Milan bought Dugarry when they were beaten by Bordeaux... He was the real motm that tie. This helps: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/the-best-players-of-the-season-1995-6.2036872/page-5#post-34914487 Also check the assists.
Although I think the goals it's not a proof or a fact, we agreed that during that period Best showed world-class (even in 1967-68 a legendary-class for me and arguably up to 3 seasons before (1964-65, 1965-1966 and 1966-67)), but for the comparison I focused more on the rest of his career, since approximately the 1972-73 season after turning the 26 years old. I know Manchester United lived through irregular stages while Best lived the best of his career. I'm considering it in this criticism.
1970-2010 - 40 Biggest Brazilian Players - PLACAR Ed Abril/2010 40 Nelinho 39 P. César Caju 38 Alex de Souza 37 Lúcio 36 Roberto Carlos 35 Zinho 34 Túlio 33 Serginho 32 Ademir da Guia 31 Roberto Dinamite 30 Casagrande 29 Neto 28 Leandro 27 Robinho 26 Marcelinho Carioca 25 Marcos 24 Rogério Ceni 23 Bebeto 22 Edmundo 21 Taffarel 20 Sócrates 19 Éder 18 Dunga 17 Renato Gaúcho 16 Jairzinho 15 Cafú 14 Raí 13 Muller 12 Toninho Cerezo 11 Rivaldo 10 Reinaldo 9 Júnior 8 Ronaldinho 7 Rivelino 6 Kaká 5 Careca 4 Romário 3 Paulo Roberto Falcão 2 Zico 1 Ronaldo
Yes that has been discovered before in the Placar digital archives on the internet but good to see again.
Zidane at club level is not to be compared with George best With have established both players had a similar amount of world class seasons whilst one reached a phenomenon level and the other not a level high enough to separate himself from the rest Even in 2000 at the height of his fame it wasn’t clear zidane was definitely better than figo He won the ballon dor/FWPOTY in 1998 despite not being a top 3 player in Serie A(R9,Del piero,totti) despite not being a top 5 player in the World Cup,despite not even being his teams own best player in the champions league There is no doubt about George best in 1968,at club level he was the standout performer in the world(at the euros dzajic has a case but he played his club football in relative obscurity) Factoring in international performances I have no issue if you feel that bridges the gap between best and zidane but I do have a problem with the idea that based on club performances alone zidane had any right being a tier ahead of George best George best declined early (26 years old) but who was zidane at a similar age? A player with literally 1 club season under his belt where he was amongst the top 10 club players in the world Zidane should be ranked alongside Ruud Gullit,Romario,Xavi,matthaus,baggio Around 25-30 all time Slightly behind Bobby Charlton,George best,Marco Van Basten,garrincha etc and slightly ahead of Henry,Rivaldo,Ronaldinho,Rummenigge,laudrup A player who was never seriously considered the best player in a single club season in his career should never be considered for top 20 all time status It just doesn’t make sense at all to me
None of these six featured in FourFourTwo's Top 100 in 2017, and only one, Josef Bican, appeared in the Top 100 PDG compiled by combining the input of numerous BigSoccer posters with other sources. He was 60th there. Yet all six men enjoy significant local recognition. Starting with Bican, one issue is his dual footballing nationality. Born in Vienna of Czech descent, the first part of his career took place in Austria where he played 19 internationals. After falling out with club and country he then refused to play for Nazi Germany after the Anschluss. Applying for Czechoslovak citizenship, Bican's paperwork was not completed in time for him to represent Czechoslovakia at the 1938 World Cup. He had performed satisfactorily for Austria in the 1934 tournament, but a good showing in 1938 would undoubtedly have enhanced his reputation. Now with the Slavia Prague club, Bican was popular with fans but not with teammates who regarded him as Austrian at a time their country was being occupied. He scored lots of goals for Slavia, mostly during World War II