Best football players of all time

PDG1978 · Nov 21, 2017

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

@PDG1978

I don't think this is a good fit or suggestion for the 'best games' thread but this was another good game by Bobby Moore (and Alan Ball too)

http://footballia.net/matches/northern-ireland-england-british-home-championship

George Best was noteworthy in the first half, maybe better than anyone, but had some poor controls in the 2nd and wasn't as good. Charlton was, as the commentator said/predicted before the match, quite a bit below his best and did very little with some bad decisions and bad touches too.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the review.

In return, having checked France vs Yugoslavia for Platini and possibly Tigana from 1985, I can say that it's not overall a candidate for that thread for either (generally speaking closer for Tigana as it's a good one to witness him technically/physically in top shape and both passing and recovering balls well plus using some skills/dribbling and helping create some danger at times, but in some ways I'd be torn between indeed those two for MOTM, just like vs Portugal in Euro 84 I think, due to Platini's decisiveness and the pure quality in those moments which possibly elevates it above Charlton vs Portugal from 1966).

It's actually a good one for Luis Fernandez too, as the commentary team (including Michel Hidalgo) note I can tell a couple of times during the match. And overall for the Magic Square as Giresse also has some quality moments, even if sporadic like for Platini, and occasionally giving the ball away a little cheaply which Tigana also does just once or twice too many times to really put it as a 9/10 type display or a career best type display for him I think.

PuckVanHeel · Dec 18, 2017

PDG1978 said: ↑

Thanks for the review.

In return, having checked France vs Yugoslavia for Platini and possibly Tigana from 1985, I can say that it's not overall a candidate for that thread for either (generally speaking closer for Tigana as it's a good one to witness him technically/physically in top shape and both passing and recovering balls well plus using some skills/dribbling and helping create some danger at times, but in some ways I'd be torn between indeed those two for MOTM, just like vs Portugal in Euro 84 I think, due to Platini's decisiveness and the pure quality in those moments which possibly elevates it above Charlton vs Portugal from 1966).

It's actually a good one for Luis Fernandez too, as the commentary team (including Michel Hidalgo) note I can tell a couple of times during the match. And overall for the Magic Square as Giresse also has some quality moments, even if sporadic like for Platini, and occasionally giving the ball away a little cheaply which Tigana also does just once or twice too many times to really put it as a 9/10 type display or a career best type display for him I think.
Click to expand...

Don't know where to put it but saw this passing by (someone mentioning it):

In the 1980 NASL preview (on channel ABC) Johan is implicitly pointing out that baseball is a relatively low scoring game too.

Thought it was interesting enough (maybe) to share and not quite like the usual soft soaping talk by stars.

TitoTata · Dec 18, 2017

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

@PDG1978

I don't think this is a good fit or suggestion for the 'best games' thread but this was another good game by Bobby Moore (and Alan Ball too)

http://footballia.net/matches/northern-ireland-england-british-home-championship

George Best was noteworthy in the first half, maybe better than anyone, but had some poor controls in the 2nd and wasn't as good. Charlton was, as the commentator said/predicted before the match, quite a bit below his best and did very little with some bad decisions and bad touches too.
Click to expand...

Until last year when he retired I used to work with a bloke who was in the ManU squad at the same time as Besty .

Unfortunately he was a winger and United has Best on one wing and Willie Morgan on the other .....

I think he managed to get only a handful of games in the few years he was there ..

TitoTata · Dec 19, 2017

Anyone read Tony Adams bio and can add anything to this story ??

" There was also the famous tale (which was spelled out in Tony Adams' biography) of how Beckham was left humiliated by his childhood hero - the then England coach Glenn Hoddle - during a training ground, free-kick exercise. A frustrated Hoddle, eventually concluded that Beckham 'lacked the appropriate skill' to perform such technical move, even though the long-retired England coach was able to perfect the volleyed free-kick with ease himself! "

PuckVanHeel · Apr 13, 2018

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

Accidentally I saw an interesting article by the Italian journalist Mario Sconcerti. It was written when he retired in 2006 and the new stadium was inaugurated. I scanned it (the Italian version, not the translated Dutch version which strangely left out two sentences) and then put it through this very useful tool here.

https://www.onlineocr.net/

It is really very nice I thought.

Eventually he would have made it

For Dennis Bergkamp we do not have much memories in Italy. What jumped out is that he never wanted to fly. We still like to see him play him if this happens, but it's like he's never been at Inter. The team where Bergkamp played in was the last Inter under President Pellegrini. A period from the history of the club, on which isn't a look back with much affection, even though it generated more success than the current Inter.

Pellegrini was a bookkeeper, he had a catering company and a cleaning company. No interesting past and no charm. When Massimo Moratti appeared on the scene, it seemed like future and past mergers. Hastily they cleaned the ship in one blow. Players changed hands. Bergkamp included. In addition, it suited well that Arsenal valued him highly and offered a huge amount for him. So it became a goodbye without disturbance.

Since then Bergkamp has kicked it far and has been influential, he has still realized many promises that were inside him while at Milan, but he has never succeeded in generating an emotion. We Italians often see the professional attitude of Dutch people standing for a reserved attitude and low involvement in teams and - in football - clubs. Bergkamp was distant and shy, never seemed to be at ease. He was polite, well behaved, faithful and kind, but he never raised his voice and never needed more space for himself, so he was on the outside not a leader. No Maradona.

And in Italy it was the glow of Maradona, the era of Naples, of great emotions, the heart on the tongue, football that is always passionate and dramatic. Without drama and theatrics no football. Bergkamp had nothing to do with that kind of football. He played the game as very few could do, undeniable he was a big player for the big moments and against the big teams, but he did too little. He was for the viewer not decisive and he did not bring you into captivity.

Here we divide Dutch football players into two categories. They are very good, so superstars; or they are good but not suitable for Italian football. When Bergkamp came, we were used to Gullit, Van Basten and Rijkaard of Milan. These were the exceptions. In general, the Dutch have had little impact. Good players, but lightweights that went down against the forceful Italian markers. We have never been able to fully understand how a country with so few inhabitants has been able to modernize football. That was a role that was actually written for us. But too eagerly we liked to believe that the Cruijff lightning was an un-explainable serendipity. Then we had to accept that there was his second act in Gullit-Van Basten, but after those there was the Bergkamp generation, which was really too much to process.

The Dutchman is pale and blond, he seems to be unable to share our kind of love for the football. He is neat and professional, if he suffers he does it in silence. He is nice to the press and the supporters and he does not play any underhand games. For us, it means that he doesn't seem to care for anything. Bergkamp was even shy, an elusively complex personality, even to the outside world, with clear fears in social traffic. Complex personalities and images are always difficult to communicate. Can such somebody be a crack?

You must also see it from the Inter-audience. These are born victims, discouraged by years and years of own defeat and Milan triumphs. They are already convinced that their own purchases will disappoint. It can not be true that somebody is as good as is claimed. There must be fraud in the game. The departure of Bergkamp was not standing on itself. In recent years, many more big names left Inter after comparable circumstances: Roberto Carlos, Seedorf, Pirlo, Ronaldo, Crespo, Baggio and many others.

I think Bergkamp would have liked to adapt to Italy at some point. Because in essence his type of game is very Italian. He is a number 10, an attacker who comes from outside the penalty area or is a midfielder playing in the center of a diamond. A position designed in Italy to associate the defensive force majeure with the select group involved in the attack. He would have received kicks, but also learned to get up again. He would have won the personality he gained later. If he had become that driven competitor. Not the least, a respectable amount of his collection has been stamped against vintage Italian teams.

In our opinion, he has always been more like artistry for the connoisseur than a man of blockbuster spectacle. But again, he was a big player. Many football players like Bergkamp eventually felt at home in our football. Over the years, he would also become more of a leader, he would have put more stamp on the team and the club. President Moratti would have lent him a willful ear. Bergkamp is the type of player that the president likes. Moratti, a devoted and exceptionally rich man, is also more stylistic than a killer himself.

But unfortunately that's not how it went. Ultimately, it did not become a problem for Bergkamp and also not for Inter. But everyone in these contours has had the feeling of a missed opportunity, of a good story that was told at the wrong time. The Inter of Pellegrini was too old, that of Moratti had to be born. Everything had to be different, everything had to go away, so great was the desire to start again, an maybe at hindsight it has been better that way. His trophy cabinet filled beyond other sculptors of his generation, and what remains is a memorable artist and interpreter of Johan's ideas.

