Latest changes: Falcao for Leonidas; Planicka for Cech. Gullit moves to 1990-2009. 1870-1919: 5 players (average 1 per decade) – Charlie Campbell, Nick Ross, GO Smith, Bloomer, Piendibene 1920-1949: 27 players (average 9 per decade) – Scarone, JL Andrade, Obdulio Varela, Seoane, Sastre, Moreno, Pedernera, Monti, Orsi, Domingos da Guia, Zizinho, Erico, Meazza, Valentino Mazzola, Zamora, Fritz Walter, Sindelar, Bican, Braine, Nordahl, Orth, Sarosi, Puskas, Planicka, Hughie Gallacher, Matthews, Finney 1950-69: 20 players (average 10 per decade) – Di Stefano, Didi, Garrincha, Djalma Santos, Nilton Santos, Pele, Schiaffino, Spencer, Eusebio, Facchetti, Rivera, Gento, Suarez, Kopa, Bozsic, Yashin, Djajic, Best, Charlton, Moore 1970-89: 20 players (average 10 per decade) – Maradona. Passarella, Rivelino, Zico, Falcao, Chumpitaz, Cubillas, Figueroa, Beckenbauer, Muller, Maier, Breitner, Rummenigge, Cruyff, van Hanegem, Krol, van Basten, Scirea, Zoff, Platini 1990-2009: 20 players (average 10 per decade) – Romario, Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Roberto Carlos, Kahn, Matthaus, Baresi, Maldini, Baggio, Buffon, Zidane, Henry, Thuram, Figo, Gullit, Rijkaard, Bergkamp, Nedved, Michael Laudrup, Weah 2010-17: 8 players (average 10 per decade) – Messi, Cristiano Ronaldo, Lahm, Neuer, Xavi, Iniesta, Lewandowski, Modric By nationality: Brazil 14, Argentina 10, Germany 10, Italy 10, British Isles 10 (England 6, Scotland 3, Northern Ireland 1), Eastern Europe 10 (Hungary 4, Former Czechoslovakia 2, Former Yugoslavia 2, Poland 1, Former USSR 1), Netherlands 7, France 5, Spain 5, Other Western Europe 5 (Austria 2, Belgium 1, Denmark 1, Sweden 1), Uruguay 5, Other Latin America 5 (Peru 2, Chile 1, Paraguay 1, Ecuador 1), Portugal 3, Rest of World 1 (Liberia) Goalkeepers: 8 Defenders (including old centre-halves): 21 Total: 100
Most of them are pretty much no-brainers really. My XI would have been the same as the pundits' with the exception of Keane in place of Gerrard and maybe Beckham in place of Ronaldo. The majority of those players are the first generation to play their entire career in the PL era. Will be interesting to see how it changes in the next 10/20 years.
Was Schmeichel as a Premier League goalkeeper really that much more outstanding than Cech or VdS? Although Cech is now about to grow 'too old', he has naturally a larger body of work esp. when including the first few Arsenal seasons. VdS had some outstanding stats going for him at Fulham, including 'clean sheets' (and that clean sheets weren't mere luck is proven by his record and records for NT and in Champions League too). Seen it in entirety, including national team, Schmeichel is my goalkeeper for the 1990s but a peculiar point would be that at some stages he gained a reputation for occasional howlers and errors (esp. early in his career except the first season) and was strangely only once included in the PFA team of the year. Notable is it includes a player with 0 Premier League titles (Gerrard) and 1 title (Shearer, although that particular season was a strong one by him). Unlike many fictional teams, it doesn't feature a number ten either.
Although one might say Thierry Henry provided a bit of that role (did not play with number 10 ofc, he played with number 14 and 12). "Between Aug 2001 & May 2006, Danny Murphy assisted 34 PL goals; only Henry 53, Giggs 49, Bergkamp 41 & Lampard 37 had more. Peak." That said, more so than a Cantona, Scholes or Bergkamp (but not unlike Giggs, Gerrard, Lampard, Beckham), some of his assists arrived from a set piece situation. And many arrived from deep in the wings rather than centrally. Even with that in mind though one might argue he was a bit of that roving number 10, or did it at times.
Personally, I wouldn't even use the 442 even though it's the formation most associated with the league. I think the league's most successful formation is actually the 433, so I would have started with that.
I feel like they could have incorporated a drop down box to allow voters to choose a formation from some reasonable options. Flat 4-4-2, 4-1-3-2, 4-4-1-1, 3-5-2, 3-4-3, diamond, 3-4-1-2, 4-3-3. If done well the options for each position could have changed based on formation I'd have thought even. Bergkamp would've been in any team I selected I think to be fair, although arguably his absolute PL peak was quite short even though his overall longevity as a very useful player was better than most.
