think on balance a player can have just a 'middling' output in goals+assists but contribute quite a lot more with passing/dribbling/retaining possession/helping momentum etc and Hazard vs Brazil can be a good example of that IIRC. In a relatively short tournament all goals and assists (but particularly high quality ones at crucial moments like Hazard vs Japan, or Iniesta vs Paraguay) can be significant even with modest overall stats I think.
England got knocked out of two consecutive tournaments because they couldn’t beat teams like Iceland,Algeria,Slovakia Suárez was the final blow but that’s it. 1 game against a team like England isn’t proof of his greatness nor consistency over 3 World cups. Suárez was a solid performer in 2010 I give him that(he was here operating in a secondary role with not as much responsibilities and he was impressive) In 2014 and 2018 I’m not convinced at all There was a wild claim made here a little while ago that Suarez was the best NT performer of this generation When these types of claims are banded around anything is possible
Who cares about who's the best NT-performer, anyway? NT-level is full of teams who have lost to someone.
I think the potential/ceiling of James Rodriguez in 2014 was even higher than Neymar or hazard He emerged out of nowhere really after 1 good season with Monaco and he was superb in the World Cup In 2014/15 there is a case he wasn’t inferior to anyone in Spain not named Messi or ronaldo It is a shame he hasn’t built on that even though he has shown sporadic glimpses of his genius at Bayern Munich Below is a comp on James Rodriguez at World Cup 2014 Outside of stats he was pretty amazing aswell.i remember at the time feeling that he had been treated unfairly by the ref in the QF The Brazilian players were playing very dirty and aggressive towards him but the ref did nothing to protect him James Rodriguez brought some of the magic back into the World Cup that had been missing since zidane How would iniestas World Cup performance be viewed without his final goal I think is an interesting question I would say zidane 1998 was clearly above(2 final goals are better than one and zizou could of actually had a few assists weren’t it for the ineptitude of his teammates finishing) Here are some advanced statistics that could be used to back up my premise argument regarding iniesta being generally overrated in 2009/10 and even Including his standout performance in 2010 vs Holland Opta stats(a blueprint source for many here) World Cup final 2010 Andrés Iniesta 1 goal 1 shot on target 0 shots of target 61 total passes 49 completed passes 80.3% pass completion rate 35 Forward passes 2 key passes 3 tackles Xavi Hernandez 0 shots on target 2 shots off target 97 passes 90 passes completed 93% pass completion rate 57 forward passes 5 key passes 4 tackles https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DAb4HcUJfx-zk8jL7b6AdoUFsjkzxhh2vTdmtYBhndQ/htmlview?hl=en# There is also a (less convincing) case for Wesley sneijder for being more of a threat in this match The only match iniesta was impressive in was against Paraguay A Paraguay that was ranked 30th in the world behind NTs like Romania,Slovenia,Israel,Serbia etc I don’t attach much importance to these kind of rankings but there are many here who do
Ok cool, I'll make this my last contribution to the thread now (not your fault but it's easy to let myself be dragged in beyond what I want to post if you know what I mean), but yes I do have some kind of recollections about James being treated a bit unfairly in the way you describe, while also having some good moments creatively in that game still. The problem I have with stats is every pass is judged to be the same as every other pass(beyond being successful or not anyway), every 'dribble' is considered worth the same as every other 'dribble'. There is no context basically, and no consideration of different roles. But I understand that as soon as some subjectivity was introduced (in coming to marks out of 10 using stats but adjusting them on a qualitative basis) then it'd no longer be factual but down to opinion again (just like with traditional marks out of 10). Of course I realise if someone says some player was a great dribbler in a World Cup and the stats say he only made 10 dribbles then that person's memory might be off! But although some complicated calculations about expected outcomes are being introduced I think in general a stats-only conclusion is a bit flawed (you probably agree though) and doesn't really tell someone what they'd think once they see the games, if they see the raw stats first. EDIT - I tend to think I'd agree on Zidane 98 vs Iniesta 2010, although Iniesta didn't get himself sent off at any point of course! I'd say (after my memory was refreshed) Iniesta had a very good Final, but Zidane an even better one (in general play, creating nice openings etc, not only amount of goals). Maybe it's an arguable one over the whole World Cup (although like you suggest maybe the consensus wouldn't give the same verdict to Iniesta as I did) - Kicker interestingly had both high in their average ratings but I think that was in both cases erring on the high side compared to other sources (not sure now though whether one or two, possibly Italian ones, had Zidane even higher in comparison to other players in '98 - obviously the scale would be different as it'd be marks out of 10).
Just better than anyone else across those 3 WCs, imo. He got Uruguay at least one round farther each WC because of him, and in the case of 2010, two rounds farther. That's assuming they would've even qualified without Suarez, which is another doubt.
Yeah that’s a bit of a disingenuous claim(being the best over 3 tournaments even if I know what you meant) Maradona was in the running for best player in 3 tournaments(top 10 player) in 1982,1986 and 1990 Beckenbauer was in the running for best player in 3 tournaments (top 10 player) in 1966,1970.1974 Suarez Popping up for 1 game per tournament in 2014 and 2018 isn’t consistent greatness (unless you are saying the standards of World Cup individual performances have dropped so low that playing 1 good game per tournament has become such a noteworthy achievement) There are players like Arjen Robben who had more/as many world class performances in 1 tournament as Suarez had in his World Cup career Are you going to be like those people who claim it is such an amazing achievement that Cristiano Ronaldo scored in 4 consecutive world cups without specifying the context(he scored only 1 goal in 3 of those tournaments) LOL
You are either having a counting problem or a problem in logical thinking. Or both. If Suarez only has one good game per WC, then you are obviously only counting games against opposition at least as good as England. A bit of an odd methodology to apply on a tournament that is pretty short to begin with, but whatever... even if I agree with that methodology to count # of world-class performances, surely you can't use it to show that Suarez is inconsistent. Its not like he had one good game and the rest were bad. In 2018, he had one good game against strong opposition and 2 good games against weaker opposition (i.e. Russia, Saudi Arabia ). He also had at least 3 good games in 2010 but maybe only 1 could be considered a good opponent (I guess, but again... seems like silly methodology to apply in a tournament that lasts 5 games total) That said, one can certainly make the case that Robben was the best forward overall in these 3 WCs. I think you might be over-counting the # of world-class performances he had, especially if games against opposition weaker than England don't count. But 'world-class' is so subjective, and "weaker than England" is also subjective (dumb methodology to apply) I won't nitpick too much on that.
Forlan is vastly underrated here it seems. He carried Uruguay to the semifinals scoring some pretty impressive golazos in the 2010 WC.