Best ever veteran player (35-36 years +)

@Puck, check this piece on Puskas from The Guardian:

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2006/nov/17/sport.comment2

 

Yes, I'm familiar with the opinion of mr. Wilson (despite a fine effort I don't like his tactics book that enormously, and the 1st edition is better as the altered 2nd version), and the article, but I don't see something that references to 'veteran player' exploits (35/36+) in this article. What he argues is that everything considered Cruijff and Puskas are the greatest for him - OK. But it might be that veteran Matthews was a little bit 'greater'.

No doubt all three did well as a veteran.

Matthews against Brazil, Scotland, Wales (but not at the World Cups) and in the FA Cup final. He was selective in his matches, as someone mentioned in this thread, but performed consistent for a winger.

Cruijff had definitely fine chance/goals creating displays against Liverpool, AS Roma, Tottenham, Manchester United, Torino, Ajax, Celtic etc. Though not at the best domestic league (even if it was pre-Bosman).

Puskas did well at the European Cup at the 1962-63 season and beyond, but generally in big scorelines and blowouts (and domestically there was reduced competition for the topscorer title). In the calendar year 1964 like Matthews also selective in his matches.

Personally I'm most convinced by Matthews his case as an individual (see above). Matthews vs Liedholm is an interesting one, for the club and international scene.

edit: in 1954 Matthews did perform well against Uruguay and in particular Belgium but it's not something like Liedholm I'd say though.

 

Hey Puck,
To lazy to translate, but here is something fitting for the thread (I think)
(http://www.ad.nl/ad/nl/4562/Voetbal.../12/03/Toen-Stanley-Matthews-DWV-er-was.dhtml)

Toen Stanley Matthews DWV'er was
Bewaar artikel



Door: redactie
3-12-08 - 11:05 Stanley Matthews, staande derde van links bij DWV. Rechts Gerrit Homan. Links op de voorste rij Rinus Israel. EIGEN FOTO
Stanley Matthews temidden van zijn tijdelijke medespelers bij DWV, links van hem Roef Bakker. Foto DWV
PRONKSTUK

Elke club heeft ze. Prominent boven de bar, of verscholen in een hoekje. Ze vormen de schatkamer van de amateursport. DWV koestert de herinnering aan Sir Stanley Matthews.

Centraal Station, 18.15 uur. Een stroom van reizigers, persfotografen, journalisten en bestuursleden. Dat is hem. Grijze jas, groen hoedje, koffer, rustig wandelend. How are you Mr. Matthews?'

Toenmalig DWV-voorzitter Jaap Drenthe verhaalt in het clubblad uit 1962 met gevoel voor detail - een groen hoedje - over de ontvangst van Stanley Matthews, een voetbal-icoon in Engeland en ook daarbuiten een groot speler.

Drenthe verwondert zich dat een beroemdheid zo gewoon kan blijven. 'Op naar Krasnapolsky. Voor ons koffie, voor mister Matthews.... thee. Wat een rustig mens, wat een bescheiden mens. Is deze eenvoudige man die beroemde Matthews? De grootste voetballer aller tijden! Ja, dat is de grootste voetballer, dit is 'vadertje voetbal', die man in dat eenvoudige grijze pak, die man met dat vermoeide gezicht.'

Door Wilskracht Verkregen (DWV) uit Amsterdam-Noord vierde in 1962 zijn gouden jubileum en behalve de gebruikelijke receptie moest dat gevierd met een jubileumwedstrijd. De tegenstander was snel gevonden: rivaal, buurtgenoot en eredivisieclub De Volewijckers. DWV speelde bij de amateurs en zocht voor deze prestigieuze wedstrijd naar een beroemde gastspeler, die het niveau wat kon opkrikken. De Nederlandse sterren Faas Wilkes en Abe Lenstra vielen om wat voor reden dan ook af. Het bestuur nam daarna contact op met Stanley Matthews, een Engelse ster op leeftijd, 47 inmiddels, maar nog altijd profvoetballer voor Stoke City, de club uit zijn geboortestreek.

