Berhalter

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Pragidealist, Oct 12, 2018.

  1. Pragidealist

    Pragidealist Member+

    Mar 3, 2010
    JK was the opposite. He changed systems every time he got them together. He’s the argument against being too flexible.

    I agree - there are arguments for being tactically flexible for sure over being dogmatic
     
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  2. ttrevett

    ttrevett Member+

    Apr 2, 2002
    Atlanta, GA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, it't the whole nature/nurture debate that is unwinnable, but I think there is so much more than just hard work that allows players to attain the level that they reach. Players like Kante ALSO work harder than everyone else, but that just makes them the best of an already superlative group of players.
     
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  3. Eleven Bravo

    Eleven Bravo Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    Jul 3, 2004
    SC
    Club:
    Atlanta Silverbacks
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    In an ideal world, I’d say the coach stick to maybe 2 or 3 formations, over the course of a cycle.

    In my world, the 352/532, 442, and 433. The 442 would be my oh shit, we’re in trouble, let’s go with something familiar and hope it clicks formation. The 433 would be what I’d probably use often against bunkering teams. But the 352/532 would be most preferred line up given that it would maximize our strengths and limit our weaknesses.

    Either way, in year one, it’s okay to experiment some. But yes, we do want to build familiarity and chemistry so that 3 years down the road, we aren’t still asking ourselves, what the hell do we do next?
     
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  4. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree. i think it would be weird if berhalter forced the 4-2-3-1 onto the field every USMNT game.

    for one, the SUMNT player pool has a few weak spots in some of those positions. the middle of the 3 line....lee nguyen is the only player i can currently see playing there...down the line there are a bunch of options who will hopefully develop. also same for dangerous wingers. 1 forward doesnt excite me, either. and the attacking fullbacks are a big question mark. even players like yedlin leave a lot to be desired from an attacking standpoint. all the fullbacks are either good attacker or decent defenders and never both...so that's an issue. also, i think the team needs the cms to be able to get into the attack...and that doesn ssem to be what ggg wants.

    Two, i wonder how much of a homer he will be for "his guys" ...it's gonna be depressing if he forces trapp, zardes, etc on SUMNT.

    three, it's gonna be SO EASY for opponents to scout and neutralize a predictable system played by SUMNT. On the one hand, it makes sense for the players to know their roles and know their playing system inside-out...but it will be a double edged-sword if opponents do as well. GGG will need at least a couple "backup formations" just to throw opponents off from time-to-time.

    four, i think finding the strenths of your pool and then developing a system from that is a way better way to go about it. instead of trying to fit your pool into your system...especially when it is highly questionable whether the pool contains the necessary components.
     
  5. Pragidealist

    Pragidealist Member+

    Mar 3, 2010
    Maybe - not all 4231’s are the same. The nuance is in the detailed instructions to the players. Does the dm drop back into the line or cover the wing? Do the cams cut in or stay wide? Does the central cam get forward more as a cf or stay central and create?

    Do you want to possess and combine in the middle or mostly bomb down the wing and cross?

    All of these things are adjustable and then ppl start to debate whether we’re playing a 352 or a 433 or if we go with two interchangeable cms - is it really a straight forward 442 with a double pivot.

    The nuance creates the distinction and nuance can be tweaked game to game .. as long as there are some staples.

    Most coaches say “systems are over rated” and that’s why. It’s all in he details
     
  6. Lance90

    Lance90 Member

    Feb 7, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    Exactly, but that doesn't make systems overrated. Systems are crucial for getting players to understand what to do and how to play within the context of the team.

    Your quote at the end simply means that thinking that shorthand labels like 4-4-2, 3-5-2, and 4-2-3-1 capture all of the nuances and tactics involved in a system is overrated. I would agree.

    So those trying to paint Berhalter as some rigid coach always wedded to a 4-2-3-1 are being rather ridiculous.
     
