Best 11 Right Now

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by LuckofLichaj, Oct 19, 2018.

  1. gogorath

    gogorath Member

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Oh, now the adjustments aren't halftime, but are at the 20 minute mark? Okay.

    The reality is that the team was winning the game -- and should have won. A couple of things happened. The first one wasn't some outcoaching -- it was that Jozy Alitdore ran out of gas way too early.

    Second, Tata made some adjustments that Gregg didn't counter.

    But let's stop rewriting the story to paint Berhalter as some moron.

    We had the better chances. We really did. If Pulisic and Altidore bury those chances like they should have, we win.

    If Jozy could play hard for more than thirty minutes, we win.

    If the ref calls one of two red cards, we win. Hell, if he just does anything to stop the ridiculous play going on, it changes the game.

    But more importantly than that, we really weren't outclassed. Only in the minds of people who desperately want it to be true.
     
  2. gogorath

    gogorath Member

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I think he's been good tactically in game in most games. I agree that this game he didn't solve what Tata threw at him.

    I'm not wholly evaluating him on any single game.
     
  3. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    US had five prime chances on goal.

    Altidore blew the early chance.
    Pulisic got stoned by the keeper.
    With the keeper out of goal, Arriola failed to put the shot on goal.
    Morris's header was cleared off the line.
    Roldan's shot on frame was blocked.

    Can't blame the coach for that.

    He can be blamed for that dysfunctional Bradley-McKennie central midfield, which had gotten carved open time and time again. Mexico created wave of dangerous movements; if they had brought their big boys this game could've gotten ugly.

    Tim Ream and Jordan Morris were likewise poor choices for this tournament.
     
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  4. gogorath

    gogorath Member

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Agree. I do think you have to give the team, and the coach, credit for that. We should have converted at least one and maybe two of those chances.

    Agree. Let's see how he reacts. He absolutely boxed himself in with this roster and how people prepared. Now he has some time to fix things.

    Eh. I don't think they had that many dangerous chances. As much as we lost the midfield, our defense was solid.

    Mexico is more talented than us. I don't know if it is so much that it would have gotten ugly, but I'm also not expecting the coach to a) overcome a massive talent gap all the time and b) play the same way against a team that had Vela and Lozano on the wing instead of Antuna.

    Ream was a conservative choice and I don't necessarily think it was the right one. I am not as confident in the other options as other people are.

    Morris .. he played poorly. I've seen some good things from him this year so I was disappointed.

    I don't love some of the choices in roster. Zardes being the largest issue.

    But I also think that the number of clearly bad choices is lower than people think simply because I don't think the pool is very good at all.

    We were missing Adams, Brooks, Yedlin, Holmes and Lleget to injury. All better choices than Lewis, Mihailovic, Omar, etc. And while I still would have brought Sargent, he was a victim of that as well.

    It doesn't mean there weren't misses -- but a lot of what we are talking about is in the margins.

    And the few that aren't ... well, we'll see.
     
  5. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    I think down a goal with 12 minutes left, Robinson gives you a chance subbing in for Ream and Lovitz doesn't. That is what tournament roster construction is about. If you have an idea of getting width from your fullback when behind, bring the best player for that situation.
     
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  6. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Haha, well, why are you so alone on this island? Why do such good analysts like TSS and Scuffed see it differently than you? Why do cheerleaders like the MLSoccer crew see it differently?

    We had some chances early. But to suggest we controlled the game is nuts. We had a higher xG because Altidore had a very good chance that he completely fluffed. But the game probably ends 2-1 then. We were lucky it didn't end 2-0 or 3-0.

    The only silver lining of this game was that it was entertaining, the team competed hard, and it should make Gregg rethink his defensive system to something better.
     
  7. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Again, whatever, you seem to be alone in the view point that we outplayed Mexico for anything more than 15-20 minutes. I doubt I will change your opinion.

    If, if, if...we lost and were outplayed for a large stretch. We were outplayed because our defensive system was exposed. This is good, better now than in the Hex.

    Look up the xG on the Jimenez miss, unmarked, in our 6 yard box. You won't find it, as it doesn't get scored. It was an easier chance than Altidore's chance; which you are giving us the game if he scores.
     
