Best 16-18 year old players ever

The point is though that Mbappe is not exactly a tap in meastro and CR7 (current version) clone. As was boasted. Adama Traore scored exactly 0 goals past season.

Furthermore, competition and opposition does matter. Chiellini, Nesta etc. frequently provoked opposition with "but against us Italians [with current rules] you cannot dribble past four and finish". So far that has proven to be correct for any player against them. Any player.

http://www.goal.com/en/news/1716/ch...thered-be-no-wondergoal-for-god-like-messi-in

Either way, with words as 'retarded' used I will pass.

 

What does goals have to do with dribbling stats? You pulled out Mbappe's dribbling stats in UCL in ONLY 9 GAMES (very, very, very, very, very, very, very small sample of games) to impress me or whatever, then i showed you that stats clearly can be misleading therefore they are irrelevant. I am not arguing Traore is better than Messi or Mbappe..

If Baggio managed to score wonder goals from time to time in allegdely tougher era of Serie A, Messi would have as well. It has been done by players in Serie A before, it would have been done again if Messi played there. How frequently? No one will ever know that so Chiellini's words mean nothing. It can be argued either way.
But how is that relevant to Mbappe? Are you trying to say French league is better defensively than la liga?

 

He is definitely capable of dribbling past italian defenses, it would be just a question on how long it would take for Messi to mesmerize them.

 

If I have to guess he's aged 17 - 18.5 not as good as either R9 and LM10 but I'm adamant that you can only use what's there until the same age. There's a lot on this in Michael Calvin's recent book, including passages on youthful talent (at Sporting CP, Barcelona and other places) who were quite likely just as good as CR7 and LM10, just as enchanting on youtube films, but became journeymen in backwaters and/or trafficked youth commodity.

Zinedine Zidane - with his technique - turned out to be better than a whole host of under-23 players. There's a lot that can happen, hell, even the television ratings and viewership are under pressure lately (not only of football/EPL but also NFL, MLB, NBA regular season - example in link). At youth level R9 and LM10 certainly looked more dominant, faster, stronger without ball. The hand-eye coordination look in both cases a bit more refined, but then again that's a well proven beneficial immediate side effect of hgh waivers and above all there's definitely a lot more money and organization nowadays at the youth levels. All the trafficking, unstable merry-go-round and politics surrounding underage players also goes hand in hand with better organization and staffing at the places where youthful athletic 'talent' is hoarded (sometimes creativity stiffling organization).

For R9 we do have even a larger body of work than Mbappe, and the Brasileiro pre-1995 was markedly stronger than post-1995. And there are also things as him playing against Boca Juniors in the Libertadores. Not all games are shining gold (or so you can say) but there's a body of work by Ronaldo of a considerable level until he turned 19 (at the age of 19 there's half a year where he is out injured). He missed most of the 1995CA because of injury but there are other games such as him playing against England. Yes, the sample size of 9 Champions League games by Mbappe is small, but consider then that LM10 had only completed - and I'm not making this up - three games for Barcelona until the age of 18 and 7 months. Indeed, one of the things Rijkaard has often been given credit for is that he phased in Iniesta and Messi so smoothly, gradually and well over the course of four years. Unlike a Michael Owen (case can be made for R9 too, to an extent) who was rushed, played so many minutes that his technical deficiencies didn't get fixed*, and never recovered from fatigue and injury.

I'd say that R9 has the larger body of work so far (the 18th year of Mbappe is not over yet), but there's an argument possible Mbappe has done it at higher and more meaningful levels (counter-arguments possible as well).

*) Alex Ferguson said at the time, and repeated this many years later: "There was no opportunity by then to take him aside and work on him from a technical point of view."

 

and how did you justify your claim that Mbappe is 2B) on ALL TIME LIST with the text?

What separates Messi, Ronaldo, Maradona, Pele, Cristiano and other greats from a random talented player is that they keep improving rapidly in spite the fact that they are so freakishly talented, so truely only way to understand how talented Mbappe is atm is to wait and see how great he will become so then we can go back and say, "Yup, this 2017 season was a fluke" or "Yup, it was a superstar in making, he had it in him all along."
9 games in ucl and 15 goals in French league is too small sample to bet on Mbappe's future with any certainty. And don't tell me you would, because you wouldn't bet, it's the risk nobody would take.

 

Also, as i said, the stage at which you do it makes no difference when the sample is so small. James Rodriguez had one of the best World cup performances in modern football, it still doesn't make him one of the best in the world, let alone in history, which you are so easy to do in Mbappe case.

 

Uwe Seeler

 

The thread title says: "
Best 16-18 year old players ever
"
My interpretation of that is: the best players who were actually the best at the age (or the most talented), not players who got recognized by media the most.. i think my interpretation is worth having a thread.

Then the very point of this thread is meaningless because it brings a false glory to players, among this forum, that already got enough of the false glory

 

Probably more in the "honourable mentions" section than competing at the top of the list, but here's a couple more.

Paul McStay made his Celtic debut a couple of months after his 17th birthday and played every league game in the season he turned 18.

Norman Whiteside was a regular for Man Utd and played at the 1982 World Cup at 17.