----------

I hope I do not annoy you but I found this a nice and nicely written piece. @PDG1978 With the right balance and, ultimately, also appreciation of course despite reserved criticism and counter-criticism. As said above, this was written in 2006, when the stadium opened and at his farewell game.

Maybe also nice for others. It is true one can make an all-time XI with players who left Inter through the backdoor, LOL.
Click to expand...

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

Recap (non-penalty goals + assists per 90 minutes):

1990 - 2000

Cantona 0.73
Les Ferdinand 0.68
Shearer 0.63

Others:
Klinsmann 0.79
Vialli 0.67
Asprilla 0.65
Yeboah 0.62

1995 - 2005

Bergkamp 0.72
Hasselbaink 0.71
Owen 0.65

Others:
Solskjaer 0.83
Wiltord 0.62
Suker 0.63
Weah 0.53

2000 - 2010

Thierry Henry 0.95
Drogba 0.79
Van Nistelrooij 0.70

Others:
Reyes 0.74
Gudjohnsen 0.59
Shevchenko 0.53

2005 – 2015

Van Persie 0.82
Rooney 0.70
Torres 0.69
Tevez 0.66
Berbatov 0.64

Others:
Cristiano Ronaldo 0.66
Van der Vaart 0.66
Robben 0.64
Nani 0.64

2010 – 2020

Aguero 0.90
Sturridge 0.78
Kane 0.76
Alexis Sanchez 0.76

Others:
Luis Suarez 0.87
Javier Hernandez 0.82
Diego Costa 0.80
Dzeko 0.77
De Bruyne 0.72
Click to expand...

I noticed in the kicker ratings that Bergkamp got a 1.0 for the 2002 Leverkusen match (single best rated player on the field) and a 2.0 for the 2002 Dortmund match (single best rated player on the field again, Dortmund were champions). Leverkusen was runners-up in every competition that season and Dortmund champions.

This was the final trigger to look at how he was seen in the 2002 - 2006 veteran years. I'll try to not double up things, that would be rather boring and superfluous.

Let's first start with two critical pieces. The first covers the main criticism, the second is chosen because it is probably the very most critical out there (by Simon Kuper). In the sense of founded criticism, not tabloid criticism.

The Independent, 2002/03/05

Football: Bergkamp makes heart soar and sink

THERE MUST be some legitimate doubt about Dennis Bergkamp's precise intention when he performed his astonishing pirouette before scoring another goal of the ages against Newcastle on Saturday night. In these circumstances, though, no one can deny Bergkamp's capacity to both conceive and execute deeds beyond the dreams of the rest of the football population.
But if Bergkamp remains a player of sublime ability, he is still capable of provoking extremes of frustration. The Arsenal manager, Arsene Wenger, has no doubt felt more of it than most. How else can we explain the frequency with which he plays the valuable but hardly comparable Kanu and Sylvain Wiltord before calling in the Dutchman?
The strange story of Bergkamp was possibly best captured in an exchange between a Dutch journalist and Johan Neeskens before the 1998 World Cup collision of Brazil and the Netherlands. Neeskens, who brought such formidable commitment to the Dutch team before joining the coaching staff, was asked about the prospects. "It depends on whether Bergkamp plays," Neeskens said.
"Oh God, is he injured?" asked the journalist, who was no doubt having a vivid recall of the stunning goal Bergkamp produced to beat Argentina in the previous round. "No," Neeskens replied, "but that doesn't answer the question of whether he will play. Sometimes he is on the team, but he really isn't there. Some days he is everything, another he is nothing. It will always be the same with Bergkamp."
Bergkamp was on the field, but he didn't play against Brazil, and the Dutch lost. Bergkamp can near stop your heart, which makes it so sad that so often he fails to activate his own.
Click to expand...

Simon Kuper in The Times, 2003/05/12
[...]
Later that night, in the Highbury car park, Bergkamp recalled an old Dutch newspaper article. Headlined "Does Dennis Bergkamp like girls?", it had identified him as the only Ajax player without a girlfriend. This still bugged him. Bergkamp had never been at ease at Ajax.
The club's "pearls-and-poodles set" alienated the shy child from the Catholic family. Bergkamp was often in Ajax's reserve and youth teams, was sometimes played at right back, and was always on the verge of being kicked out. Summoned to the first team aged 17, Bergkamp's response was: "I don't want to."
What scared him was that he did not know anybody in the first team.
[...]
English football culture turned out to consist of 14-pint-sessions, tabloids that wrote off the "Flying Dutchman" after he failed to score instantly and a Highbury crowd forever urging John Jensen, the non-scoring Danish midfield player, to "Shoot!" The rest is history: Jensen's banishment, Arsenal's metamorphosis and the renditions of "Walking in a Bergkamp Wonderland". Bergkamp called Arsenal his
"natural home". Off the pitch, he was just as happy. He turned out to be a southern Englishman with a Dutch passport. Bergkamp is a private person who tends his own garden. He is Suburban Man. Hertfordshire is his spiritual home. He has a dry understated "English" wit (footballers think his jokes are nearly as funny as setting somebody's underpants on fire. Holland internationals still fondly recall a lunchtime double-act between Bergkamp and Clarence Seedorf, discussing their plans to install chapels at home).

Bergkamp also liked the way the English experience football: with passion, but never really as a matter of life and death. Told about the replica shirts bearing his number and the name "God", the pious Christian remarked: "Luckily in England there's a bit of irony behind it. In Italy they really believe it."
The press suited him too. The tabloids proceed on the good-boy-bad-boy theory of human nature. After discovering how boring Bergkamp's private life was - he is married with three children - they ignored him. In addition, having little interest in football itself, they did not judge players by the match, as the Italians had done. Once Bergkamp had revealed his quality, nobody demanded consistency. The odd flash was enough. And whereas the Italians had judged him primarily on goals, the British realised he was a more exotic animal.

In fact, the Premiership allowed Bergkamp to effect a transformation: from nippy goalscoring "shadow striker" into man of moments. Decades after this the stinkers are forgotten, people will still remember certain of those moments: the instant flick and full-circle spin around Nikos Dabizas, of Newcastle United; the instant flick and half-volley with the outside of the foot that took Holland past Argentina in the last minute of a World Cup quarter-final; or the loblet that put Fredrik Ljungberg in front of the Juventus goal. "His moments are as great as anybody's who has ever lived," David Winner, Arsenal fan and author of Brilliant Orange, said.

Winner thinks Bergkamp has an "aura". Ludicrous as this is, he may be right. Bergkamp's pale face, sparse hair and splinter-like build contribute to an impression of ethereal fragility. "It's almost mathematical," Winner says. "It's not about taking your shirt off or falling to your knees or making the sign of the cross or belting it in from 30 yards like Roberto Carlos, or all the normal signs of greatness. It's something interior. He has this vision. And when he scores one of his goals or does one of his passes, you realise he's seen something that nobody else in the ground could have seen."

To his compatriots, Bergkamp epitomises Dutch football. Whereas Seedorf and Ruud Gullit were jeered in the Amsterdam ArenA, Bergkamp was applauded there in February after committing two bad tackles on Ajax players.

Like Bergkamp himself, the Dutch cannot understand why Arsene Wenger ever drops him. When Bergkamp is pulled out with 20 minutes left, it seems an indignity, like keeping a Vermeer in the cellar. Not that Bergkamp is a great player - just a beautiful one. Henk Spaan, who compiled an all-time "Top 100" of Dutch players, ranked him only twelfth. Bergkamp never won the biggest international prizes, Spaan explains. "He was seldom Arsenal's most important player. At times, even Ray Parlour was more important. You would never want Bergkamp playing for your life."

To achieve his great moments he appears to enter a trance, shutting out the match. "People really have no idea what goes into the making of those goals like that," he told Johan. "My gift is not subject to decay," Bergkamp once said. In fact, he probably has one last season to add some moments to our memories of fifty years from now.
Click to expand...

This covers the main criticism well I guess. Now the rest.