  8. gogorath

    gogorath Member

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    I never suggested we controlled the game. Why does everyone who is so anti-Berhalter feel the need to create strawmen over and over?

    I said we had better chances. I will stand by that. I believe TSS said as much. I haven't listened to Scuffed or Club and Country yet.

    It wasn't just Altidore. It was Pulisic one on one with the keeper. It was a header cleared off the line. It was Arriola's admittedly lucky chance.

    For all that Mexico absolutely controlled the game in the second half, they really didn't generate a bunch of chances. People bitched about how Berhalter's system generated a bunch of crosses and other wing play in earlier matches as toothless, but then laud Mexico when it was basically the same. They had a couple of good chances but basically they had a shot that hit the bar and went in. We had two one on ones that our players failed to execute.

    I don't think we controlled the game or even outplayed Mexico. But I do think a whole bunch of you had your minds made up LONG before this game. It's pretty evident from posts before and after.

    We didn't get whupped or beat badly. They won possessions, we had better shots. We lost, and perhaps that's the fair outcome, but it wasn't this epic outplaying that everyone is trying to paint.

    First, we weren't going to make it out of the group. Then, we wouldn't win the group. Then, we wouldn't beat Jamaica. Now that we had a fairly even match against Mexico, it's a sudden disaster.
     
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  9. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Why don't you just stick to letting us know your opinion and not try and read my mind.

    I'm not Anti-anyone. I do think GB picked a poor roster and it showed. I do think Mexico exposed problems with the way GB set the team up. I think Jamaica and Curacao and Venezuela did too. He changed a bit from those games and changed personnel. I'm sure he will change tactics based on this game. I doubt GB's takeaway is that we should have finished our chances and everything is great.

    It was an intense and fun game. But I think you are just not seeing, or refuse to admit not seeing, the absolute danger that Mexico was creating and wasting.

    But, we will see if GB changes anything. I guess for you, nothing should change.
     
  10. laxcoach

    laxcoach Member+

    Borussia Dortmund
    United States
    Jul 29, 2017
    Good lord. Wanting a decent team to represent the US isn't hating Berhalter. He can't help it his brother and other MLS cronies handed him the gig and I'm sure he's trying but his career winning % is all we needed to know coming in and his roster selection cemented in my mind that this cycle is going to suck and suck hard.

    Egg may be a good dood to have a beer with, like W was as president of the USA. But both are Peter Principled to the max and in way over their heads.
     
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  11. gogorath

    gogorath Member

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Why don't you stop putting words into my mouth?

    I'm not quite sure why you are offended at anit-Berhalter. Aren't you? Wouldn't you fire him right now if you had the chance?
     
  12. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    I posted this in another thread earlier today. It doesnt include the duds like Corey Baird who didnt make the GC roster, but it is pretty startling....

    So Berhalter needed a tournament to get to the best line up with that roster. The top 6 players of that line up were Steffen, Long, Miazga, Mckennie, Pulisic, and Altidore. The weak links were Ream, Cannon, Bradley, Arriola, and Morris. The bench consisted of Tyler Boyd and bunch of average MLS players. When we needed a sub against Mexico, the only player I wanted to come on was Boyd. I dont think any of the MLS players should make a roster of our best 23 players.

    We have played 12 games this year. That makes 11,880 minutes in total. Approximately one third of those minutes went to those 9 field players who even Berhalter didnt want to play by the end of that tournament.

    Here are the nine players that we wasted a ton of minutes on this year...

    Name.................. G/Min/% of possible minutes
    Zardes.............. 11/697/65%
    Roldan.............. 10/609/56%
    Lima................... 7/565/52%
    Zimmerman....... 6/495/46%
    Trapp.................. 8/477/44%
    Lovitz.................. 8/335/31%
    Mihailovic........... 5/321/30%
    Gonzo................. 4/271/25%
    Lewis.................. 5/128/12%

    Which ones are the most egregious? I cant choose. Zardes and Lewis make me the least angry.
     
  13. gogorath

    gogorath Member

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    Are you counting the cupcake games?

    I don't think Lima or Zimmerman are a big issue for me. They both played well and were overtaken rather than failed, IMO.

    Zardes bothers me the most, actually.
     