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  7. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    don't forget about Manneh, too....everyone is super down on him at the moment. but he had 4 goals 3 assists in 800+ minutes last year for crew....meanwhile, his DP replacement - or the player chosen over him, pedro santos - has 1 goal 9 assists in 2700+ minutes for columbus....

    My personal take is that a lot of MLS coaches/clubs are vindictive when they know a player will try and leave MLS...Manneh shouldve been starting for Columbus when he was there, imo...especially if it was between him and santos for playing time.
     
  8. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Berhalter is the Sporting Director and Coach. Berhalter is the one making those decisions.
     
  9. puttputtfc

    puttputtfc Member+

    Sep 7, 1999
    Manneh was offered an extension by the Crew but wanted to play overseas. There is some skill with Manneh but there is a tendency to be lazy as well.
     
  10. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    Barcelona, Spain
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    i just see it across MLS....a lot of clubs play hardball with domestic players who won't sign extensions. agudelo isn't playing for NE cuz he's gone. Nguyen asked for a trade and then didn't play under friedel...he's clearly still good. DC benched Hamid when a Bundesliga scout flew in last year etc etc....

    and i wanted to lump him in with the Gall, Meram, Finley group....

    players shouldnt be benched for not signing extensions, imo. it's bad practice.

    its also really annoying when people then turn around and assume a lack of playing time is about the player's level when its not...like if he was good enough he'd be playing etc....
     
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  11. dougtee

    dougtee Member+

    Feb 7, 2007
    is berhalter less likely to take the job with the crew staying in columbus?
     
  12. Cannons

    Cannons Member+

    May 16, 2005
    I have a huge sinking feeling in my stomach thinking of Berhalter as the head coach. I think there are too many attachments to current players and too much loyalty to current Crew players. Can anybody else see Zardes and Trapp being a big part of the mix? Bradley and Jozy hanging around? I'm thinking it will be like having Klinsmann back again and am depressed. I had hoped for a total outsider to be selected to avoid the problems I have just listed and to just break the links to past players. Now....I just dont know what to expect? ....

    I can see no other reason for friggin Josh Wolf to be on that bench last night other than Berhalter is coming. What the Hell else can Wolff possible do? Give tips to Sargent? or Wood? Both are already better than he ever was. Keep thinking of the Who song, "Won't get fooled again" and think we all are bout to "meet the new boss."
     
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  13. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    On the first two...in the short run, Trapp might get minutes. By the time it matters, the 2020 qualifiers, he either will be good enough (which would be a happy surprise for me) or he won't and Adams and McKennie and others will get all the minutes.

    As for Zardes...I understand why he is a whipping boy, but if you look at his stats, he gets some goals and assists. I expect that Weah, Pulisic, and Sarge will make him irrelevant. But I think his record should get some respect.

    I don't see Bradley and Jozy as comparable as players. As symbols, sure, but I'd rather have a manager trying to win than a manager trying to make stupid symbolic points. Anyway, to more directly assess your post...what makes you think Bradley will hang around? Do you have any reason, based on Gregg's record, that he'll do that? Because in MLS, Gregg's record has been kind of the opposite. Ethan Finlay is no longer in Columbus.

    Jozy is too good of a player, even now, to lump in with the other 3.
     
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  14. Cannons

    Cannons Member+

    May 16, 2005
    I guess I had hoped for a foreign coach that would have no biases, opinions on anybody. Kind of like a blind taste testing. I wanted to make every player on the roster win his position every game. History, experience not the primary qualification for inclusion. Weve wasted a year now by not selecting a new coach. Some are saying Dave S should finish out the year. I am not one of those. I want the new coach now and lets see what he brings. This is the time to start a massive youth movement and to cut loose players that are not playing up to speed. We have England and Italy coming up. I want the new coach and new players to play those games. There is NO POINT in capping players we already have already seen for years. Give the time to players that fit into the new game plan. The best USA team Ive seen in a long time played even with France pre WC. Thats where we should be spending our time.