The Times, 2002/03/01

Bergkamp proves he can still give Dutch masterclass

Arsenal striker remains among world's finest

AS Dennis Bergkamp turned and chipped home Arsenal's fourth goal against Bayer Leverkusen at Highbury on Wednesday evening, thesauruses were consulted across the country, searching for another word for sublime. As he approaches his 33rd birthday, the Dutchman may be losing some of his pace and struggles to shake off injuries, yet his ability is undiminished: he remains the consummate technician.
While Bergkamp is not the type of striker who scores enormous amounts of goals, he does score memorable ones. And his passing and vision still remain majestic: the ball skills that preceded his flick for Fredrik Ljungberg to run on to and score against Juventus in a Champions League match last December were simply outstanding, while a stunning cross-field pass that found Ashley Cole, who headed home against Middlesbrough in their FA Carling Premiership match at Highbury, was inch-perfect.
[...]
The stage is set for a final flourish from one of the most skilful players in the world.
Click to expand...

The Guardian, 2002/09/18

Bergkamp flying in a new role: The Dutchman drops back to pull the strings
for Arsenal

[...]

In the past few seasons Bergkamp, stripped of the blinding pace that made him one of the world's most dangerous forwards, looked like becoming a peripheral figure at Highbury. But since he accepted a subordinate role behind Thierry Henry and Sylvain Wiltord, he has become just as vital not only as a provider of goals but as a man whose vision and skill can link the play.
Bergkamp has always insisted that he needs to play from the start, rather than as a late substitute expected to have a rabbit or two up his sleeve. And the comfort of knowing that he is now one of the first-choice strikers is reflected in his play so far this season.
Last night [against Borussia Dortmund], as Arsenal struggled to find a way through opponents better organised than those they regularly put to the sword on domestic weekends, it was always Bergkamp's subtlety that threatened to fashion a decisive opening.
His quick feet and brain produced a lay-off to Henry which would normally have resulted in a goal. And more magical skills led to a freekick on the edge of the box that David Beckham would have died for.
Then, in the 62nd minute, the ball arrived at his feet on the edge of the box after a typical blurring exchange of Arsenal passes. And though his right- foot shot took a deflection, it only prevented the ball nestling more perfectly in the corner where Bergkamp intended it.
It was a thoroughly deserved goal for a player who, far from disappearing into the Highbury shadows, is maturing into an old master who could lead them towards European success.
In the days when Arsenal struggled to find enough goals even in domestic matches, Henry famously said that the team needed a fox in the box. But Bergkamp has become the wily old fox, who created another wonderful chance for Freddie Ljungberg 18 minutes from time with a beautifully timed pass.
Click to expand...

The Times, 2002/09/27

Bergkamp's extra quality gives Arsenal take-off

AS THE Arsenal team coach sped away from the Philips Stadion for the airport and the flight home, Dennis Bergkamp idled a while. He stopped for interviews, chatted with friends and signed autographs for the waiting youngsters. There was no rush. He would travel back to England, eventually, by road and rail.
Bergkamp's route would be circuitous -he cannot conquer his fear of flying but it would give him more time to contemplate one of the most complete away performances that the Champions League can have witnessed. PSV Eindhoven 0 Arsenal 4: even the aristocrats of Real Madrid will have raised an eyebrow.
Many will wonder how Arsenal could have won only four of their previous 19 away matches in the competition. PSV had not lost at home in a year and had started the Dutch league with a perfect five-out-of-five win record. Defeat was unimaginable.
Yet once Gilberto had set the ball rolling after 20.07 seconds, the fastest goal in Champions League history, Arsenal engaged second gear, cruised into third, cantered into fourth and slammed into fifth near the end without even needing to. The clutch may have slipped a couple of times, with Mateja Kezman missing chances for PSV with the score at 1-0, but the engine mostly purred. It was spectacular stuff.
Bergkamp, 33, made his first away start in Europe for more than two years and that it coincided with Arsenal's resurgence on their travels cannot be ignored. Others shone more brightly -the controlled aggression of Patrick Vieira, the finishing of Thierry Henry -but the Dutchman is still the creator supreme.
"Dennis is unbelievable," Henry, scorer of the last two goals, said. "He's the person who can link between the midfield and me. With Dennis, I know that I can bend my run, I can do whatever and he will try to find me. It's obviously better to go away with him than without."
Click to expand...

In the archive more superlative reviews for his games against Ajax in the 2nd group stage and AS Roma (also 2nd group stage), but that would be tedious.

The Guardian, 2003/01/14

Dennis Bergkamp has been with Arsenal for eight years, gradually gathering around him the air of a football mystic. Certainly he is assumed to be on a higher plane and there is a clairvoyance to his passing. With his 34th birthday in May, he also qualifies for the respect accorded to veterans.
[...]
Accepting that he cannot be the type of striker who prods home a loose ball in the glaur of the six-yard box, Bergkamp once observed that he would never be a goalmouth scrambler if that somehow compromised his talent. "I don't want to end up damaging our game," he said.

His own style is so seductive that the public has been wooed into accepting that idiosyncratic outlook. It must be tolerable to the Arsenal manager. "We will sit down with him in March or April," Wenger said, preparing to offer a new deal to a man who is out of contract in the summer. "Playing up front you have to be injury free and, if he can go through the rest of this year without any problems, then I think he would be ready for another season."
Wenger is being less charitable than he sounds, for Arsenal, in truth, have sore need of Bergkamp's signature on another contract. As Thierry Henry has evolved, the Dutchman has found the perfect partner in attack. The fast, strong, astute attacker virtually incites Bergkamp to deliver his best passes. With these two in tandem, Arsenal can be both predictable and unstoppable.
[...]
Bergkamp is a cerebral talent and the attrition of a long career in an abrasive profession has led to periods in which he seems to withdraw and regroup. It was one of those fallow spells that annoyed Tony Adams and made him ask the forward if he should not have more medals to show for all his gifts. Soon after, Arsenal, in 1998, had the first Double of Wenger's tenure. Three years later Bergkamp ended a season with only five goals from 35 appearances. Then you could have imagined a dignified dwindling until he was nowhere to be seen in the line-up. We misread the aloofness of Bergkamp as indifference. "Dennis's Iceman look also conceals a passion for the game," Adams wrote of the conclusion he eventually reached.
Bergkamp is a stylist in a sport that, with its pace, tries to leave such people behind. He might have gestured dismissively as it headed off into the distance but the attacker has instead showed that his approach still works.
It may have taken four years longer but he, like Henry, has 100 goals for Arsenal and scoring is an aspect, rather than the essence, of his contribution. Elegance marks him as a throwback but Bergkamp will be crucial to the immediate future of Arsenal.
Click to expand...

2003/11/23

Bergkamp had been expected to hang up his boots in May after eight glorious Highbury campaigns, the victim of the ageing process as much as any Arsene Wenger transfer policy.
Yet the manner in which he glided clear of the Birmingham defence, stretching away from all pursuers in a 50-yard dash before the most exquisite of finishes to effectively seal the win that ensured the longest unbeaten start in Premiership history, suggests Bergkamp is far from finished at 34.
Click to expand...

To be continued with 2004 - 2006 (including one interesting 2005 (statistical) analysis by the DailyT).

PuckVanHeel · Apr 13, 2018

Here the 2004 - 2006 years, especially the 2005 Daily Telegraph analysis is interesting

Daily Telegraph, 2004/02/23

Bergkamp the `Ice Man' cometh again

OCCASIONALLY, just to prove they are human, even the best get it wrong. Last summer, in the wake of
Arsenal's heartbreaking collapse during the championship run-in, Arsene Wenger sat down to work out his options. Who would stay and who would go as part of his plan to wrestle back the initiative.
Dennis Bergkamp - now there was a conundrum. All the evidence pointed to an irreversible decline. The figures couldn't lie. Wenger noticed a dip in results in speed, power and endurance tests in which the demanding Frenchman places so much store.
Then there was the data spilling relentlessly from ProZone, a favourite toy of coaches that assiduously records during the course of each game the precise movement and mileage of every individual.
There it was in plain black and white. The Dutch master was no longer able to threaten the space behind defences. He wasn't getting about the pitch like he used to. The bits that were happening were happening too deep. Wenger didn't need a computer to tell him that.
He could see it for himself. Bergkamp's legs had effectively `gone'. They were helpless to influence the modern-day game, one that, in Wenger's opinion, called for powerful athletes in their absolute prime.
Herein lay the problem, for Wenger was short of thoroughbred strikers. Despite all the evidence, could he really afford to let go of an out-of-contract player who would go down in history as one of the most supremely gifted of this or any other generation? The answer was no, so Bergkamp was offered another year, albeit on vastly reduced terms.
Fast forward to the present day, seven months into a campaign that still waits for Arsenal's first Premiership defeat. Bergkamp's form on the whole has proved a revelation, a reminder, in fact, of the wonder years of the late Nineties when no one could touch this mercurial marvel.