  14. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    Yes, it includes all games. I can see a reason to exclude but dont have time now.

    I think both would be way in over their heads against decent competition. Looking ok against Guyana, Trinidad, and Guyana doesnt say much.

    I am sure I could get plenty bothered about Zardes if I thought about it. Come to think of it Lewis is annoying too as better u23 players were excluded and those who talk about first team minutes should definitely take issue with him.
     
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  15. laxcoach

    laxcoach Member+

    Borussia Dortmund
    United States
    Jul 29, 2017
    God forbid we ever see anyone on this list in a US kit again. It will be hard to keep going as a fan if I do.
     
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  16. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Mexico had the US defense scrambling in the second half. Something eventually was likely to fall.

    I don't believe Mexico is more talented. Our prime age group is, however, weak.

    Ream was a poor choice for LB. His lateral movement is weak. He and Bradley made for a sieve.

    Zardes did not start in the final. When he came on, he was competent. He was not on when Mexico scored. He had 3 goals for tournament. I don't get the unhealthy obsession with the man, honestly.

    Morris missed all of last season, due to a major knee injury. He was not performing well with his club, either. He should not have been brought in.

    The pool was good enough to win this. 3G poorly constructed the team. McKennie is not a disciplined midfielder. He needed to be partnered by someone other than Michael Bradley. McKennie could also have played as an AM/CM. Arriola should not have had to cover for the dysfunctional midfield and for Ream.

    Lewis, Mihailovic, and Omar did not start in the final.
     
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  17. truefan420

    truefan420 Member+

    May 30, 2010
    oakland
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Did you notice where I didn’t mention either of those players and specifically pointed to Lovitz.

    Also if the manager is more concerned about winning than selling tickets why were several of the players called in? They aren’t good enough or better than others not called. Gregg just knows them better cause he gets to spend a month with them in January during non FIFA dates or roomed with them during his playing days. Robinson as an attacking change of pace LB would have been far far far more useful during this tournament than Lovitz as a 6th CB.
     
  18. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    I don’t recall any specific quotes where the coach said that there were people who wouldn’t be there in 2022 and were there for leadership. I remember him saying no promises were offered to Bradley but that’s not what you’ve said. Can you please provide a link?
     
  19. Excellency

    Excellency Member+

    Nov 4, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    The lovitz/ream selection sewed up defense on the left side where Egg knew he had offense in Arriola and, if needed, Pulisic, Lewis, Morris, Boyd.

    I don't see how one can criticize Egg for leaving Antonee out of the seleciton.

    Had Berhalter used Sargent late in each of the preliminary games - 5/10/15 mins. - his smart sub v. Mejico would have been Roldan for Morris and Sargent for Jozy or even Cannon if Zardes sub had already been made.

    Egg knew Jozy was laboring with tightness/hammy issues. That's exactly the situation Klinsmann faced in Rio. Why Egg didn't bring Sargent under those circumstances is puzzling.
     
  20. truefan420

    truefan420 Member+

    May 30, 2010
    oakland
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The issue isn’t specifically AR... it’s roster construction. He didn’t bring a player to provide width and attack from the LB spot if needed. They talked about how bringing Lovitz on was because he’s going to get forward better than Ream... ok maybe but he’s still horrible at it. Hell I’d have been more ok with Lima coming on there but 3G seem to prefer a lefty there. If we played a traditional 3 backline I get 6 CBs but we don’t play that. We play a hybrid version. He’d have been smarter to bring a LB/LWB for situational need vs a 6th CB who isn’t good and can play LB MLS level barely.

    The players you named aren’t defenders getting forward their wingers. If he had brought one of them on or moved Arriola to LB and brought on an attacker I’d still think he should have constructed the roster better but wouldn’t harp on it as much. The fact that we were down 1 and he brings on Lovitz for Ream is a massive problem and it’s got nothing to do with the talent level of our players. It’s about poor roster construction and tactical decisions by 3G.
     
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  21. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    If our pool isn’t very good, why in the world would we institute a possession based system that requires talent?

    You’ve mentioned that it’s aspirational so let me ask the question: how does this aspiration help?