against weakened opposition. After the war he turned down a move to Juventus, fearing a Communist takeover in Italy, and lost another opportunity to raise his profile. When the Communists took control of Czechoslovakia Bican refused to join the party, which restricted his international appearances and damaged his reputation further. It was partly restored after the revolution in 1989. In 2000 the Czech magazine Gol ranked Bican the second best-ever Czech player after Masopust. In 2009 journalists from the publication Mlada fronta Dnes voted him the greatest Czech footballer of all time. But most football historians still regard him as belonging to Austria where he scored only 16% of his goals. He did not appear in any of the 20th century lists, apart from a Europe-only one from IFFHS where he ranked 28th. It is now generally accepted that Bican is the leading goalscorer of all time in official matches with 805+ goals, and one of only seven men with 600 or more. Excluded from the reckoning are the German Helmchen and Dutchman Lenstra because their goal tallies are deemed to have been compiled against insufficiently strong opposition. The other “official” six rank as follows among FourFourTwo's Top 100 footballers: Messi 2, Pele 3, Cristiano Ronaldo 5, Puskas 9, Muller 17, Romario 21. As noted earlier Bican is not ranked at all. It seems that Bican has fallen between two stools. He is considered to have played a higher standard of football than Helmchen or Lenstra, but a much lower one than the famous six. And he is regarded as neither fully Austrian nor fully Czech. Belatedly recognised in Prague, Bican may have been underrated as a footballer elsewhere. Genuinely two-footed, he could run 100 metres in under 11 seconds, and scored prolifically wherever he went.
Haven't seen that yet. Was is fanvoted? WTF is up with Kaka being ranked so high? The ranking of Roberto Carlos and Socrates is interesting. I like Falcao being 3rd.
My eyes must be playing tricks on me but did they just include Robinho but not gerson/tostao(even if tostao retired in 73 even one year of his prime was easily better than Robinhos whole career) I also fail to see the logic behind Roberto Carlos being ranked 20 places behind Cafu(and also behind Robinho/dunga...and serginho seriously LMFAO dude that is an insult to the R Carlos) Really many of these all time lists hold hardly any significance beyond their entertainment value
It seems it was just done by one guy and not a vote or anything. After reading the writeup about each player in the magazine it's even more confusing. About R. Carlos for example: "Many see it as an injustice that he was never voted by FIFA as the best player in the World" The only way I can see it making sense is if it means to rank the players who were covered the most in Placar.
One correction, Zidane had 2 assists against Milan, the deflected one that you mentioned and the one for Dugarry's deciding goal. Also, his overall play which doesn't come across in that video which you shared, was excellent across both legs. Plus, I think you are underselling Rotor Volvograd and Slavia Prague. Rotor Volvograd knocked out a young but strong Manchester United team, before being knocked out by Bordeaux. Slavia Prague knocked out Roma themselves. So these were not the kind of contenders whom a team like Bordeaux could have taken lightly. Essentially, Zidane's stature is to be based on the fact that he was performing for Bordeaux, which was not as big a team as many others. In any case, since the question is whether ZIdane was World class in 1995/96, therefore we need to look at the entire season. Sadly, some of his better games are not available for viewing (like his performance vs Metz) but you have ones like the below vs the 94/95 French league champions Nantes (who also reached the CL semifinal in 95/96 giving eventual CL champions Juventus a major scare while beating them in the SF 2nd leg) - Overall, Zidane had 30 goals+assists that season in club football, which is definitely in the World Class territory for that era.