The touch, the imagination, the amazing speed of thought - it is all back on show, provided a platform by a crucial resurgence of energy. He may have lasted only two games so far without being substituted but Bergkamp, in blasts, is doing the business again at the age of 34. The first 45 minutes at Stamford Bridge on Saturday threw up another example as the visiting No 10 made an indelible mark. The pace was frenetic, the desire intense, yet Bergkamp somehow found enough space to marvellously manipulate possession.
Drifting over to the right, a diagonal 40-yard sweep bypassed Chelsea's entire defence, Thierry Henry's slightly miscued volley letting the home side off the hook.
Not so with the next pass, though, after Patrick Vieira robbed Claude Makelele. With a couple of yards to play with, and Vieira galloping into space, Bergkamp's right-footed flick was an absolute beauty. Perfectly weighted, delivered with a bit of helpful spin, it was duly rammed past an exposed Neil Sullivan.
For the remainder of the half, the `Ice Man' was irrepressible, his bewitching feet working overtime to frustrate a host of snapping blue shirts.
In many ways, Bergkamp's unexpected success this season flies in the face of his manager's philosophy. The logical Wenger usually acts mercilessly to weed out fading forces. On a purely physical level, the maestro isn't what he was. No one could argue with that. But perhaps spotting the finishing line of his career ahead, he is calling on reserves that few believed were present. "It is surprising," Wenger said. "Sometimes you think a player is dead and he comes back." Bergkamp has come back. And as long as it lasts Arsenal will be grateful.

2004/03/02

Club skipper Vieira said: "Dennis has been unbelievable for Arsenal. If you look at our successes over recent years you could say that everything started with him. If you buy a player like Dennis Bergkamp you are saying that you want to have a team of the very, very highest quality in Europe. He has helped move this club to another level. His presence here has made it easier to sign other great players. He has given the club
great stature."

Bergkamp has now played 254 league games for Arsenal, breaking Peter Schmeichel's record number of appearances for a foreign player for one Premiership club.
[...]
"The fact that Dennis has broken the record tells you two things about him - the first that he is remarkably consistent over a long time, and the second that he is remarkably faithful to this club, " said Wenger.
Click to expand...

The Guardian, 2004/08/24

Age cannot wither the subtle art of a Dutch master

While a breakneck Arsenal overtake rivals in the record books, let's hear it for the slowcoach. Even in his youth Dennis Bergkamp did not specialise in outstripping opponents and now that he is 35 the Dutchman is more suited than ever to being the still point in a side of incorrigible sprinters.

The Dutchman is a particular delight because his has been a spasmodic longevity. A couple of years ago he seemed to be tapering off at Highbury, so his current, majestic form is a windfall for every spectator. Thierry Henry and Jose Antonio Reyes have plenty in reserve for future seasons but Bergkamp must be relished while stocks last.
Pitches will deteriorate, the weather will worsen, opponents will get nastier and Arsenal will grow careworn. This is Bergkamp's hour, when everything about him, including his strength, is taking other teams aback. It was all on show even in the Community Shield, when he plopped ideal passes two or three yards behind the Manchester United defence.

He is not the very greatest footballer his country has produced but he may be the perfect embodiment of the Dutch concept of the game. Bergkamp has that spatial imagination. He is hyper-sensitive when sizing up position, angle and possibility. The very best of his goals are hymns to geometry.
[...]
There is no unequivocal verdict about the exact value of his career. Certain older Dutch players, laden with winners' medals from the European Cup or enshrined as members of the national team that took the 1988 European Championship, tend to think he should have achieved more. They ponder his character, sensing that something is always withheld.

Despite those strictures this supposed wallflower is, by other measures, a robust survivor. He is in his 10th season in England. Inconceivable as it sounds, there was no Arsene Wenger in the Premiership when Bergkamp came to Arsenal. Before that he had already won the Cup Winners' Cup once and the Uefa Cup twice.

He can seem remote, literally so when a fear of flying keeps him apart from European matches, but it must be enthusiasm that has him so embroiled in the Highbury project. Negotations over the annual extension to his contract were testy in 2003, yet he did sign again.
Wenger has reservations about outfield players once they are past 30 but any doubts about Bergkamp are presently being quelled. Until Henry slotted home in stoppage-time, the side had held just a one-goal advantage over Middlesbrough for some 24 minutes of the 5-3 win on Sunday but the ageing Dutchman was not substituted [indeed one of his prominent games].

Bergkamp is bound to get jaded and weary later in the campaign but for the moment even Wenger wants to see as much as possible of him. Although the legs may tie up, there is accelerated thinking to leave adversaries for dead. Catch him now while opponents can't.
Click to expand...

The Independent, 2004/09/19

Bergkamp may be tempted to play extra time

Time waits for no footballer, but even at 35, Dennis Bergkamp is refusing to be left behind. Having returned from the summer break assuming that a 10th season at Highbury would be his last, the non-flying Dutchman is now considering a further extension to a career as distinguished as any foreign player has enjoyed in English football.

At an age when powers are normally on the wane, his prime motivation is an exceptional level of form and fitness which is enabling him to play a full part in Arsenal's outstanding start to the current campaign. Additionally, Arsene Wenger's new crop of youngsters have had such a rejuvenating effect that the all-seeing Prozone performance monitor shows him to be quicker than a year ago.
[...]
The evidence of 38 appearances during that historic campaign - fewer than a quarter of them as a substitute - persuaded the manager to offer Bergkamp a new one-year contract, while disposing of younger rivals Sylvain Wiltord and Nwankwo Kanu. If his current form is maintained, the awful finality of walking out of a dressing room for the last time may be put off again: "I thought this was going to be my final year. I will be 36 at the end of the season and you don't see yourself playing another year after that, but if it keeps going like this I don't want to make a final decision until the end.''
Click to expand...

The Times, 2004/11/15
[...]
It's imbalanced for Arsenal because Dennis Bergkamp creates nearly all of the goals in his pairing -but not [striker] partnership -with Thierry Henry, as he did for Nicolas Anelka. With Bergkamp nowadays lacking the legs to run beyond people, it probably suits Arsenal to adopt the style they do. The system is built around putting Henry in on goal, which probably explains why, without Bergkamp, he struggles for France, and more so now that Zinedine Zidane has retired from international football.
Click to expand...

Daily Telegraph, 2005/01/24

Bergkamp shows his old tricks

QUESTIONS, questions: what do Arsenal have to do to close the 10-point gap on Chelsea? How was it, given the chances created at Highbury yesterday, that the champions did not score five against Newcastle United? When will Craig Bellamy grow up and learn to do what he is told?

All relevant points that could do with addressing. And here's another one. How on earth will Arsenal replace Dennis Bergkamp? That particular question came to mind yesterday after the Dutchman's clinical strike proved enough to claim three essential points and keep up some form of pressure on the runaway leaders.
During the first half especially, Bergkamp laid out his full repertoire; the subtle shimmies and feints, the beautifully weighted first-time passes and the economy of movement. It was all reeled out for everyone to see.
How Highbury lapped it up, how the old place crackled with admiration. Nothing new there. They have been privy to such sights for nearly 10 years. Towards the end of Bergkamp's time, however, there have been moments of doubt, moments when his manager probably suspected that the striker's time was up. On several occasions, with highly frenetic contests passing him by, it looked for all the world as if Bergkamp's
legs had gone.
[...]
Wenger recognised that after this match, whilst accepting that some things simply do not fade with age. "He can't play like he used to when he was 27," said Wenger, "but he is still super classy. He creates a lot and is very intelligent. He has the science of knowing where to stand. That is very important."
[...]
At the end yesterday Bergkamp was first off the pitch, no doubt looking forward to a very long bath. How will Arsenal replace him? The simple answer is they can't.
Click to expand...

