Interesting, Radio Times nicknamed him 'king' before he moved to Spain. #OTD 1973 📺 As #Ajax of Holland prepare to defend their European Cup crown against #Juventus of Italy, Arsenal's Bob Wilson ,who has played against Johan Cruyff five times assesses the remarkable talents of the Ajax skipper - who dons the front cover of Radio Times pic.twitter.com/RliD08Rcs6— Briffa (@goonerbeau) May 30, 2018
http://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2017/09/12/7-most-influential-men-in-football-history/ This is a much better list than some of the other folks do. Netherlands has almost as many World Cup semi final appearances as England, France and Spain combined, without the special perks as seeding #againstantiDutchrevisionism, #againstthemediaclowns.
I will post some interesting factoids of the Voetbal International guide later, but (maybe) also interesting is their discussion of the best World Cup player for each top 10 country in the all-time table. Sweden: Lennart Skoglund was eventually selected. Also discussed were Hamrin, Liedholm, Brolin and Larsson. Uruguay: Schiaffino with his five goals, though they're unsure how good he really was in 1950. Also his contemporary Oscar Miguez got a shout. Had Suarez been fit in 2014 and had he behaved himself better, he would have some support too. Andrade, maybe. Netherlands: Cruijff, Robben and Bergkamp had each their supporters. Tend to agree with them Bergkamp was arguably top 10/top 15 material in the two tournaments he played and several impressive moments such as against Korea, Mexico (a good Mexico team), Brazil, Yugoslavia and Argentina stand out. England: Bobby Moore, topped off by assisting in the final itself. There were doubts about how many good World Cup games Charlton has played. Also Lineker was highlighted as a strong performer, delivering when it was needed the most. France: Zidane, no contest there. Spain: a debate between Xavi and David Villa there. From previous 'non successful' generations they liked Hierro. Hierro played decent/well in three tournaments and was productive too in three tournaments, although he conceded quite a few goals. Then there are also various other one tournament performers like Zarra, Butragueno ("good in 1986, below par in 1990")... Argentina: Diego Maradona. Italy: hard to assess the pre-war tournaments. For post war they agreed on Paolo Rossi. Rossi was top class material in two tournaments and didn't boast his tally with penalties. Excluding penalties he's Italy's all-time topscorer in the World Cup (next to Vieri, had only two KO goals, against Norway and against Korea). There was debate about whether Baggio played well in 1994, and how many games. Also calls for Rossi being a better footballer overall in 1978 than in 1982. Germany: Beckenbauer. Also comments on/for Overath, Muller, Klinsmann, Matthaus, Seeler and Rahn. They believed Breitner wasn't playing well in 1982 despite scoring (again) in the final. A very split opinion on their best player of the past 10-15 years... Brazil: Pelé of course.
This are the ones that appeared in both So Foot and France Football their list (with 3 to go for FF): https://www.francefootball.fr/news/...marque-l-histoire-de-la-coupe-du-monde/889442 Included in both: Baggio Banks Barthez Bebeto Beckenbauer Bergkamp Brehme Buffon Cannavaro Carlos Alberto Charlton Cruijff Diop Eusebio Figo Fontaine Forlan Garrincha Gotze Hagi Henry Iniesta Jairzinho Kempes Klose Kocsis Leonidas Lineker Maradona Materazzi Matthaus Meazza Messi Milla Moore G. Muller T. Muller Neeskens Passarella Pele Platini Puskas Puyol Rensenbrink Robben J. Rodriguez Romario Ronaldinho Ronaldo Rossi Salenko Schilacci Sneijder Stoichkov Suker Thuram Walter Xavi France Football needs to run down letters Y and Z still (three more players get included) and these might overlap: Zagallo Zidane Zico Zoff Yashin My bet is FF will include the middle three... Or maybe still Yashin since the tournament is played in Russia, but that would run against their earlier writings. I'm the least sure about Barthez, Diop, Figo, Gotze, Henry, Puskas and Salenko, I think.