Roef Bakker, nu erevoorzitter van DWV, was in dat jaar net toegetreden tot het bestuur en aanwezig bij de ontvangst in Krasnapolsky. ''Het was een initiatief van secretaris Gerrit van der Winkel. Hij was een meester in het organiseren van dit soort acties, maar opereerde vaak alleen. Nee, ik heb niet met Matthews gesproken. Jaap Drenthe sprak vloeiend Engels. En hij was tenslotte voorzitter.''

Matthews ging akkoord met een gage van vierduizend gulden en stelde volgens het boek 'Negentig jaar DWV' van Loek Bertels, drie aanvullende eisen: een goed hotel (Krasnapolsky), een goed veld (Olympisch Stadion) en een goede scheidsrechter (Fifa-scheidsrechter Leo Horn). DWV zou de gage makkelijk terugverdienen want het stadion zou vollopen voor 'Vadertje Voetbal' zoals Matthews in Nederland werd genoemd. De club kreeg veel publiciteit. Een jonge Herman Kuiphof kwam langs voor één van zijn eerste televisiereportages.

De Nederlandse bijnaam verwierf Matthews omdat hij tot op hoge leeftijd bleef voetballen. Met 42 jaar is hij de oudste speler die ooit voor Engeland uitkwam. Hij stopte bij Stoke toen hij vijftig was en dat vond hij eigenlijk nog te vroeg.

De verheerlijking van zijn speelstijl heeft in Engeland mythische vormen aangenomen. The Wizard of the Dribble wordt hij in eigen land genoemd of The Magician. Matthews was een klassieke rechtsbuiten met de gave om de verdediger tot het laatste moment onwetend te laten of hij binnendoor zou gaan of buitenlangs. Hij won weinig, slechts één FA Cup, maar hij groeide desondanks uit tot een icoon van de natie. Waar hij speelde zaten de stadions vol. Ook op het continent werden zijn voetbalkwaliteiten herkend. In 1956 werd hij gekozen tot de eerste Europees voetballer van het jaar, voor Alfredo di Stefano en Raymond Kopa van het grote Real Madrid.

Matthews was geen vedette met al zijn neigingen. Bij een rondgang langs Engelse websites, van BBC tot Guardian, valt geen onvertogen woord. Of het moet zijn dat hij één keer is hertrouwd. Maar scoren met de hand zoals Maradona? Of protesteren bij een scheidsrechter zoals Cruijff? Niet zijn stijl. In ruim 700 wedstrijden heeft hij nooit een waarschuwing gekregen. Engelsen hebben daar een uitdrukking voor: Every inch a gentleman.

Beseften de spelers eigenlijk welke voetbalgrootheid hun cluppie uit Amsterdam-Noord kwam versterken. ''Ik kan me herinneren dat hij met de auto naar het stadion werd gebracht,'' zegt Gerrit Homan (79), in die tijd een bonkige spits. ''Je kan zo'n man natuurlijk niet op de fiets laten komen.'' Communiceren bleek lastig. ''Wij spraken geen Engels, maar de taal van een hand verstaat iedereen.''

Homan woont nog altijd met zijn vrouw in een gerenoveerd arbeidershuisje in Tuindorp/Oostzaan. Hij heeft veel bewaard van zijn voetbalcarrière. Tussen de knipsels vindt Homan een foto van de jubileumwedstrijd. Het elftal poseert in de middencirkel. Matthews staat in het midden met de armen over elkaar. De grote Homan staat helemaal rechts. Linksonder hurkt een zeventienjarige Rinus Israël.

Homan kan zich van de wedstrijd weinig meer herinneren (Volewijckers won met 4-2, red.). Wel dat het de hele dag regende. ''We hebben eerst de meeuwen van het veld moeten jagen.'' Matthews voelde zich niet te groot om voor slechts vierduizend toeschouwers in de stromende regen te spelen.