The Guardian, 2005/02/16
[...]
Bergkamp is keen to stay for Arsenal's Highbury swansong and the manager said: "There is no question that if he is playing like this at the end of the season he will carry on."
Bergkamp was excellent as Arsenal overwhelmed Crystal Palace 5-1 on Monday and has been in fine form, scoring three goals in four Premiership matches, providing numerous decisive passes and showing his enduring big-game quality at home to Manchester United, even though the team lost.
[...]
"You simply cannot find a player to replace Dennis because players of that quality are non-existent at this moment," he [Wenger] said. Wenger made it clear, though, that he would not give Bergkamp a contract if he felt the player was on the wane.
[...]
"You never see him drinking, you never see him out and, between 30 and 37, that will make a huge difference," Wenger said. "He will be 36 in May. To play up front at that age for a top team, you don't find that. I think he gets rewarded for the quality of his life."
Click to expand...

Daily Telegraph, 2005/03/07

Wenger misses the menace of Dennis: Arsenal needed Bergkamp's European
guile in Munich two weeks ago

If Dennis Bergkamp had not contracted Erica Jong syndrome, his and Arsenal's Champions League ambitions might have really taken off, instead of spending the past seven seasons stuck in a holding pattern, seemingly circling Europe without any purpose. In Arsenal's case, arriving would have been infinitely preferable to years of travelling hopefully.

For once, manager Arsene Wenger can legitimately blame the press. Had a Dutch journalist not sparked a bomb scare on a plane in which Bergkamp was travelling during the 1994 World Cup finals, causing him to unbuckle his seat belt for the final time, he might by now have flown more miles than Prince Andrew and helped Arsenal to deliver the one European trophy to elude him.

Bergkamp, who might be playing his final Champions League game against Bayern Munich on Wednesday, has a remarkable club record of having won half of his 36 matches and tasted defeat only five times, including last season's loss to Chelsea, when he played only the final nine minutes. In 32 games without him, Arsenal have lost 16 and won just 9, making one wonder whether they should have taken up more of his offers to travel by boat and train and aquaplane to some of their more distant ties. If the Milk Tray man can do it, why not the player without whom Arsenal have an obvious soft centre?

Arsenal are unbeaten in the six away games he has played since their Champions League debut in 1998-99, which makes it even stranger that he was not encouraged to travel to Munich a fortnight ago, especially as Thierry Henry was the only other fit striker.
Seemingly ignoring first-class rail travel, Wenger says: "I don't think it is right for him to spend 13 hours each way in a car. But he does offer a lot to the team, particularly in Europe. He is the ideal link between midfield and the strikers and he is a quick decision maker, making inspiring passes and getting his angles right."

(Arsenal won 1-0 at home against Bayern Munich, with him starting and playing 90 minutes)
Click to expand...

The Times, 2005/05/13

Thierry Henry has given a reminder to Arsene Wenger of the importance of Dennis Bergkamp to the side as the Arsenal manager ponders offering the former Holland international a new contract for next year. Bergkamp's vision and precise execution stole the show from Henry, returning from injury, in the 7-0 rout of Everton at Highbury on Wednesday evening.
"He makes things easy," Henry said. "I lost count of the number of times he was involved in goals. He has been amazing since he has been here and if it was down to me I would give him another year -it is the least you can do for a player like that."

Daily Mirror, 2005/05/13

THIERRY HENRY last night pleaded with Arsene Wenger to keep Dennis Bergkamp at Highbury - because they cannot afford to lose his "fantastic talent".
Arsenal top scorer Henry proved his fitness for the FA Cup Final in their 7-0 demolition job of Everton, but he insists Bergkamp proved his own point with a virtuoso display. Henry is convinced Arsenal owe it to Bergkamp to keep him on for another year and jokingly said he will "grab the manager" and convince him to give him a new deal.
Click to expand...

Daily Mirror, 2005/12/02

Retiring Bergkamp: Henry's a bigger legend than me
[...]
"People talk of players from 20 or 30 years ago as being great players, but now people have the privilege of seeing Thierry and he's breaking record after record," said Bergkamp.
"Years from now, people will realise that he is a very special player. I understand coming from my mouth that must mean something because I've played with a lot of good players but Thierry is very special.
"Statistically he's the best and that's for sure. For me he is the most complete player around.
"Even with great players, there is always something you can say, like he didn't do this or he didn't do that. I still have to find a weakness with Thierry.
"If you say he's not a really good header - well the goals he makes with his head are tremendous.
"Maybe he does not put himself in that position but he can do it and there's no weakness there. He's the perfect player." Bergkamp intends to take a complete break from football after this season.
Click to expand...

The Times, 2005/12/15

Bergkamp returns to lift flagging spirits at Highbury - Football

It is shaping up to be a winter of discontent at Highbury, but Arsene Wenger was given some early festive cheer yesterday with the news that Dennis Bergkamp will be fit to face Chelsea on Sunday. With Arsenal 17 points behind the Barclays Premiership leaders, the manager needs all the help he can get.

Bergkamp has missed Arsenal's past two matches with a hamstring injury and his return to fitness could not have come at a better time.
[...]
Bergkamp's experience and leadership qualities were badly missed in the defeats away to Bolton Wanderers and Newcastle United that effectively ended Arsenal's title challenge, with the 36-year-old's return a timely tonic. "The Newcastle game came a bit too soon, but I am in full training and, if I don't get any reaction, then I should be OK for Chelsea," Bergkamp said. "I have been training for a few days now, since the end of last week, and the injury feels good."
Click to expand...

The Times, 2006/04/17

'Bergkamp day' has fitting end

IF THE FUTURE AT ARSENAL IS BRIGHT, with a Champions League semi-final on the horizon, talented tyros aplenty in the team and a new stadium at Ashburton Grove to move into next season, Saturday at Highbury was all about the past. It was designated Dennis Bergkamp Day, and how fitting that, amid a bobbing backdrop of orange, he should seal victory with a trademark goal.

Arsenal had meandered listlessly into a 2-1 lead, their minds more on the meeting with Villarreal on Wednesday, when Bergkamp, a 70thminute substitute, spotted that Tomasz Kuszczak, the West Bromwich Albion goalkeeper, had strayed from his line. He has been there before, many times, during his 11 years at the club and the result was eerily familiar as he caressed the ball in a serene arc into the net.

In his moment of triumph, Bergkamp, 36, signalled to his family, high up in their executive box at the Clock End. Later, the eyes of the icecool predator misted over as he talked about the sea of orange hats, wigs and T-shirts and the closing stages of his career. He will retire at the season's end, perhaps with an appearance in the Champions League final in Paris on May 17.

"It was an emotional day," Bergkamp said. "I felt slightly embarrassed to see those T-shirts, to see everyone was focused on me. I was just happy to come on and play a part. It is some time since I had that feeling but, hopefully, I will have a few more moments like that before I go. I've been thinking about things over the past few months and I know that I don't have many games left. I now realise that this is it. So this day was special for me, I will always have the memory. Finish my career in Paris? Yes, that would be great. I have bought a
ticket already."
After Nigel Quashie had equalised for West Bromwich with a low drive, nullifying the strike from Alexander Hleb, Bergkamp made a swift impact. He set up Robert Pires to re-establish Arsenal's lead and added finesse to an otherwise limp display from his team-mates. "It's amazing what you can do with class and intelligence," Arsene Wenger, the Arsenal manager, said. "I hope this was not his last goal for us."

Thierry Henry, the Arsenal captain, is a life-long member of the Bergkamp Admiration Society. "It was the perfect end for Dennis, a typical goal," Henry said. "A lot of players would have just smashed the ball. I have always said that Dennis will remain the best partner I have ever had. He talks a lot to everyone but sometimes you just have to watch him."
Click to expand...

Indeed, this goal and assist to turn around the late April match meant that Arsenal finished in the UCL spots, rather than Tottenham Hotspur (who finished 2 points behind).