Yeah, so looking at my list as per the link I quoted earlier (which would be adjusted to insert James Rodriguez and Messi after that World Cup in 2014) I include based on that idea/brainstorm 13 of the players in 'stars' on the cover. 2 would be really borderline as have been in my list originally or mentioned since (Klose in FF's list, and Pirlo not). The other 2 would be fairly close at least too to be fair (Buffon in FF's list, Valderrama not). From the list you made for both French sources including the same players, I have 41 players also in my list, (assuming obviously that FF included Zidane and Zico and there's no way they left out the former I think anyway so it's at least 40) - including only Puskas from the ones you doubted yourself indeed, but excluding some more too although a few appeared in my 'single World Cups' list I seem to think. damn, I entered this by mistake temporarily in the World Cup legends thread, where my list I was looking at was lol (maybe you had an alert or an email indicating it too!).
I'm not sure if that post makes much sense here (maybe better by PM!) but Puck had been interested how many names I had in my list made in 2014 (ahead of my further comments about FF's list). I didn't provide any link in the thread earlier, only by PM. It'll teach me not to concentrate when I have several windows open! Since I mentioned it I'll copy and paste and highlight the names me and both French sources have though now!
Those few I think would be Robben (2014), Forlan (2010), Brehme (1990) and Carlos Alberto (1970) IIRC.
Yeah, on a single World Cup I'd put Carlos Alberto definitely in. Robben perhaps more so over multiple World Cups (group of death in 2006 and 2014, playing 17 minutes in group stage in 2010). Searching around a bit more found this: "Robben (106) is one of only five players with 100 or more dribbles at the World Cup finals since 1966. Robben has been fouled more often at the World Cup than any other player since the 2006 edition (47 times) [6th all-time]. Robben was the only player with more than one shot on target in the 2010 World Cup final (two)." Here you can find some of the episodes I talked about: https://www.reddit.com/r/footballhi...cz/head_2_head_maradona_v_pele_29th_may_2018/ It hasn't Bale vs Beckham and Basten vs Klinsmann uploaded, but since you're interested in what they said I'll type down the best pieces of the latter (also in favor of Klinsmann).
Thanks. I search my posts and realise now it was only C.Alberto and Robben I had in for single WCs, not Brehme and Forlan although I guess they'd be close, as others like Thomas Muller for 2010 and Buffon and Figo for 2006 could be.
Having, I think (if I did it right - must be close) worked out which players I have that neither French source does I'll post those here as examples of notable omissions from both of them - I guess it'd hard to really evaluate players from the 1938 or even 1954 World Cup so much though of course to be fair: Didi Krol M.Laudrup Deyna Klinsmann Rep Tigana Ardiles Sarosi Scirea Florian Albert Boniek Gerson Paulo Roberto Falcao Varela Bozsik Hidegkuti Ceulemans Piola Dasaev Brolin Fillol Hamrin Czibor Bene Stojkovic Zizinho(?) Djalma Santos Zito(?) Scifo Bossis Grosics Preud'homme Piantoni Jorginho That was in order pretty much, so I'm seeing Didi as a surprising omission (oversight even? maybe not though) and Krol as a notable one too (I know you've said yourself Puck that he felt himself he might have even played better in than he eventually did in 1978 though - that his best club form had been superior to what he showed in that WC even). Michael Laudrup perhaps isn't surprising for me to be naming, but I'd feel within 100 he merits it more than a Figo or Henry for example personally certainly when adding 1986 to 1998. Deyna is at least mildly surprising, and both accolades and stats seem to suggest his 1974 alone might be enough but maybe it was felt in 1978 if anything he harmed his overall legacy.... Nice lists though by both sources, and I'll come back later as suggested to make some comments after viewing the pages for France Football's collection.