De slechte opkomst bezorgde DWV echter een enorme strop. De club had tienduizend toeschouwers nodig om quitte te spelen. Het Olympisch Stadion zag daarom af van de huur en ook de Volewijckers stelden hun team gratis beschikbaar. De gage van Matthews bleek echter de grootste kostenpost. Zodra hij vernam dat DWV in financiële problemen kwam door het tegenvallende aantal toeschouwers liet Matthews een deel van zijn gage vallen. Hij nam genoegen met 1500 gulden. Every inch a gentleman. (STEVEN VAN DER GAAG)

 

Sorry for the kick but this just popped up in my youtube bar.


BBC: "The margin of Arsenal's victory - a record win under Arsene Wenger and a record defeat in the Premiership for Everton - was even more astonishing given the Toffees' qualification for the Champions League [...]. The Dutchman, who turned 36 on Tuesday, was by far the best player on the pitch, his every touch, his every pass, drawing appreciation from the Highbury crowd."

I was immediately looking for Giggs vs Manchester City in 2008 or 2009 I think, but found this interesting one instead.

 

Yes - agree with all of that. First half in that video (2 assists, long pass pre-assist) is also without focal point (for the attack, inverted wing play, the goals) Thierry Henry of course, which changed the way of play probably as an individual and team. But it was a record win apparently against a Champions League team, record defeat for Everton, and that made it worthwhile to post.

Giggs; yes, that was also in the ManCity game I remember.

 

In that debut he was just 17 years old. He clearly didn't have anything that resembled the pace he had a few years later (like some other 17-18 years olds) but he had a few good struck crosses. I know your own perception was that during his prime (1993, 1994 and the late 90s/early 00s) he tend to hit crosses to short or too long and wasted too much opportunities IIRC. This is a short video giving a good impression/summary imho.


Later in his career he became more accurate perhaps like you say. Often when people say "great passer" they tend to think of the ones with a lot of sideways balls (e.g. Xavi vs Ireland in 2012) or one with many spectacular attempts but with high failure rate (often capitalizing on the one or two that are successful, and pacy forwards exploit, is enough to win the match, however). Personally I have a soft spot for the players who find a good balance in between with variation and pausing the time. That aforementioned website showing the pre-assists (open play, dead ball etc.) certainly shows a bump for the late Giggs years (wingers have by nature not many pre-assists?). Very often a partnership like Carrick-Giggs in midfield looked very vulnerable though (and not just in the 2011 UCL final, with a 4-4-2).
http://www.premiersoccerstats.com/Records.cfm?DOrderby=Ass

 

@PDG1978

Maybe you find this interesting (as something I came across past week, and I had immediately this thread in mind because it's one of the main themes/talking points in both articles).

France Football in 1984 (07/02/1984):






France Football 22/05/1984 (after retirement)



Guerin Sportivo 29 February - 6 March 1984:












Of course it helped that his club had a successful season (him playing well in Europe too) and that there weren't that many veterans around at the time.

 

Johann Cruyff and by a distance.if anyone can show me any 36 year old in European club football history performing at this level than I will reconsider my position

He was a complete anomaly as far as great players are concerned..an absolute genius

 

Translation needed urgently
@greatstriker11 @PuckVanHeel

 

The show's title is "Andere Tijden Sport" (Different Times in Sport) presented by Tom Egbers

Dutch:
Voor Andere Tijden Sport, over naar de Olympisch stadion in Amsterdam. Het is de meest besproken transfer uit de geschiedennis van de Nederlandse voetbal. ras-Amsterdammer Johan Cruijff stapt over van Ajax naar hun aarts rivaal Feyenoord. Dat promt na 10 jaar weer eens kampioen wordt.