The Guardian, 2006/04/19

Last few days of vintage Bergkamp - so watch him while you can

[...]
Bobby Robson, who watched his progress at close quarters while in charge of PSV Eindhoven, said in 1992,
when every major club in Europe seemed to be in the hunt for him, that he was a player virtually without flaw.
"He scores goals," Robson said, "but he's not just a striker. He's got good movement and he makes his runs from deep in midfield. He's strong, too, so he can make a lot of those runs. He takes the ball easily on either side, he's got a lovely first touch and he's a cool finisher.
He can hit it or he can slot it and he's good at making the choice. He can head the ball. He's like Greaves or Law or Maradona - you think you've got him under control, and over 85 minutes maybe you have, but then he'll give you the slip and knock it in and there's nothing at all you can do about it.
"And he's a good team player. He works for other people, not just for himself. Even when he doesn't score you'll find his contribution to the match was considerable. And he's got an ideal temperament. He's a super boy, a good athlete and I'm told he lives well. Everything about him is absolutely right."
Fourteen years later, as Bergkamp enters the final weeks of his playing career and approaches his 37th birthday on May 10, it is hard to imagine Wenger disputing a word of Robson's analysis. And if he never scores another goal, the one which finished West Bromwich will remain the perfect signature to his letter of farewell. In its lethal grace his 121st goal in an Arsenal shirt seemed to embody every one of its predecessors.
[...]
But Bergkamp's contribution to Arsenal goes deeper than goals; what will remain of him long after his departure are the tempo and the fluidity that characterise their collective movement. Thierry Henry and Cesc
Fabregas may have taken his place in the headlines but Bergkamp's legacy is that particular sense of speed without rush and urgency without fluster which he helped Wenger to instil and which now runs through the side like an elegant watermark.
Click to expand...

BARCELONA coach Frank Rijkaard paid Arsenal veteran Dennis Bergkamp the best compliment ahead of tonight's Champions League final in Paris, describing his compatriot as an "artist".

The big showdown at the Stade de France between the Spanish champions and the Gunners will mark an end to Bergkamp's impressive 20-year career.
Bergkamp, who turned 37 last week, is set to retire after spending more than a decade with the London club.
"Bergkamp is someone special," admitted Rijkaard. "He was one of those players who made people turn up to stadiums just to watch his game."
"In a way he was making art, scoring beautiful goals."
Click to expand...

edit: I ignored the various pieces from at/after his retirement, since I was less interested in that perspective. Here a decent one by Gary Lineker

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/2336512/Superlative-Bergkamp-enhanced-our-game.html

Louis Soccer · May 2, 2018

stcv1974 said: ↑

I know what you might think, this has been done a million times, but now I would like to ask all of you to submit top 50 (or top 30 at least) greatest players ever based on 50% prime ability and 50% consistency, so just on players pure footballing ability, without taking to account trophies or even that some player may have failed in one tournament where they were expected to be outstanding. And also not to take anything away from players like George Best or George Weah you just didn't have a chance to make a significant national career.

I would also like to talk about best players in specific aspects of game like scoring, creating, dribbling and defending.
Click to expand...

BEST PLAYERS ALL TIME
1. Pelé
2. Johan Cruyff
3. Lionel Messi
4. Diego Maradona
5. Ronaldo Nazario
6. Franz Beckenbauer
7. Alfredo Di Stefano
8. Garrincha
9. Ferenc Puskas
10. Zico
11. Michel Platini
12. Zinedine Zidane
13. Ronaldinho
14. Eusebio
15. Gerd Muller
16. Romario
17. Juan Schiaffino
18. George Best
19. Cristiano Ronaldo
20. Lothar Mattaeus

PDG1978 · May 25, 2018

Top 20 DBS Calcio Premier League average ratings for 2017/18 (with adjusted figure in brackets for comparison to other years based on the calculated figure of 6.68 as the average of the sample of 1st, 2nd, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 19th, 20th places from the top 20 as per other seasons):

2017/18
Kevin De Bruyne (7.22, 7.19)
David Silva (7.04, 7.01)
Philippe Coutinho (7.01, 6.98)
Mo Salah (6.97, 6.94)
Leroy Sane (6.84, 6.81)
Raheem Sterling (6.76, 6.73)
Christian Eriksen (6.76, 6.73)
Wilfried Zaha (6.74, 6.71)
Sergio Aguero (6.62, 6.59)
Eden Hazard (6.60, 6.57)
Harry Kane (6.56, 6.53)
Fernandinho (6.56, 6.53)
Aaron Ramsey (6.54, 6.51)
N'Golo Kante (6.53, 6.50)
Riyad Mahrez (6.53, 6.50)
Bernardo Silva (6.51, 6.48)
Roberto Firmino (6.51, 6.48)
Gabriel Jesus (6.50, 6.47)
Sadio Mane (6.48, 6.45)
Andy Robertson (6.46, 6.43)

*Included Coutinho as per previous protocol (having that many and a rating near the top of the list), but not eligible for being on overall summary lists as played 13 registered games only.

PDG1978 · May 25, 2018

PDG1978 said: ↑

Top 20 DBS Calcio Premier League average ratings for 2017/18 (with adjusted figure in brackets for comparison to other years based on the calculated figure of 6.68 as the average of the sample of 1st, 2nd, 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 19th, 20th places from the top 20 as per other seasons):

2017/18
Kevin De Bruyne (7.22, 7.19)
David Silva (7.04, 7.01)
Philippe Coutinho (7.01, 6.98)
Mo Salah (6.97, 6.94)
Leroy Sane (6.84, 6.81)
Raheem Sterling (6.76, 6.73)
Christian Eriksen (6.76, 6.73)
Wilfried Zaha (6.74, 6.71)
Sergio Aguero (6.62, 6.59)
Eden Hazard (6.60, 6.57)
Harry Kane (6.56, 6.53)
Fernandinho (6.56, 6.53)
Aaron Ramsey (6.54, 6.51)
N'Golo Kante (6.53, 6.50)
Riyad Mahrez (6.53, 6.50)
Bernardo Silva (6.51, 6.48)
Roberto Firmino (6.51, 6.48)
Gabriel Jesus (6.50, 6.47)
Sadio Mane (6.48, 6.45)
Andy Robertson (6.46, 6.43)

*Included Coutinho as per previous protocol (having that many and a rating near the top of the list), but not eligible for being on overall summary lists as played 13 registered games only.
Click to expand...

So top rated midfielders - De Bruyne and Silva.
And top rated attackers - Saleh and Sane.

Meanwhile 2nd rated defender would be Gomez of Liverpool with 6.40 (although Alexander-Arnold's average from under 20 games is above his and also slightly above Robertson's, at 6.54, and I'd have to check but arguably it might be consistent with what I did before to call him top rated defender of the season with his 18 games - I won't check though but decide this post will suffice - ditto whether I'd think he played enough to make the top 20 and edge Robertson out of that too at that many games and without a rating near the very top of the whole list!).

And De Gea top GK at 6.40, followed by Fabianski with 6.30.

6.69 was the calculated 'average' for the top 20 sorry, once Coutinho was inserted into the order.

PDG1978 · May 25, 2018

Copy and paste of post 687, inserting 2017/18 players.....

Top 20 adjusted ratings for Premier League excluding the first two seasons
(50% rated games required)
1 - Luis Suarez (Liverpool/Uruguay) - 2013/14 - 7.21
2 - Cesc Fabregas (Arsenal/Spain) - 2009/10 - 7.20
3 - Kevin De Bruyne (Manchester City/Belgium) - 2017/18 - 7.19
4= Steven Gerrard (Liverpool/England) - 2005/06 - 7.12
4= Frank Lampard (Chelsea/England) - 2009/10 - 7.12
6= Juan Mata (Chelsea/Spain) - 2012/13 - 7.08
6= Jamie Vardy (Leicester/England) - 2015/16 - 7.08
8= Robert Pires (Arsenal/France) - 2001/02 - 7.06
8= Cristiano Ronaldo (Manchester United/Portugal) - 2006/07 - 7.06
10= Keith Gillespie (Newcastle/Northern Ireland) - 1997/98 - 7.04
10= Wayne Rooney (Manchester United/England) - 2009/10 - 7.04
12= Steven Gerrard (Liverpool/England) - 2003/04 - 7.02
12= Yohann Cabaye (Newcastle/France) - 2013/14 - 7.02
14 - David Silva (Manchester City/Spain) - 2017/18 - 7.01
15= Patrick Vieira (Arsenal/France) - 2002/03 - 7.00
15= Eden Hazard (Chelsea/Belgium) - 2016/17 - 7.00
17= Steven Gerrard (Liverpool/England) - 2008/09 - 6.99
17= Didier Drogba (Chelsea/Ivory Coast) - 2009/10 - 6.99
19= Dennis Bergkamp (Arsenal/Netherlands) - 1997/98 - 6.97
19= Riyad Mahrez (Leicester/Algeria) - 2015/16 - 6.97