So the other episodes can be found in that link, but here the most notable comments of the MvB vs Klinsmann episode (19 vs 5 votes) - effectively leaving out what Jenas said (not only the 'worst' footballer of the panel, but also the most bland in his commentary). I think this is a fair reflection and I left out things of which I felt it was double. Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler Skills (4 vs 0): Matthaus: "Jurgen was not a great technical player. He was to be renowned for his mentality, he knows where he has to be in the box, but technique was not his quality. But he was fighting, was giving his best, he was motivating and never gave up. This was a quality of Jurgen. Van Basten had a very good technique and you could really play football with him while with Jurgen that was sometimes not possible. Beckenbauer told in the quarter final of 1990 [against Czech Republic] 'don't give the ball to Jurgen any more because we will always go defending in the counter attack'. This was after the game against Holland where he played brilliant. This is Jurgen." Lineker: "As Lothar quite rightly said, Jurgen was an unusually enigmatic footballer. He used to remind me of a young horse, in the way he strode out his long legs. When it comes to skill Marco van Basten was a beautifully skilled footballer, I mean he had such a sublime touch, he could score beautiful goals, he was very graceful for a center forward. He had all the aspects you would need for a kind of perfect number nine." Zola: "Both of them were very impressive in defensive minded Italy and had an impact on Italian football. Of course when it is about skills Van Basten was really outstanding, he didn't look like a center forward of those years. Normally the striker were big and powerful. He was completely the opposite. So gracious in movements, touch and control." Goals (2 vs 2): Lineker: "They were both prolific. Excellent players. Van Basten probably scored more exquisite goals. Jurgen you know was an athlete. He was one of those try hard players who could bring in everything he had in his game. Great mental strength, great performer in some big matches as well and he scored sometimes spectacular goals too." Matthaus: "With his extrovert mentality and energy he really gave so much to the team. This helped him to score. He scored 16 goals [15 goals...] in 1996 when we won the UEFA Cup with Bayern Munich, he scored for Tottenham and was once topscorer in Germany. Sure, when you look for elegance and class it is Van Basten but we speak now about the number of goals and how many goals in a career. I remember his miraculous goal against Russia in 1988, in the semi final he kicked us out. I have bad memories about Marco van Basten! Jurgen with his goals helped me to the 1990 title, scored a big goal against Holland – Marco won a penalty against us there. Jurgen scored very important goals on the way to the World Cup. If you came with an attack from the wing he was often in the right place to score." Zola: "Unfortunately his career ended early. Maybe he could have done better for the national team, lot of potential, but like many times the Dutch teams had so much potential and then in big competitions they didn't fulfill expectations." Matthaus (after asked to included "what it meant for you personally"): "I think Jurgen for the goals. He was a fantastic player. Maybe not so nice goals like Van Basten, the technical style, but I give my vote for Jurgen." Zola: "No. I go for Marco. I think the numbers are in his favor." Lineker: "Yeah, Van Basten. Just two terrific goalscorers. Very different footballers, but Van Basten was a master striker." Jenas: "I go with Jurgen on this particular category yeah." Set Pieces (4 vs 0) - this includes penalties and general involvement: Matthaus: "Jurgen never took free kicks because Bayern and the national side had others in the national side to do this [...]. Marco was sometimes a secondary option I remember and he had the skill, but that means no Marco on the receiving end!" Zola: "Marco was considered the best in set piece situations at the time, I remember that. He was said to be the coolest of all and pick the right option. But in receiving free kicks by others they were both excellent." Lineker: "This is the one time Germany doesn't win with penalties." Matthaus: "I can only agree with the other minds here." Team players (3 vs 1) Lineker: “I think I can remember my own assists... We've all got different roles in teams. People always say strikers only think about one thing and obviously that was your prime purpose in the side, if you are scoring goals it takes pressure of you and the side. But at the same time, we are all team players. You can't get to the top without being a team player at all, but some are more naturally that way than others.” Matthaus: “Jurgen on the field was really a team player. He was working hard for the defense too, I also know other number nines like Gary maybe who like to be a bit more on the offense but Jurgen was coming back and helped the team, was pushing the team to give more. Especially in 96 when he won the European Championship in England [did he actually play well there? PvH]. He was the energetic leader, he was