    1. Does it make our existing pool (which you’ve labeled as not “very good”) better in the short term?

    2. Doesn’t instituting a system beyond our talent level make us more likely to lose in the short-term?

    3. How does lowering our odds of winning in the short-term make future generations better? What exactly do we think happens?
     
  22. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Fire him? He just got there. I'm anti- complacency; we all should be This team is coming from a bad place. GB has done some questionable things already with his player selection. He shot par on the GC.

    I can want him to look at different players, give others the same chance he gave his camp cupcakers, and never call Omar again, but that is a long way from firing him.
     
  23. gogorath

    gogorath Member

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    https://www.espn.com/soccer/club/un...gold-cup-and-moving-on-from-world-cup-failure

    ESPN: How are you trying to strike a balance between the present and the future in terms of personnel, tactics, what you're teaching the guys.

    GB: I think that in terms of personnel, it's important to have guys who have been around the national team. I think that's important to guide some of the younger players. We do have some young players that haven't been around the national team for a long time but part of it in our head is projecting out to 2022. Can they be available for 2022?

    What we don't want is to have too many players that we don't think will be around in 2022. That's what we're aware of. That's on our mind. For the Gold Cup roster, it was just thinking about that. How many do we have that have no chance of being there in 2022? That number we want to keep small.

    ESPN: But there are some guys here who won't be around in 2022?

    GB: Potentially there are some guys who won't, yeah.
     
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  24. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Thanks for the quote but that’s not the same as saying “they won’t be there for 2022 and are adding leadership today”.

    He says he wants to keep the number of players who won’t be there is 2022 small but doesn’t say if there are any and when pressed says “potentially”.

    Wrt Bradley, he clearly left the door open but hasn’t “offered any promises” IIRC.
     
  25. gogorath

    gogorath Member

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    In some ways, yes. I think the concepts and elements they are learning together will make the team more dangerous when it has possession. I'm not even talking about when the team has 70% possession -- even when we only have 30% possession, the team will have more options and be more dangerous when we have the ball.

    Will an insistence on playing out of the back likely hurt us at times in the short term in terms of absolute wins and losses? Sure.

    But we've seen the team play direct plenty as well, and I don't think it is a hard adjustment to make to do that if it truly fails over the next few years.

    The only real opportunity cost I truly see here is where focus could be better spent elsewhere, which I suppose would be on the press. But if we can accomplish both -- and I think it is possible to both have a cohesive press and defense AND improve on possession play, then why not?

    EDIT: I also think the young players coming up are more skilled and more aligned with the style of play, though still American in skillset.

    Slavish adherence probably would, as I said above. Learning it and using it when applicable likely improves the team in the short term.

    In other words, yes, I can see what you mean but I don't think the effect is nearly as big as you think.

    I may be the only one, but over the Gold Cup and even in the Mexico game, I saw improvements on how the team played that I liked. I did not think the overall performance against Mexico was great by any means, but that doesn't mean that some of the actions weren't positive.

    I think we're all agreed that the biggest issue was losing in the midfield. Attempting to play possession doesn't really cause that -- in fact, it should have helped it.

    I know you would point to possession play = Bradley = weak midfield and you may be right. I'd argue that we need more bodies with or without Bradley.

    I don't think it significantly lowers our odds in the short term. We didn't win the Gold Cup, but we performed above everyone's expectations here and better than most Gold Cups in history. That isn't the end state that we want, but given that we're trying to implement a new style of play, I find it hard to slam the team for it.

    I think the team gets better. I think they learn how to play with each other. I think players who want spots work on skills in their free time. I think younger players start to understand what they need to do to make a youth national team or the senior team. That's what attempting to establish a style of play up and down the ladder accomplishes.

    I don't think slavish adherence would be smart ... but I'm not seeing that. I'm also not seeing that more direct play wins us that game against Mexico but maybe I'm missing something.

    If we're looking at why we didn't win the Gold Cup, I would put style of play well below lots of other causes: Overall Pool Quality; Injuries; Roster Selection; Player execution and even in game tactics over general style of play.

    I've said this before, but I think it still holds: we're still looking to press, we're still looking to counter. If we want to abandon the possession portion of the gameplan, it won't be hard.

    Standard formation press and counter isn't something that's going to be foreign to most of these guys. We don't need to panic and drop things right away.
     
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