That was hardly an assist by zidane for dugarry He literally dribbled into open space with no defenders surrounding him ,attempted a shot into a defensive wall which consequently then came off for the rebound The fK assist was also deflected so really they would today be classified as wide assists and not strict ones I’m also not sure where you got the figure of 30 goals+assists in 95/96 from(do you have a source link) In ligue 1 he scored 6 goals+10 assists (in 34 games) Where did these extra 14 goals+assists come from. it also doesn’t help that zidane was a non factor against Bayern Munich and only contributed against Milan via wide assists These are the only 2 good teams he faced (real betis finished 8th in La Liga) And this was one of the only periods of time during which both Madrid and Barcelona weren’t impressive and struggled simultaneously La Liga was probably the 3rd best league in Europe at that time behind Serie a and the emerging premiership Ligue 1 is generally a league that hasn’t been taken seriously from a historic perspective when it comes to individual awards Papin was the only one who got recognised whilst everyone knows savicevic got robbed that year Zidane had 0 ESM team of the month rankings in 95/96 whilst others like cantona,Del piero,R9,ginola,Rui Costa,litmanen etc made the cut He also wasn’t on the ballon D’Or shortlist There is nothing I have seen as of yet that would suggest zidane was a world class player in 1995/96 Even if we accept World class is any recognised top 20 player in the world he was not that(at least not for another season)
Subjectivity aside, it was an assist that you missed, which I wanted to correct hence I pointed it out. As for how good it was, I am sure people can make up their own minds regarding this aspect. There were two sources for the assists - https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinédine_Zidane http://www.scapulaire.com/Seasons.php?Page=Player&SquadID=1224 The 2nd one now seems to be locked behind a private login, although it was open access earlier when I had shared it on Bigsoccer (4-6 years back). Zidane was suspended for the 1st leg vs Bayern Munich along with Dugarry. Lizarazu was injured at the 30 minute mark in the 2nd leg. These aspects set the tone of the final in favour of Bayern. Zidane was on the Balon d'Or shortlist for 1996 and was at the 28th position in the final ranking. The 1995 Balon 'Or awarded the players for their 94/95 season (unlike the 1996 one which awarded players for their 95/96 performances), which was the shortlist that Zidane didn't feature in. As for your comment regarding Ligue 1's quality, the UEFA coefficients do not seem to support your beliefs. Check this link (Ligue 1 is at 2nd place in the 5 year country ranking) - https://kassiesa.home.xs4all.nl/bert/uefa/data/method1/crank1996.html You might want to get more information before deciding IMHO. Maybe you can share the list of players (who were worldclass in your opinion) who had more than 30 goals+assists while operating from Zidane's position, in that season.
Firstly zidane played 50+ games so the figure of 30 goals+assists isn’t as impressive as it first sounds and pales in comparison to hazard 2011/12 for example A world class player is essentially a player who is tried,tested and proven against great teams outside the confines of a domestic league A player who finished 28th in the ballon dor is in all likelihood not even a top 5 best performer in own his position Zidane wasn’t great in European club competitions in the 90s,wasn’t good in Euro 1996 Outside of his 2 final goals in the 98 final Zidanes legacy is very much dependent what he achieved between 2000-2003 and even so he was never viewed as a unanimous best player in the world Or a player who had separated himself from the “chasing pack” George best was in 1968 a complete beast in the European cup with goals and assists against Real Madrid in the SF and a winning goal vs benfica in the final,the top scorer in his domestic league playing as a wide player All At the age of 22 years old Zidane was not that and no amount of revisionism will change that fact. Don’t get me wrong zidane was one of my favourites growing up and I won’t have him being belittled with comparisons to players like iniesta/modric but facts are facts and he was never consistent enough to be considered the best player even across 1 season in his career Which is why he lost the ballon D’Or to 6 different players during his prime 1997-2003 And which is why besides the 98 award that he undeservedly won he only finished in the top 3 one other time in his career Even so the early 2000s was a relatively weak era for competition before the prime of Thierry Henry/Ronaldinho For competition he had the very inconsistent rivaldo who was dominant in only one year,the short peak of figo that ended after his first season with Real Madrid And some other world class players the likes of which appear in every generation like totti,Raul,Beckham etc In the 90s there were many like zidane hence the reason he did not stick out so much
Alright I see. I think the French league was pretty decent at that time though. 19/23 of their Euro squad played there
Kaka was the Brazilian with the most Champions League (and continental) goals before Neymar broke it at the end of last year.