PDG1978 · May 25, 2018

And here is this one again too, updated:

Top 20 actual ratings for the Premier League excluding the first two seasons and the two outliers (2009/10 and 2013/14)
(60% rated games required)
1 - Kevin De Bruyne (Manchester City/Belgium) - 2017/18 - 7.22
2= Steven Gerrard (Liverpool/England) - 2005/06 - 7.09
2= Cristiano Ronaldo (Manchester United/Portugal) - 2006/07 - 7.09
2= Juan Mata (Chelsea/Spain) - 2012/13 - 7.09
5 - Steven Gerrard (Liverpool/England) - 2003/04 - 7.06
6 - Robert Pires (Arsenal/France) - 2001/02 - 7.05
7= Steven Gerrard (Liverpool/England) - 2008/09 - 7.04
7= David Silva (Manchester City/Spain) - 2017/18 - 7.04
9 - Jamie Vardy (Leicester/England) - 2015/16 - 7.03
10 - Eden Hazard (Chelsea/Belgium) - 2016/17 - 7.00
11= Patrick Vieira (Arsenal/France) - 2002/03 - 6.97
11= Mo Salah (Liverpool/Egypt) - 2017/18 - 6.97
13 - Luis Suarez (Liverpool/Uruguay) - 2012/13 - 6.96
14= Thierry Henry (Arsenal/France) - 2003/04 - 6.95
14= Cristiano Ronaldo (Manchester United/Portugal) - 2007/08 - 6.95
14= Sergio Aguero (Manchester City/Argentina) - 2011/12 - 6.95
17= Dennis Bergkamp (Arsenal/Netherlands) - 1997/98 - 6.94
17= Wayne Rooney (Manchester United/England) - 2007/08 - 6.94
19 - Thomas Gravesen (Everton/Denmark) - 2004/05 - 6.93
20= Sasa Curcic (Bolton/Yugoslavia) - 1995/96 - 6.92
20= Mikel Arteta (Everton/Spain) - 2006/07 - 6.92
20= Riyad Mahrez (Leicester/Algeria) - 2015/16 - 6.92

poetgooner · May 30, 2018

How are 09/10 and 13/14 outliers? Interesting that CR7 06/07 is his most highly rated under this system.

PDG1978 · May 31, 2018

poetgooner said: ↑

How are 09/10 and 13/14 outliers? Interesting that CR7 06/07 is his most highly rated under this system.
Click to expand...

The ratings in 09/10 especially but also 13/14 were generally much higher (among the well-rated players at least - perhaps it can be that the sources used were more extreme in their ratings with bigger variances - I guess handing out a lot of 9s and 10s but also 3s and 4s for example).

I assume at least it is partially to do with sources used (maybe one or two new ones introduced). But anyway, I made attempts to equalise things by adjusting ratings so that top 20s from each season would be comparable ratings wise (results shown in post 1310), and still 09/10 and 13/14 players were among the top players on the leaderboard. Showing just straight ratings as per post 1311, players from those seasons would absolutely dominate such a leaderboard and so they don't seem reasonably comparable and such a table doesn't seem so useful.

PuckVanHeel · May 31, 2018

Nice work PDG. Thierry Henry is a glaring omission of course.

On the History Channel over here there is now a series about player comparisons. I really had to laugh. Pele vs Maradona with a panel of Giggs, Matthaus, Lineker and Zola. Hmmm where will that head to.... Also scrolled to the end of Zidane vs Platini, lol.

PuckVanHeel · May 31, 2018

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

Nice work PDG. Thierry Henry is a glaring omission of course.

On the History Channel over here there is now a series about player comparisons. I really had to laugh. Pele vs Maradona with a panel of Giggs, Matthaus, Lineker and Zola. Hmmm where will that head to.... Also scrolled to the end of Zidane vs Platini, lol.
Click to expand...

For some comic relief:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...il-messi-ronaldo-maradona-voted-a8371576.html

Of course it is subjective but, say, the Voetbal International one was miles better.

PDG1978 · May 31, 2018

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

For some comic relief:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport...il-messi-ronaldo-maradona-voted-a8371576.html

Of course it is subjective but, say, the Voetbal International one was miles better.
Click to expand...

Hmm, yes, the poll threw up some region-specific and era-specific, and fame-specific kind of results there I think (maybe not all the people asked were even football fans?). The World Soccer end of the century results seemed a bit more reasonable. Here, Rooney is above Platini and Salah is already just one place behind Van Basten, plus Cruyff is unusually low and Di Stefano/Puskas even moreso.

Tropeiro · Jun 1, 2018

Why some people here seems to underestimate Cristiano Ronaldo?

He had a great constancy -
he was selected as member of UEFA Team of the year 12-times since 2004.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Team_of_the_Year#By_player - and prominence in some of the most successful clubs of all time (Real Madrid and Manchester United) and also a very good peak as a player. You can argue that between 2006/2007 till 2014/2015 he was a TOP 2/3 player in the world, just behind Messi ( that I particularly consider a TOP2 all time player).

But even if his peak was at the same time of Messi's peak he still managed to have seasons where he was possibly the best player of the season like in the 2006/2007, 2007/2008 and 2013/2014, in these years he was elect the best player in Premier League and in La Liga: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premier_League_Player_of_the_Season https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Liga_Awards
and in 2007/2008 and 2013/2014 also the top scorer in Champions League:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_Cup_and_UEFA_Champions_League_top_scorers#By_player
...and others almost at the same level and in what I consider a inferior Real Madrid compared with a 2009-2012 Barcelona.

Few players in all football history had numbers like 450 goals and 119 assists in 438 matches (105 goals and 28 assists in 101 matches in Champions League) like Cristiano Ronaldo w/ Real Madrid.

If it was back in 50-80 where most of South American were playing in their national leagues and not in Europe, he could had make even more ballon d'ors since Kaka and Messi were also the last winners of this award and Cristiano Ronaldo was ranked as the best European footballer in these occasions.

Here some highlights of different seasons where he was much more worth player than today - he is still a very good player by the way, a lot of players don't pass the 30 mark so well as CR.

I believe that most people will only know how to rank him after he has retired. He has already a very good carrer to be placed so low many times.

TitoTata · Jun 1, 2018

I'm guessing much of Cronaldo's low ratings are simply down to him being a bit of a " censored " ..

PuckVanHeel · Jun 2, 2018

PDG1978 said: ↑

Hmm, yes, the poll threw up some region-specific and era-specific, and fame-specific kind of results there I think (maybe not all the people asked were even football fans?). The World Soccer end of the century results seemed a bit more reasonable. Here, Rooney is above Platini and Salah is already just one place behind Van Basten, plus Cruyff is unusually low and Di Stefano/Puskas even moreso.
Click to expand...

Yeah I was (still am) a bit annoyed that they seriously compared Klinsmann to Van Basten although in a way it's easier to compare contemporaries and Lineker still thinks MvB is the best striker in history (if fit). It was the same opinion that he had for that 2000 'great strikers' poll among peers if you remember that. Though I did see Lothar Matthaus rates Bergkamp his influence and skill very high!

The direct comparisons done were: Bale vs Beckham; Klinsmann vs MvB; Messi vs Cristiano; Pele vs Maradona; Zidane vs Platini.

With respect to their Cristiano Ronaldo placement in the list I am more on their side as your idea as you know, although in effect you still rate him as 2nd best of his generation (behind Messi).
It's not like you place him behind Xavi or Iniesta, which I've seen too.

He does have a peculiar career now - when comparing it to other top 50 players - in that many of his achievements came when he was not at his best or past his peak (to the point of being the worst outfield player on the pitch, like the 2014 and 2017 CL final, maybe 2016 too). Also at ManUnited one can pose the idea he won 3 of his 6 major trophies when he was (far) below his level. But that's football. I can see it happening ppl in 50 years time look at the Ballon d'Ors, trophies, then watch the finals and the big matches, and think his peak was 2014-2018 but wasn't that special as a peak.

Also like this series of articles, with excerpts from their own archives:

https://www.francefootball.fr/news/...marque-l-histoire-de-la-coupe-du-monde/889442

If you can't read you can open it in chrome and use translate ofc.