the captain of the team and you feel he is full with energy and he gives it for the team.” Zola: “Well I think football you enjoy it because of the spectacular, the class you can see from the players, so in these terms Van Basten obviously had more. But I'm impressed with both here, because I played against both of them and Jurgen was always a pesk, because he was always running around, you could feel the energy. As a team mate this is an important thing, if you see your striker is working so hard, then you are encouraged to do the same and more.” Lineker: “I think perhaps because of his exuberance and because of his extraordinary energy, his never say die attitude that was so obvious on the pitch compared to the more laid back approach of Van Basten. Perhaps Jurgen would be the more obvious team player.” Matthaus: “He really motivated the team, I can't stress that enough. He was not merely the nominal captain, a badge of honor within system of cogs. He was the striker the number nine! Leading and going ahead from up front. That was some quality of him and for this I vote for Jurgen.” Zola: “Jurgen has my respect with his energy and participation. Marco had his class and combination play so from my player perspective I go for him.” Big moments (4 vs 0) Matthaus: “Jurgen his World Cup win certainly does not trump anything, absolutely not. Marco had a great career for his different clubs, for the national team he won their only title with phenomenal performances against strong opponents. All the titles that he won and finals he played, especially in Italy, with this strong Serie A, at that moment the best league in the world. I think this is.. For me it is more than the World Cup. I thought before the World Cup is the biggest title you can win as a player, Jurgen won this World Cup 1990 with me, we won titles together in Italy too, but I think Marco had more big moments than Jurgen.” Jenas: “I also think his impact in those particular games. Yes he played a number of big finals, his club career was phenomenal. You can't take your mind of that goal for Holland against Russia. There are certain goals in football history that live on forever, and we are talking about big moments, and that been their only major trophy as a country, and for him to do that... that is as big as it gets I suppose.” Zola: “Absolutely. There are certain things that stand in your mind all the time. As a small kid you step on the pitch and you say “I score a goal like Van Basten did”. So it is one of those things only a few players can do and certainly he's one of them.” Lineker: “He also scored a rare hat-trick against England. At his best he was unbelievable. He destroyed us on his own. Yeah, a big time player, big moments, great, great star.” Matthaus: “Jurgen won only the European Championship and World Cup. Yes I say 'only' because I miss a number of titles and influence in it with the club.” Zola: “Look the last time I played against him, Marco scored 4 goals against me, so I should say Klinsmann but because I'm crazy I say Van Basten.” Lineker: “For me, big moments, almost none bigger than that euro final.” Legacy (4 vs 0) Lineker: “Of course it is always effected by events that curtail your career. That goes without saying. But I think amongst professional players, and certainly amongst the great strikers, there is a real respect for Marco van Basten as one of the great quintessential center forwards that we have seen. He had it all.” Zola: “His impact was all the greater because he collected it all in a shorter space of time. I think the fact he had to leave early adds respect to him. There is an aura when you speak about him in Italy, and not only in Milan, he's certainly one of the most universally respected players in Italy.” Matthaus: “Jurgen has a big name in Germany, sure. He won the World Cup, the euros. He was manager of the 2006 team, which was a good performance. Sure he had a great standing in Germany about his performance with Bayern Munich, with Stuttgart.” Jenas: “Van Basten in my eyes is a legend. You watched him and you dreamt about being that type of player. I'm not sure Klinsmann was that. He's a type of player that can be created again whereas Marco has got that special ingredient to have that legend status.” Matthaus: “Jurgen had a good presentation, later on the bench too but legend... I think a legend is more Van Basten. When there is a young kid I'd like him to be more Van Basten than Klinsmann. Zola: “Yeah I think in the same way. If you talk about legend I'd go the same way. If you talk about the legends of football Van Basten is up there.” Lineker: “Massive amount of respect for Jurgen but Marco was special. Feel free to ask or comment.
I made a table based in the peak of both players Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo and then I pointed out season where imo each one was better. Curious thing is that Cristiano Ronaldo best rated season at R.M. was the first one. Is it possible that he was already in the middle of his peak when he arrived at Real? Could Cristiano of the last three seasons of Manchester United have had even more impact than Real Madrid's Ronaldo of his supposed (2009-2014) peak or he really reached his peak in La Liga?