Kaka was perhaps a rare case of a player who performed better in continental competitions than he did in the domestic league He had solid champions league performances in 03/04,04/05 ,05/06 and 06/07 His league form varied from very good to downright ordinary especially in the years he was living off past reputation 2008-2010(admittedly he did struggle with various knee injuries tearing his meniscus but even before 2009 he was showing signs of being a inconsistent league performer)
I asked you a simple question, how many other players that you deem to be world class had better stats during that season? After all, there is no point in bringing up players who had better stats 15 years later, to measure Zidane's level during his era. As for the number of games that Zidane featured in, there were other players who also played 50+ games during that season, so that is a moot point. Frankly, the above comes off as a bit of a rant. You mentioned earlier that Zidane did not even feature in the Balon d'Or shortlist for the season under discussion (95/96), in response to which I posted my correction. I am not sure why you feel the need to associate that correction with the stuff that you mention above, or what is supposed to be the point of it. My response was to the question of whether Zidane was world class in 95/96. I have mostly responded with facts. I am not sure where the charge about revisionism or the George Best comparison comes from. Another correction here, but Zidane was on the Balon d'or podium in 1997 as well, so it was 3 times in 7 years. Out of these, he can be termed unlucky to not win in 2000 due to non-sporting considerations and unlucky again to get injured before the tournament during a WC year in 2002, when he was at his absolute peak and when he could have again made the podium quite easily. It is disheartening that you would not mention these circumstantial challenges when they ended up being detrimental for Zidane (but do so when its the opposite case), even though he was one of your favorites while growing up (as you state above). As for his consistency, strangely enough for a player panned for this criteria, he is the attacker with the most ESM monthly appearances from his era. Considering that ESM was for club performances alone, which are supposed to be his weak area, I am beginning to feel that maybe there has been some strong revisionism going on to try and downplay this aspect, since it was easy to do in his case. Now for the rest of what you have written, my belief is that strong competition (i.e. both from other attacking players as well as from defensive greats in stopping said attackers) during Zidane's era was the reason for so many ups and downs in terms of winners and top-3s. In fact, IMHO if the same faces keep appearing for years on end on the podium for an award (irrespective of the ups and downs seen in these players' own form), it actually indicates a lack of competition during such an era for said award. I don't agree with your assessment. I believe that the early 2000s was an era of extremely competitive and high quality football. For instance, Euro 00 is still considered as a landmark tournament, specifically for its quality.
Good call, but how often do you see someone ranking Kaka ahead of Ronaldinho? I've never even seen them being compared.
Zidane obviously badly tarnished his legacy with that headbut . Wonder how he'd be seen had he managed the situation better , got man of match and they'd won the WC .. Pretty sure he'd had a great 1/4 and semi final previous to the final
True about the headbutt negatively impacting him, especially with respect to some people from within France (e.g. the editor of the France Football magazine who said as much in Zidane's "Greatest Ever" documentary). Although it also did give him a kind of notoriety that is difficult to achieve for most players. Ultimately, I guess such what ifs are what make Zidane's career so fascinating.
True about the headbutt negatively impacting him, especially with respect to some people from within France (e.g. the editor of the France Football magazine who said as much in Zidane's "Greatest Ever" documentary). Although it also did give him a kind of notoriety that is difficult to achieve for most players. Ultimately, I guess such what ifs are what make Zidane's career so fascinating.