 

It brings the false glory in the sense that people like to misunderstand and take the things out of the context.. Being recognized by media and starting your career earlier than an average player doesn't necessary mean you are better than the one who hasn't been recognized, that's why i argued against Mbappe being put in comparison with R9 [and Messi] in first place.

 

Renzo De Vecchi
Made his debut at 15 years old and next year won his first cap with Italy being a regular until his last cap 15 years after.

 

It would seem that Florian Albert, and Giussepe Meazza were both in the 'wonderkid' category and making a big mark immediately. Maybe better calls as 18 year olds rather than 17 though.

 

I am not sure anybody mentioned him, but Freddy Adu showed incredible amount of potential in under 20 WC back ni 2007 just turning 18.

Altidore and Lukaku as well.

 

No it wasn't. We had no idea if he was simply just an early developer or maybe hit a purple patch.

Take recent examples such as Wayne Rooney and Michael Owen. They were already established players at a major club, just like Mbappe, at around the same age, scoring double digit goals. They also had a great international tournament under their belt as well (Rooney at EURO04 and Owen at WC98.) If Mbappe can do well at the World Cup this year, then we can legitimately make the claim you did, and start exploring if he's closer to someone like Ronaldo at that age.

 

I still don't buy it.. Exceptional talent? Definitely.
An all time talent? still don't buy it.

The guy went from playing for top 3 attacking teams in the world in Monaco last season. that was completely independent of his contribution in French league (and that's provable). to playing along side Neymar, Cavani, Draxler, Di Maria, in the most exciting project since Manchester City in 2011... unlike all other young talents in history, he has the easiest circumsatnces at the begining of his career, hence, perhapse, why he seems so good at the young age. I still doubt him in spite him having clearly excpetional talents, like running and dribbling with the ball at full speed, clever off the ball movements, etc.

And get your facts straight. Nobody, except PSG, was ready to pay the amount of money Monaco was looking for.

 

1. It's just okay. When team plays great, individual plays great. That's follow up on that another discussion we are having in other thread. Monaco was top 3 attacking team last season, so of course he is going to look good.

2. So bench players never make a contribution? I am talking about firepower PSG has in overal. Two players like that on the bench tells you quality of the team. He went from easy situation in Monaco to even easier in PSG. And before you say it, Mbappe is first team ahead of them because he is a brand now, marketing stuff. You don't buy player for a 180 milions and place him on the bench. Plus, they are building for the future.

3. He is 18, nobody puts a pressure on 18 years old player because you don't criticize a young player. Pressure is soley on Neymar to perform who is hitting his prime. Mbappe even in that segment has a room for errors and bad games.

4. 100 milions is not a big number anymore.

This is the deal. Mbappe hugely benefits from the fact that he plays in shitty French league while featuring in two of the best attacking teams. If your team is great offenisvely, what makes you think that a single offensive player won't excell in such system?
Put him in West Ham and let's see how well he can play weekly. Or if you think i gave too extreme example, put him in defensive minded Atletico Madrid, and let's see his talent then. It would be quite different story, wouldn't it? Even if they did get far in UCL, he wouldn't contribute as much cuze of playing style.
I am saying that circumstances couldn't be better for him at the moment. Playing in, domestically, the most dominant, offensively amazing, team while playing against obviously shitty teams. Nobody in history got that privilege, try to open your mind just a little bit.

 

Only Messi played because he was the only one roughly in the similar circmustances like Mbappe to shine, which is my whole point.

The name of the thread should be: "Most influential 16-18 year old players ever", cuze what you do at that age has a lot to do with the way your career started and the standing of a team that you play in, rather than who is actually the best of them.
It's not the same, put Cristiano in that Monaco team at the age of 18, and he will shine 10x brighter than he actually did in his career at that age due to easier circumstances to shine in (great offensive team, easier league, etc.)
The context matters so i am still skeptical about Mbappe, although, the way he has been treated so far by teams, is great for youngsters and it will definitely play a role in his later career.

 

That's similar case to that of a people evaluating players in winning teams higher despite not individually performing better than others. It's the same thing, but it's even more magnified due to the fact that not all players are discovered by that age. Look at Kimmich for example, such a talented passer, and up until 2015 (20 year old), he was completely unkown to the world.
And it's not like that up till 2015 he was average passer and that that year he took it levels beyond so got discovered, he had that talent all along, even at the age of 13, 14, but he wasn't known then, which is why it's very stupid, imo, to talk about "the best" 16-18 year old players ever or make a conclusion on who is the best based on two or three separated seasons, because as we all know, individual peformance, and the way people percieve it, depends a lot on the way your team performs, so what happens when you are 17, but your team is in awful form? ..... You don't get enough praises.

I am not sure i said this in this thread, but here is some interesting fact that might make you think a bit more about Mbappe's case:
Last season in ligue one, Monaco scored 107 goas. Mbappe scored 15 and made another 8.If you take those 23 goals from Monaco's tally, they are still the team that scored the most goals in ligue one that season. PSG scored 83 goals.
That only proves my point that Mbappe played in very healthy offensive circumstances that could only make him look better than he is. He did made some amazing stuffs for his age, but they are all done in almost perfect circumstances for a young player. Hardly anyone in history had such an opportunity.
I found more impressive the fact that Rashford made a huge immidiate impact in stuggling Manchester side, than Mbappe scoring those ucl goals. You have to put it in the context.