Maybe not *that* far ahead but I think Schmeichel had a higher peak for longer. Seaman was also excellent and relatively underrated.
Yeah, could do - could get some 'silly' choices I guess (even deliberately - I remember David Howells got a few votes in World Soccer's player of the century poll and I have a feeling maybe many people voted for Justin Fashanu in that or something similar although his name doesn't appear in the results for that anyway). I realise I didn't even list 4-2-3-1 which I'd probably have chosen as indicated! Perhaps 3-4-2-1 could be an option, allowing players like Zola behind the striker, but Chelsea's 3-4-3 is sort of like that anyway with Hazard having freedom. For 3-4-1-2 or 3-5-2 I wouldn't be sure really if someone like Giggs should be allowed as 'left wing back' or in effect 'left midfield/deep winger' as it'd seem a stretch and definitely all-star/fantasy XI tn it's not his role historically, but an argument could be made if Steve Guppy could do it to good effect surely Giggs could do too and it'd be a feasible choice for a best XI on paper (with a view to being on grass too). With it allowing Bergkamp behind two strikers, or even two number 10s behind a striker, maybe I'd even be tempted with that lol, with a Sol Campbell or Phillipe Albert added in on the left of a back 3! But it wouldn't be a great one to include CR7, although 3-4-3 could be....and not just for a peaceful life but I'd feel I probably should have him in, even if knowing he'd get lots of votes and forced into using 4-4-2 I voted for Beckham and Giggs instead!
If I stick by my ideas Schmeichel is amongst the best GKs ever, and agree with you on length of peak which I think I do (although perhaps even moreso vs Seaman especially as he played in the old 1st Division too; van der Sar's PL consistency is probably an overall plus point too I'd think) then he has to be my default choice too, but I could see Seaman, Cech, Van der Sar and now De Gea perhaps being viable (the latter might extend his consistency/longevity a bit yet, but probably leads the likes of Courtois, Lloris for modern choices and might be the only real option there - Richard Keys did pick him I saw). One interesting one in what would be your selection (I'd have guessed the rest maybe as I'd have thought you'd certainly want to reflect good longevity and although maybe just as I wouldn't completely dismiss ideas of a DM helping team balance/cohesion you might not do with a number 10 either, I would have thought both Shearer and Henry might get in your team all things considered) might be Terry rather than indeed Campbell. I guess that might mean Terry climbed fairly substantially higher now in your all-time positional rankings for when you might re-do your threads (maybe the Bobby Moore comments already hinted at that too; btw Peter told me he'd have them both in an all-time England selection at least if he wasn't convinced he wanted one faster centre-back)? But possibly you go Terry>Campbell for PL longevity and weigh that high here, and also Campbell>Terry for International performances, especially in WC/Euros?
In 2013, among retired goalkeepers, Van der Sar (0.42), Schmeichel (0.41) and Seaman (0.41) had the most clean sheets per game. Petr Cech was then on course to better them all but his last couple of seasons might not have helped. Same for Schmeichel in has last two EPL season and Sar at Fulham. Petr Cech is also with Casillas, Sar and Buffon in the top four UCL clean sheets all-time. On a per game basis Cech and Sar on top.
Good info! Of course the defence is a factor, but the goalies understanding with them can even help too, and probably a little bit like with F1 drivers normally the best goalkeepers end up in the best teams due to shining elsewhere (van der Sar a good example; not sure who the equivalent of an unlucky/unwise Fernando Alonso might be though when it comes to a less rewarding transfer!).
While for forwards/assisters it maybe helps to play now (up to ~40% fewer fouls per game), for goalkeepers it is maybe the other way. Although those records are from 1992 onward anyway of course, with an expansion to 32 UCL teams in 1997. That The Mixer book has some good parts on the goalkeepers, including Schmeichel. Also that recent Duncan Alexander book (from OPTA) 'Outside the Box: A Statistical Journey through the History of Football' is interesting. The summary of 'Holland' [sic] is: "a nation who have punched above their weight, largely through tactical innovation and a systematic refusal to follow the herd." The access to the statistical database gives an interesting extra dimension of course.
I think that position is something like this: 1990 - 2000: Cantona 1995 - 2005: Bergkamp 2000 - 2010: Henry (or Gerrard/Scholes) - maybe this period hasn't a viable candidate 2005 - 2015: Rooney On longevity (not technical prowess and maybe peak) there is an argument for Rooney at #1, purely for the league. You often tend to rate (and did long before I joined this board) Dutch players slightly higher than the usual lists though rarely excessive. Sometimes even I disagree with it, LOL. comme invariably always much lower, vs contemporary peers.