Firstly i was initially discussing zidane being ranked a tier ahead of George best with another poster. Factoring zidanes big performances on the international stage I would have no problem ranking them on a equal tier I have a problem with any suggestion that zidane had a comparable club career to George best based on either longevity or consistency Zidane wasn’t definitely better than Del piero in juventus before 1999 and this is pretty much well known and undisputed Zidane also never did well in dbs calcio ratings in Italy (whilst players like totti,Del piero,ronaldo de Lima even bierhoff did) Not saying dbs calcio is the ultimate standard of truth but it more often then not gives an indication on who the best players were(especially for Serie A it is more accurate) His longevity is also part myth if we’re being honest post 2003 it is possible riquelme had reached his level (as early as 2004/05) this has been covered and I haven’t seen any thing that would suggest otherwise Zidanes reign at the top (if we can call it that) was from 2000-2003 Zidane did experience a lot of luck during this period with R9 out of the picture in 1999 never to be the same player again Del piero also In late 1998 suffered a career defining injury Thierry Henry had not peaked till 2002 and Ronaldinho not till 2004 There really wasn’t that many elite players left at the time barring Luis Figo(and Rivaldo did have a renaissance period around 2002 that did not last long) It helps when you are pitted against a bunch of regular world class players like Francisco totti,Raul,Shevchenko,Rui Costa,David Beckham the type of players that appear in every single generation Many players winning an award could suggest a highly competitive era or it could suggest that nobody is great enough to dominate The Messi ronaldo duopoly wasn’t broken for 10 years during that time there was more than 1 wide players who reached a level comparable to prime Luis Figo Ribery 2013 Robben 2014 Neymar 2015(or even 2017) weren’t lesser players imo There was also many strikers at the level of prime Shevchenko Including lewandowski,Suarez,ibrahimovic and even prime RVP for that matter This era was/has been loaded with world class talent and the last great era where many players all simultaneously operated at peak level was probably 1990-1994 With savecivic,Romario,Van basten,prosinecki,bergkamp,baggio,cantona,bebeto,stoichkov,laudrup,maldini,koeman etc......
He's still my fave ever player . So elegant and technically gifted .. I always thought Ginola was freakishly gifted .
Latin American posters will know more about Walter Gomez than I do, and their input would be welcome. A few thoughts in the meantime. It is difficult to think of any footballer with a greater disparity between their local reputation and how they are assessed in the wider world. Gomez never appears in any global best-player lists and never has done. Many in Europe have never heard of him. Yet observers in Uruguay in the late 1940s and Argentina during the first half of the 1950s place him in the very highest class. As with Bican, circumstances had something to do with it. While still in his teens Gomez won two championships with Nacional and played four matches for Uruguay. But in 1949 he punched a referee in the face and was banned for a year. Nacional sold him to River Plate in neighbouring Argentina, who were looking to replace Di Stefano after he left for the Colombian league. So not only would Gomez miss the 1950 World Cup, which Uruguay ended up winning. Under Uruguayan rules, he could not represent his country again while playing abroad. And he never did. That meant missing the 1954 World Cup as well, when a strong Uruguay side reached the semi-finals. Gomez won three titles with River Plate, breaking the record for goals scored for the club by a foreigner. But it was about a lot more than goals. Vegan10 recently posted a clipping in which River goalkeeper Carrizo claimed that Gomez was more of a virtuoso than Di Stefano with better ball control. Gomez had excellent technique, was two-footed and good in the air. Another teammate Sivori commented: “I only knew of one player who could win a game when he wanted to, and that was Walter Gomez. He wandered around the pitch absentmindedly, returned for five minutes and scored or made us score a few goals.” It is worth bearing in mind that the legendary La Maquina River Plate team was not long in the past – Labruna and Lostau were still there – so many of those who rated Gomez so highly would also have seen Moreno, Pedernera and Di Stefano. Gomez then spent a couple of years in Italy with Palermo when past his best. Had he gone to Europe earlier no doubt he would have been more widely appreciated. As regards his reputation in his homeland before the transfer to River Plate, veteran Uruguayan journalist Marcelo Weinberger had this to say in a discussion with Gabriele Marcoti: “The less known Walter Gomez was considered in Uruguay to be better than [his contemporary] Schiaffino.” And Schiaffino is still regarded as Uruguay's greatest player.