Goedenavond. Het paste niet, het hoorde niet, maar toch gebeurde het. Verwaring overheerst nog altijd als we over de beelden kijken. Op 6 Mei 1984, viert Johan Cruijff het kampioenschap van Feyenoord op de bordes van hat stadshuis van Rotterdam. Hij rookt een sigarettke en schijnt te hebben gezegd "So dus dit is nou de Coolsingel". Een jaar eerder is Cruijff beledegd vertrokken uit Amsterdam en zoekt kontakt meet aarsts rivaal Feyenoord dat er na half jaar onderhandelen inlijft. Met Cruiff winst Rotterdam de landstietel and de nationale voetbalbeker, een ongekend success. Maar het legioen in Amsterdam is het niet onverdeeld blij mee. Andere Tijden Sport over de wraak van Cruiff.

Ik kom namens de stichting bestuur mededelen, we zijn erg verheugs over, dat er een overeenstemming is bereikt met Johan Cruijff, een een jarige overeenkomst bij Feyenoord. Ik zou graag Johan vragen om de overeenkomst te ondertekenen, hij heeft het al bekeken.

Wij waren hartstikke blij ermee. En het was een hele goeie zaak geweest. Snapt U hoe gevoelig het zou kunnen liggen in Amsterdam? "Nou, nee. Ik heb er geen moment aangedacht" Gerard Kerkum (Feyenoord chairman 1982-1989). "Ik heb alleen over Feyenoord gedacht en Johan Cruijff".

"Je hebt jaarlijks een seizoen kaart?"
"Ja"
"ook in het seizoen 83 en 84?"
"had ik besteld en ik had hem al binnen"
"en wat gebeurde er toen?"
"Hmmmm....nou de geruchten gingen dat toen Johan Cruijff bij ons zou komen spelen, en dat vondt ik toch een brug te ver.Ik heb die kaart toen gewoon ....[gebaren ... neem aan hij had die kaart kapot gescheurd]...en richting Feyenoord Stadion de tour afzenden of zou."
"verscheurd verstuurd?"
"ja"

"mischien is het een hele aardige en vriendelijke man, dat weet ik niet, Maar je maakt Jasser Arafat ook geen president van Israel"
"jij wantrouwde op zijn motivatie, dat hij alleen maar was voor de eer?"
"ja, dat is zo'n vraak, en mischien heeft geld in die periode geen rol gespeeld in die periode van zijn carriere. Maar zo'n motieven vondt ik niet zuiver om wraak te nemen op de Club die jouw heeft gemaakt wat je nu bent. En ook wel is het dan de aartsrivaal van deze club hier. Dat vindt ik zo'n laag emotie, dat kan ik niet mee uit de voeten"



English
Tom Egbers: Andere Tijden Sport is in the Olympic stadium in Amsterdam. It is the most talked about transfer in the history of Dutch football. Indigenous Amsterdammer Johan Cruyff steps over from Ajax to their arch rival Feyenoord. They promtly become champion again after 10 years.

Good evening. Was not appropiate, was not meant to be, but it happened. Confusion still prevails as we look over the images. On 6 May 1984, Johan Cruyff celebrates the championship with Feyenoord on the balcony of the city hall in Rotterdam. He smokes a sigarettke and seems to have said "So so now this is the Coolsingel".

A year earlier, Cruyff left Amsterdam humiliated and looked for a contact with arch rival Feyenoord, after they held negotiations for about six months. With Cruijff Rotterdam wins the Eredivsie title and the national cup, an unprecedented success. But the folks in Amsterdam are not happy with departed. Andere Tijden Sport on the stigmatisation of Cruiff.

15 July 1983
I'll will make the announcement on behalf of the board of the foundation, we are very pleased that an agreement has been reached with Johan Cruyff, a one-year deal with Feyenoord. I would like to ask Johan to sign the agreement now, of which documents he has already revised.

Interview with Gerard Kerkum (Feyenoord chairman 1982-1989)
"We were very happy with it. And there was a very good thing"
"You understand how sensitive it might be in Amsterdam?"
"Well, no. I have no time has thought, I only thought about Feyenoord and Johan Cruyff."