Yeah, maybe I see it as at least a closer call between Henry and Bergkamp, although length of outright peak period (in the Premier League) favours Henry too to be fair. I don't know what he would conclude if thinking in terms of who might be better to play alongside (as the attacking full-back he used to be) rather than directly against as a defender. If he thought about it I suspect he'd conclude Nigel Clough did more for his game personally than Stan Collymore did (and attribute wise, including physically then Bergkamp to Clough is actually a bigger gap I suppose than Henry to peak Collymore), although he was older and would get less involved with overlaps etc or runs into the penalty area in the time he played alongside Collymore and I am pretty sure he was on record as saying Collymore was the best Forest player he played alongside (including England etc I think he might have indicated Gascoigne). I interpreted his comments to mean that in theory a midfield player (central) or defender could be the best, but that in this instance (although he mentioned Vieira, while Bellamy mentioned Schmeichel) it wouldn't be correct to pick one in the end, or maybe he was just implying a fans vote would never go that way regarding the Premier League. I suppose the Aguero call becomes slightly more understandable (or having him somewhere close) the more longevity is considered, and then CR7 drops further away from being a main contender (as would a Klinsmann for example, with less than two full seasons and initially leaving after one....whereas if leaning heavily to peak, even if over a good run of games rather than a handful, then I guess I'd put Klinsmann in a second XI alongside or in front of Cantona, leaving Shearer perhaps alongside or ahead of Zola in team 3!). So again in regards to Shearer himself the longevity factor helps put him in the frame when best PL player votes are made I think, although I'd say his outright/near peak longevity is actually not as good as Henry's.
Forgot to add: although ultimately my vote would go to Henry too, it should be acknowledged I think that a straight stats (goals/assists comparison) between him and Bergkamp can't be used to provide an 'obvious' answer necessarily. It is not simply that Henry was about as good at assisting (statistically) and better at scoring, as Bergkamp's game was also very much about aiding the cohesion of the team, pre-assists etc etc. Bellamy did suggest Henry was the player he was, partly/largely due to Bergkamp's help and influence of course (as well as Wenger's it goes without saying),
Sky interviewed Thiery Henry ... about the best players he'd ever played with .., He started by excluding Zidane , Messi and Ronaldinho by claiming they're freaks of nature .. so Dennis Bergkamp was the best after those three
I am finally starting to have a good look at these profiles of their chosen 100 players individually, using a translation of the pages (copying and pasting the link to the page into Google and selecting 'translate this page'): https://www.francefootball.fr/news/...marque-l-histoire-de-la-coupe-du-monde/889442 So yes, it's early days in terms of my reading the pages, but I've randomly gone to the top and bottom sections already, and I do think they are laying out the 'story' nicely for the players (for each World Cup they participated in - to some extent at least) and also I do appreciate the section that quotes from the archive - for example recounting the reasons Trappatoni left Baggio at home in 2002 (citing him having only returned for the last 3 games of the Serie A season), under pressure from fans to pick him, or the 1998 piece on Zico which includes Socrates calling him the 'King' and also a sentence that says he played as a conductor driven by an overwhelming desire to make the show on the Spanish lawns (in 1982), but that he was finally a victim of 'too much collective'. You might have a clearer idea of the exact meaning of that, understanding better the original French text I think Puck, but could it mean that FF are saying that Brazil and Zico played in their view too much of a team game, trying to 'walk the ball into the net'? I am not sure (either of the meaning, or whether that would be true)...
The Ademir one is particularly interesting to look at for the archive section I suppose, with the quote from an article shortly after the Sweden game in which he scored 4 goals, referring to his zigzagging. EDIT - No, sorry, it is from after the group stage games only, so before that Sweden game. Surely quite a good 'prediction' of what was to come then, but of course he already scored 3 times in the group too and was already displaying his skills and as pointed out had starred as a Brazil NT player in 1949 too. The Zidane one in contrast maybe seems a bit short on description of playing attributes, but then it is written for the modern audience which knows full well how he played I suppose, so instead focuses on the quotes of Deschamps I think (maybe I lose something in translation again, but he seems to refer to his influence and importance).
The archive section is particularly good I think when it has a recounting of a goal or moment by the player in question. Gordon Banks remembering his famous save from Pele, detail by detail in terms of thoughts and actions, or Valdano his goal in the 1986 Final. Also when there is a nice and vivid description of a players role in a goal, like Xavi's in the Villa goal in the 2010 QF. Villa's goal against Chile also being described from the archives in that section in his own profile.
🔥 Leo #Messi🔥🐐 Record 5th #GoldenShoe🏆👟 2009/10 👉⚽ 34 goals 🏆👟 2011/12 👉⚽ 50 goals 🏆👟 2012/13 👉⚽ 46 goals 🏆👟 2016/17 👉⚽ 37 goals 🏆👟 2017/18 👉⚽ 34 goals pic.twitter.com/3zL8fsGSgx— FC Barcelona (@FCBarcelona) December 18, 2018