Yes, makes sense that goals conceded per game can go up although perhaps the counter effect can be some of the top teams can just win by more now (but in recent times that might be more applicable to Barca/Real/Bayern than English teams). Nice description of Dutch football and I can see why you'd approve of that. Yeah, maybe the number 10 role has even passed over into more of a midfield role now in the PL - Fabregas at Arsenal not so long ago too for example. I guess I do rate several Dutch players above the norm including DB10 to an extent I'd think, and I did before we talked so it's not only to please you lol. although I know comme does appreciate and like Dutch football from a historical perspective too to be fair. I hope you didn't feel upset with him saying 'it's hard to make the case for 10 Dutchmen at risk of annoying Puck' or anything as I can say as an English person ere is no malice in statements like that and I guess you agree 10 would be too much anyway (actually when you two get on well you exchange good info a lot I've noticed, and rep each other for it). I know Bergkamp is going up his all-time lists anyway (like Terry maybe, but fully for reasons of revision rather than cumulative merit enhanced after his threads), but probably it's my preference for a number 10 and not to be without guile/creativity/cohesion as a priority (even in a fantasy XI, or especially in a fantasy XI!) that makes me put him in and as the results show Shearer's record and potency makes a majority pick him too (whether many picked Henry with Bergkamp, or Shearer with Cantona is not clear I suppose though for examples). Hard to leave out Henry all in all for anyone maybe!
Yes, I agreed 5 to 7 is fine (8 already feeling as too much). + edited above post with comment on Rooney. Although I saw the recent FFT and backpagefootball (more thorough attempt) was still not sold on him. Some of your other calls like Brian Laudrup, Savicevic or Henrik Larson might maybe feel more excessive (than any of previously discussed players) but yes I agree Brian Laudrup was good in three different national team tournaments, perhaps as only player of that era and he was technically with stardust.
Yeah, as we found out there was/is a site showing assists in the ice hockey manner (pre-assists + assists). Even dead ball assists are in the ice hockey manner. Even if it is not entirely accurate, it is still nice info. http://www.premiersoccerstats.com/Records.cfm?DOrderby=OPAss&DYearby=All Seasons Relative to their total assists capability, then Roy Keane, Solano, Sheringham, McManaman, Scholes and Bergkamp have done particularly well. Especially Scholes bumps up in that scenario (maybe as expected, but maybe good to have confirmation). Cantona not too far behind as well (relative to his direct asists).
Yes, Shearer even seemed to say Rooney might be the best partner for him theoretically and I guess in that context he's weighing peak heavily too. No problem ofc, and yes I guess it also depends what we are trying to gauge - for this project I don't even put any of those in my 100 and only one in the second 100, but by definition I am naming less 90s players than in some other places anyway ofc (even before considerations about prolonged impact in own era, including perhaps at what level the impact was at).
Among retired players, in 2014, Cantona has still the best assists per game record in Premier League history (0.35). Of course he retired aged 30. On a per 90 minutes basis, Bergkamp is tops, followed by Cantona again (needed 10 more minutes per assist) and then a noticeable gap to the rest (30 more minutes per assist than Cantona). As noted before, not many dead ball assists (corners, free kicks) were involved. Around five and one respectively (difference with Ozil, Lampard, Fabregas and some others).
Yes, Shearer has his goal record going for him, also in an international comparison for the 1990s (his generation). He is on 420 goals, which makes that only Romario is ahead of him. Then after him there is a group between 350 and 300 goals (Batistuta, Bebeto, Zamorano, Kirsten, Chapuisat, Klinsmann, Baggio, Bergkamp, Hagi). Followed by Andy Cole, Suker, Signori, Weah, Sheringham who are between 260 and 300. Of course some of those rarely took a penalty while others have many of them (up to 35% of their total).
Yeah, matches well with being great in that support striker come free/in the hole role. Both were really good with final balls and vision I'd say too.
Yeah I'd have to think further about Campbell v Terry overall. I have just redone my English football lists (expanding them to top 50s) for Gregoriak's website and I had Terry 1 and Campbell 2 in the CBs list. I do think that Campbell's international career was something exceptional as he had 3 excellent tournaments (1998, 2002 and 2004) as well as another good one in 2000, but yes, Terry would be a big climber in my lists.
Revised lists can be found here: http://www.historical-lineups.com/e...test-players-in-english-football-history.html
I was thinking that for 2010 - 2020 it might be Hazard. Is currently on 57 goals and 35 assists in 174 games. http://metro.co.uk/2017/08/31/chels...-higher-transfer-fee-than-neymar-6893634/amp/