Interview with an Feyenoord supporter in the tribunes:

Images showing a fed up crowd in the tribunes, billboard with expression "Cruijff ROT OP!" (Cruyff sod off!) "Bestuur en Optrotten" (Feyenoord board sod off!)

"You hold a season card every year?"
"Yes"
"Also in season 83 and 84?"
"Yes, I ordered and I had it in"
"And what happened then?"
"Hmmmm .... Well as soon as I heard the rumors that Johan Cruyff would come join us, I felt it was a bridge too far! I took the ticket and .... [gestures ... insinuating he had the season ticket torn to pieces] ... and dispatched it to the Feyenoord Stadium. "
"You dispatched the torn card?"
"Yes"

Next interview with a supporter
"Maybe he is a very nice and kind man after all, I do not know. But you wont make Yasser Arafat president of Israel don't you?"
"So you had a distrust in his true motivation, that he rather came in an act of honour"
"Yes, that was a retribution, and maybe he didn't do it for the money cause he wasn't in need of it at that particular time in his career. But I figure his motives are not sincere, to take revenge on the club that made you who you are now. Even if it is the arch rival club. To me that was such a low (emotional) moment and I cannot get over it"

@PuckVanHeel would you mind taking over from this point? Video minute 4:32. It is too long a video for me to spend much of my working time listening and translating, and I little time at the moment. Much appreciated.

 

Andere Tijden Sport is a documentary series of historical account on Dutch football. Presented by one of the most revered sport journalist and pundit in my country the reporter Tom Egbers. The series is known as the Zomerseries (Summer Series) and the episodes can be found here
http://www.npogeschiedenis.nl/nieuws/2013/mei/Andere-Tijden-Sport-presenteert-zomerserie.html

If you liked to watch the series and have those Dutch historical reports of Tom Egbers translated I will be delighted to do when I got time on my hands. Puck has also contributed a lot on translations in the past.

For now you can warm up a bit with the following episodes;

Samba in Eindhoven (a report on the best player in the history of PSV)
http://www.npogeschiedenis.nl/andere-tijden-sport/Afleveringen/Zomer-2013/Samba-in-Eindhoven.html

Ronaldo de Eindhovense Jaren (Ronaldo his year in Eindhove)
http://www.npo.nl/andere-tijden-sport/03-07-2011/VPWON_1151161

 

you are the man appreciate it a tonne.
I laughed when I read:..you don't make yassar arafat president of Israel...He can't of been that hated?
in the relevant time period(early eighties)he must've already been considered the best player in Dutch football history by a mile surely he shouldve at least been awarded the honour of being exempted from any rivalries between Dutch club football sides

 

I will contue translating the rest after work this evening. The video is very interesting and there is till a lot of insights in the rest of the footage.

In general it tries to capture how the Ajax fans felt about Cruyff stepping over to their Arch rivals Feyenoord. For most it was a stab in the back. They called him a traitor. Some wont forgive him even today. Football is a religion in the Netherlands. It is a national identity. If you would come to my country and mingel with the locals you will notice immediately that 1 out of 5 conversation topics in any pub or social gathering involves football. It's a way of life and a cultural tradition. So people take pride and make a great deal of things. Johan Cruyff signing with Feyenoord pissed off many. So much it warranted a documentary video to investigate the events that led to it and the consequences on his legacy.

Personally, I never had any issue with him signing Feyenoord. I think he did a good thing. To me football is just another sport. Some made it into a religion, others into a political dispute, I in turn, just enjoy a good game without the off-the-pitch distractions.

 

To say it's a religion is compared to other countries way too extreme. Surveys also show that. In UEFA's survey NL ranks below the mean.

 

Still, It's a cultural identity notwithstanding. Any popular historical chronological account by local news channels or printed media will always include football in their broadcast. Politics, economy, immigration, the royal family, and football always makes to top debates in our local news on a day to day bases.

In fact, my most vivid memories of my upbringing (80's/90's) do include football apart from other things. So yes, it is quite close to being an important identity of our society.