PDG1978 · Jun 2, 2018

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

Yeah I was (still am) a bit annoyed that they seriously compared Klinsmann to Van Basten although in a way it's easier to compare contemporaries and Lineker still thinks MvB is the best striker in history (if fit). It was the same opinion that he had for that 2000 'great strikers' poll among peers if you remember that. Though I did see Lothar Matthaus rates Bergkamp his influence and skill very high!

The direct comparisons done were: Bale vs Beckham; Klinsmann vs MvB; Messi vs Cristiano; Pele vs Maradona; Zidane vs Platini.

With respect to their Cristiano Ronaldo placement in the list I am more on their side as your idea as you know, although in effect you still rate him as 2nd best of his generation (behind Messi).
It's not like you place him behind Xavi or Iniesta, which I've seen too.

He does have a peculiar career now - when comparing it to other top 50 players - in that many of his achievements came when he was not at his best or past his peak (to the point of being the worst outfield player on the pitch, like the 2014 and 2017 CL final, maybe 2016 too). Also at ManUnited one can pose the idea he won 3 of his 6 major trophies when he was (far) below his level. But that's football. I can see it happening ppl in 50 years time look at the Ballon d'Ors, trophies, then watch the finals and the big matches, and think his peak was 2014-2018 but wasn't that special as a peak.

Also like this series of articles, with excerpts from their own archives:

https://www.francefootball.fr/news/...marque-l-histoire-de-la-coupe-du-monde/889442

If you can't read you can open it in chrome and use translate ofc.
Click to expand...

Yeah, Bale vs Beckham seems a strange one (attribute/style wise). And although I guess I do rate Klinsmann (at his best) relatively high, I'd be pretty sure of my conclusion in MvB's favour in what does seem a lop-sided duo really.

I think in my latest draft of a top 100, I had C.Ronaldo at 17th now, so gradually he creeps up lol (just below Zico now, and even slightly ahead of M.Laudrup) but I started to at least consider longevity and that only helps him of course, and maybe that is as high as I'll estimate him now in any list I think of, although I wouldn't be too surprised if the consensus puts him at about position CR....7 (not 17) lol - not that that sort of position is guaranteed to be established and maintained, as for example it wasn't long ago when Messi but not he got in the consensus World Soccer All-Time XI (he didn't receive a lot of votes in voters selections either at that time, but got a few).

TitoTata · Jun 2, 2018

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

Yeah I was (still am) a bit annoyed that they seriously compared Klinsmann to Van Basten although in a way it's easier to compare contemporaries and Lineker still thinks MvB is the best striker in history (if fit). It was the same opinion that he had for that 2000 'great strikers' poll among peers if you remember that. Though I did see Lothar Matthaus rates Bergkamp his influence and skill very high!

The direct comparisons done were: Bale vs Beckham; Klinsmann vs MvB; Messi vs Cristiano; Pele vs Maradona; Zidane vs Platini.

With respect to their Cristiano Ronaldo placement in the list I am more on their side as your idea as you know, although in effect you still rate him as 2nd best of his generation (behind Messi).
It's not like you place him behind Xavi or Iniesta, which I've seen too.

He does have a peculiar career now - when comparing it to other top 50 players - in that many of his achievements came when he was not at his best or past his peak (to the point of being the worst outfield player on the pitch, like the 2014 and 2017 CL final, maybe 2016 too). Also at ManUnited one can pose the idea he won 3 of his 6 major trophies when he was (far) below his level. But that's football. I can see it happening ppl in 50 years time look at the Ballon d'Ors, trophies, then watch the finals and the big matches, and think his peak was 2014-2018 but wasn't that special as a peak.

Also like this series of articles, with excerpts from their own archives:

https://www.francefootball.fr/news/...marque-l-histoire-de-la-coupe-du-monde/889442

If you can't read you can open it in chrome and use translate ofc.
Click to expand...

I saw enough after seeing Rooney ahead of Platini .. laughable

PuckVanHeel · Jun 3, 2018

PDG1978 said: ↑

Yeah, Bale vs Beckham seems a strange one (attribute/style wise). And although I guess I do rate Klinsmann (at his best) relatively high, I'd be pretty sure of my conclusion in MvB's favour in what does seem a lop-sided duo really.
Click to expand...

Yeah after scrolling to the vote results of the other episodes I see it did have actually the most lop sided vote pattern of all, despite that Klinsmann was an elite striker of course (yes, I remember/know you rate him high, especially within his own generation). For technical skill all four (Jenas, Matthaus, Zola, Lineker) went decidedly for MvB. For goals Matthaus and Jenas went for Klinsmann but Lineker and Zola picked MvB (Klinsmann scored more goals for the national team, but MvB had in 7 fewer years as many career goals and scored more goals at the continental level, plus much better record in finals). For set pieces all went for MvB, and this is where Zola as an set piece expert was interesting to hear. For 'team player' Matthaus, Lineker and Jenas went for Klinsmann, citing his expansive persona, athleticism and enthusiasm. Zola preferred MvB as a team oriented player. For 'big moments' all four went for MvB, even if not scoring and for 'legacy' (legend, influence on later generations) all four went for MvB too. So with 5 vs 19 votes it was still the most lop sided vote result of all episodes, now I've scrolled to the end of them all. Which makes it all the more strange that in the final list Klinsmann is placed one spot ahead.

PDG1978 said: ↑

I think in my latest draft of a top 100, I had C.Ronaldo at 17th now, so gradually he creeps up lol (just below Zico now, and even slightly ahead of M.Laudrup) but I started to at least consider longevity and that only helps him of course, and maybe that is as high as I'll estimate him now in any list I think of, although I wouldn't be too surprised if the consensus puts him at about position CR....7 (not 17) lol - not that that sort of position is guaranteed to be established and maintained, as for example it wasn't long ago when Messi but not he got in the consensus World Soccer All-Time XI (he didn't receive a lot of votes in voters selections either at that time, but got a few).
Click to expand...

Sorry, I meant the 2018 final of course. 2017 was a typo.

Tropeiro · Jun 4, 2018

PuckVanHeel said: ↑

He does have a peculiar career now - when comparing it to other top 50 players - in that many of his achievements came when he was not at his best or past his peak (to the point of being the worst outfield player on the pitch, like the 2014 and 2017 CL final, maybe 2016 too). Also at ManUnited one can pose the idea he won 3 of his 6 major trophies when he was (far) below his level. But that's football. I can see it happening ppl in 50 years time look at the Ballon d'Ors, trophies, then watch the finals and the big matches, and think his peak was 2014-2018 but wasn't that special as a peak.
Click to expand...

Some of these CL's finals he was injured, doesn't he? Like now in 2018, I don't think he was 100% since he had an injury against Barcelona.
JBut just a question question, do you think he was past his prime already in 2014? Looking at some matches 2013/2014 I feel he was already somewhat slower (but it still was a differential at that time) than his first three seasons at Real Madrid.

PuckVanHeel · Jun 4, 2018

Tropeiro said: ↑

Some of these CL's finals he was injured, doesn't he? Like now in 2018, I don't think he was 100% since he had an injury against Barcelona.
JBut just a question question, do you think he was past his prime already in 2014? Looking at some matches 2013/2014 I feel he was already somewhat slower (but it still was a differential at that time) than his first three seasons at Real Madrid.
Click to expand...

Just to say here that I will not forget this, but will get to it at the end of the week.

PuckVanHeel · Jun 5, 2018

PDG1978 said: ↑

Yeah, Bale vs Beckham seems a strange one (attribute/style wise). And although I guess I do rate Klinsmann (at his best) relatively high, I'd be pretty sure of my conclusion in MvB's favour in what does seem a lop-sided duo really.

I think in my latest draft of a top 100, I had C.Ronaldo at 17th now, so gradually he creeps up lol (just below Zico now, and even slightly ahead of M.Laudrup) but I started to at least consider longevity and that only helps him of course, and maybe that is as high as I'll estimate him now in any list I think of, although I wouldn't be too surprised if the consensus puts him at about position CR....7 (not 17) lol - not that that sort of position is guaranteed to be established and maintained, as for example it wasn't long ago when Messi but not he got in the consensus World Soccer All-Time XI (he didn't receive a lot of votes in voters selections either at that time, but got a few).
Click to expand...

What do you think of the France Football series? I find it really good. How they use their own archive and cite things as KO goals. They're also aware Rep is NLD their number one scorer, but they leave him out with reason and thoughts on penalties and KO goals.