    If its a lone forward in our new formation... I am not a Jozy fan. He doesnt have the foot skill to create a shot. Wood isn't that good in that either. And no matter what we play... we need a play maker in the middle behind that forward. I havent seen that guy in the current crop and its NOT BRADLEY either
     
  15. USA-Zebuel

    USA-Zebuel Member+

    Mar 26, 2013
    Club:
    Colón de Santa Fe
    I was reading this in a conference hall for some health and safety training during a break and this song was playing on the hallway speakers.
     
  16. ceezmad

    ceezmad Member+

    Mar 4, 2010
    Chicago
    Club:
    Chicago Red Stars
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I vote to rename this thread the Berhalter career death watch.
     
  17. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Of course that is exactly what Klinsmann did. He started with a 4-2-3-1 with Deuce in the hole. He then switched to a 4-3-2-1 XTree before WCQ Group to take advantage of Deuce and Donovan behind Altidore with a strong trio of Jones, Bradley, and Edu bossing the midfield. When LD was again out with nagging "injuries" we switched back to a 4-2-3-1. Pre Hex we switched back to the XTree with the idea that LD would be back. When LD decided to quit soccer and go to Cambodia we went back to the 4-2-3-1 and played that formation until pre-WC2014 when we switched to the 4-3-1-2 diamond to move an older Deuce closer to goal as a striker partnered with Altidore.

    Klinsmann did not have a tactical religion, instead he believed in "difference makers" his so called spine (Howard, Bradley, Jones, Dempsey, Altidore) and chose formations that got the spine in positions where they could make the biggest difference. 4-2-3-1, 4-3-2-1, 4-3-1-2

    Bob Bradley was the exact opposite. BB wanted to play a precise, rigid, 4-2-2-2 contain and counter system and chose pieces that maximized that system. Arena was somewhere in between. Arena believed in players over system but also believed in a conservative, safety-first, defensive line.

    My preference is a coach who will design a system around our new generation of difference makers (Steffen, Adams, McKennie, Pulisic, ... ). That is not Berhalter going by his past history.
     
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  18. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    I'd say Bob's system was built around Dempsey, Donovan, and the limited supporting players.
     
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  19. Pragidealist

    Pragidealist Member+

    Mar 3, 2010
    That’d be my take too.
     
  20. skim172

    skim172 Member+

    Feb 20, 2013
    One thing about Berhalter that keeps bothering me:

    Does his name actually mean "Beer-Holder"? I really am curious.
     
  21. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Why is injuries in quotation marks?
     
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  22. MPNumber9

    MPNumber9 Member+

    Oct 10, 2010
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think there was too much difference between what Bob and Jurgen (and even Arena) did, mostly because they had the same core group of achievers (don't forget to include Bradley, who was a keystone player in both systems; also Jurgen had more of Jones). Jurgen pivoted away from the two strikers, asking Jozy to play back-to-goal, which was better for possession and also more en vogue at the time.

    It's hard to think of what Berhalter might do because he hasn't coached a NT with a fixed pool before. At club level, you can (and should) establish a system and find players to plug in, but he'll have to be more flexible now. Having said that, I don't think what he's built with the Crew is not necessarily a bad fit for the US.
     
  23. butters59

    butters59 Member+

    Feb 22, 2013
    Highlighted parts are definitely not true, so cheer up.
     
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  24. TheHoustonHoyaFan

    Oct 14, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    FC Schalke 04
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    BB correctly built a system that maximized LD's strengths. The 2006+ LD had the potential to be the greatest transition attack threat on the planet. Unfortunately as Arena said, LD lacked the Kobe and MJ DNA...

    Deuce was an afterthought in BB's system. That became crystal clear when BB brought Findley to WC2010 simply because his scheme required a speed forward instead of moving to a 4-4-1-1 with Dempsey withdrawn behind Altidore which is essentially what Klinsmann did with his 4-2-3-1 (Dempsey).
     
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  25. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Forward is a position Deuce adjusted to over time. Bob utilized his him there towards the end the of '10 cycle.
     

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