Dunno about you Puck but I lived in many countries besides growing up in NL (UK, USA, S.America, Spain) and by comparison we do hype a lot about football matters in a normal day to day conversation.

 

This is not the right thread but in a comparative sense I just don't agree with you (at least if we're talking about current situation), and the difference with UK or the 'passionate' South Americans are obvious. It's in the interest of UEFA that enthusiasm is the highest in the important markets (that bring about 90% of the revenues).

 

@PDG1978 @comme

Very good idea by PDG1978 to do it that way.

Working back and as a try:

2010 - 2015: Totti (b. 1976) ?
2005 - 2010: Giggs (b. 1973) ?
2000 - 2005: Maldini (b.1968) (Baggio, Bergkamp also very good as PDG suggested in the other thread + Zola)
1995 - 2000: Matthaus (b. 1961). Gheorghe Hagi (b. 1965) and Bergomi (b. 1963) also quite good.
1990 - 1995: Roger Milla (b. 1952?), McGrath (b. 1959), Baresi (b. 1960), Preudhomme (b. 1959)?

If a pick is overwhelmingly a goalkeeper then I also prefer to list an extra outfield player. Maybe also defenders have a slight advantage in this respect, especially in earlier eras.

 

Think Buffon can be added for 2010 - 2015 and Zanetti for 2005 - 2010.

Pirlo is of 19 May 1979, so then we're looking at what he did after 2013, 2014.

Maldini was at the age of 35 on the podium of the Ballon d'Or. That might have been overblown (in 2003; next to Nesta in his pomp) and others might have been overlooked too much (that interesting Periodic Table book calls DB10 "a great and often underrated player") but it sets him apart from almost all other veterans.

That book also mentions great veteran players (as a box figures could tick). It is probably not complete but I will have a look and type it down.

 

Here I have it;

That Periodic Table Book had these as the ones that might fit the box for "sustainables" (i.e. being still very good, possibly 'world class', around the mid 30s). Some of them are placed there, others were thought as a better fit into another box.

I don't think it is complete but I tend to agree with most of the inclusions, and I think I'll fit all of them somewhere. Input is appreciated, esp. about the ones with question marks (maybe some have read textual evidence).

(question mark is not because I disagree, there's none I tend to disagree with, but because I'm not sure or lack of info/knowledge)

Luis Monti (b. 1901) ?
Sindelar (b. 1903) ?
Meazza (b. 1910)
Leonidas (b. 1913)
Matthews (b. 1915)
Walter (b. 1920)
Liedholm (b. 1922)
B. Wright (b. 1924)
Nilton Santos (b. 1925)
Blanchflower (b. 1926)
Di Stefano (b. 1926)
Puskas (b. 1927)
Djalma Santos (b. 1929) ?
Yashin (b. 1929)
Facchetti (b. 1942)
Cruijff (b. 1947)
Shilton (b. 1949)
A. Mühren (b. 1951)
Milla (b. 1952)
Matthaus (b. 1961)
P. Schmeichel (b. 1963)
M. Laudrup (b. 1964)
Baggio (b. 1967)
P. Maldini (b. 1968)
Bergkamp (b. 1969)
Giggs (b. 1973)


His book has also an entry for Bernd Schuster (b. 22 December 1959) but he isn't discussed in those terms as a veteran player. Maybe he could fit too but at the same time I'm not so certain that I say that Holt is categorically wrong. Schuster was ranked 'international class' by kicker in the summer of 1994 and winter of 1994-95 as an 'offensive midfielder'. 5 goals (1PK) and 13 assists in 1993-94; 2 goals and 4 assists in 1994-95.

Because this period might be relatively thin in terms of veterans (for central midfielders and more advanced positions) he could be in.

I put the defensive players in grey and goalkeepers in boldface. I greyed Matthaus because after ~1993 he was a sweeper. Blanchflower is a borderline case but eventually decided against greying him.

So I think about putting those somewhere + Zannetti + Buffon etc.

@PDG1978