Battle For Sixth In The UEFA Country Coefficients

Discussion in 'UEFA and Europe' started by EvanJ, Jun 30, 2010.

  1. goliath74

    goliath74 Member

    May 24, 2006
    Aventura, FL, United States
    Club:
    FC Dynamo Kyiv
    Country:
    Ukraine
    What happened to Russian EL teams is not going to happen again. That was atrocious. That was a disaster, which will probably never repeat.

    In the CL, CSKA Moskva reached quarterfinals, Rubin did rather well in a group, which contained Barcelona AND Inter.

    As for RPL, in general, the inflow of large amounts of money had made RPL one of the strongest leagues. I have a very respectable impression of RPL. So, do not count your chickens.
     
  2. GoodDead

    GoodDead Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 8, 2004
    Toronto Canada
    Club:
    Sporting Braga
    Country:
    Portugal
    Well you counted your chickens 2 years ago and they are getting smaller in number. Your impression is still high, that's great but it doesn't translate to coefficient points at all. But the points I made 2 years ago and last year have pretty much come through in psychic like manner. Russia will not finish this year in 6th and at best will finish 2010/11 10th overall in the rankings if they are lucky.
     
  3. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    As long as you don't count the points that you were dead wrong about. :p

    We've gone through this before. You made, I believe, 6 predictions of which you were correct on 4. 4/6 hardly psychic but you are free to believe whatever you need to boost your ego. :cool:

    Anyway, that other thread wasn't about coefficient points it was about what is the 6th-best league. So its more subjective. It's not about you being right and everyone else is wrong. It's just an opinion that cannot be proven.
     
  4. goliath74

    goliath74 Member

    May 24, 2006
    Aventura, FL, United States
    Club:
    FC Dynamo Kyiv
    Country:
    Ukraine
    Well, you said Russian clubs are only in 6th places due to EL success. And, lo and behold, a Russian club reaches CL quarters and another does really well in a group with Barca and Inter.

    Secondly, Russia had a sub-standard season last year. It's not likely to happen, maybe ever. If you're building your expectations based on that season, you will be bitterly disappointed.

    And, thirdly - Portugal are, right now, eighth, Russia are 7th, and Ukraine are 6th. That is the only fact that is evident TODAY. Your predictions/fantasies about the expected (by you) success of the Portuguese teams are not factual. They may become factual if they come true. But for now, they are not evident.

    What is evident, is that Braga are, most likely going to get knocked out of the CL. Dynamo Kyiv and Zenit are more likely to advance to CL group stage than Braga. If that, indeed, happens, both Ukraine and Russia will get additional 4 bonus points
     
  5. vilafria

    vilafria Member+

    Jun 2, 2005
    I think that all 3 clubs have equally difficult match-ups. Hard to predict which one will progress in the CL.
     
  6. ARREBIMBA

    ARREBIMBA Member

    May 20, 2010
    Are you sure?

    2000/01 - Russia 23.0
    2001/02 - Russia 14.0
    2002/03 - Russia 14.5
    2003/04 - Russia 23.5
    2004/05 - Russia 40.0
    2005/06 - Russia 40.0
    2006/07 - Russia 26.5
    2007/08 - Russia 45.0
    2008/09 - Russia 39.0
    2009/10 - Russia 37.0

    Looks pretty average to me. Russian teams as a whole never get much more points than that.
     
  7. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    That's a flawed analysis because they had a different # of teams in Europe in some of those years.

    A better way to look at it:
    - last season Russian teams had 9w, 9d, 12l in Europe. That's the worst combined record since 2002/3. There's no reason to think that last season was anything other than an aberration.
     
  8. ARREBIMBA

    ARREBIMBA Member

    May 20, 2010
    That "problem" is not specific to Russia. Portugal, Netherlands and many other countries also have to deal with that.

    As a whole, russian teams never get much more than what they got last season. That's a fact.
    In the last 10 years, Russia only once managed to win over 40 points. In the same time period Portugal made +40 points 8 times (+50 twice ).
    It's not even close man.

    If portuguese teams don't screw up big time, Russia won't be 6th by the end of the season.
     
  9. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    That's only true because they've had 4 teams in Europe until last season. Now that they have 6 teams they should be getting more points. There are 2 more teams that can collect additional points.

    This shouldn't be so difficult to grasp....
     
  10. ARREBIMBA

    ARREBIMBA Member

    May 20, 2010
    It is really difficult to grasp because what you're saying is not true.
    The number of russian teams competing is not the cause they score less points that Portugal. They score less points because as a whole they're not as strong as Portugal's big 3 (Benfica + Porto + Sporting) + Boavista/Braga.

    2000/01 - Russia 23.0 - 6 teams (Portugal, 4 teams, 24.5)
    2001/02 - Russia 14.0 - 6 teams (Portugal, 4 teams, 37.5)
    2009/10 - Russia 37.0 - 6 teams (Portugal, 6 teams, 60.0)


    And let me make this even more clear to you. Let's compare Russia's performance against Portugal's big 3 + a 4th team (Boavista 2000-2004, then Braga since 2004/05):

    2000/01 - Portugal 24.5; Russia 23.0 (4 portuguese teams vs 6 russian teams)
    2001/02 - Portugal 33.5; Russia 14.0 (3 vs 6)
    2002/03 - Portugal 39,5; Russia 14.5 (3 vs 4)
    2003/04 - Portugal 38.0; Russia 23.5 (3 vs 4)
    2004/05 - Portugal 47.0; Russia 40.0 (4 vs 4)
    2005/06 - Portugal 27.0; Russia 40.0 (4 vs 4)
    2006/07 - Portugal 47.5; Russia 26.5 (4 vs 4)
    2007/08 - Portugal 51.0; Russia 45.0 (4 vs 4)
    2008/09 - Portugal 45.0; Russia 39.0 (4 vs 4)
    2009/10 - Portugal 53.5; Russia 37.0 (4 vs 6)

    OMG what a surprise!!! :eek: Portugal still outscored Russia everytime for the last 10 years (except 05/06) even though we're only taking into consideration 3+1 portuguese teams against ALL russian teams! :rolleyes:

    Is it clear enough for you yet?

    Russia only having 4 teams competing is exactly the reason why they were able to climb up to 6th (same goes for Ukraine). When they have more than 4 teams their ranking always takes a hard fall.
    Which is what will probably happen to them in the next 2 years. ;)
     
  11. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    That's because the Portuguese league has no parity.

    For Portugal it doesn't make much difference if they have 4 or 6 teams in Europe because the big 3 get almost all the points anyway (as you've stated many times). But for Russia it does matter because the 5th and 6th teams are actually capable of collecting points in Europe. For example, in 2010/11 Russia's 6th team is CSKA Moscow - the CL quarter-finalists of last season. If they just had 4 teams in Europe, those teams would've been Rubin, Zenit, Sibir :)eek:) and Spartak. That probably would've translated into another 35-40 point total. But CSKA and Lokomotiv should be able to get 10-20 additional points (maybe).
     
  12. Chess_Panther

    Chess_Panther Member

    Apr 29, 2007
    Porto, Portugal
    It translates that the top portuguese teams are stronger than the top russians, the very least, you must assume that. It's a consistency that for goliath it doesn't matter the least. If I'm not mistaken, he said that even Rubin Kazan was stronger than FC Porto last season.
    We're talking about 9 out of 10. This is an undisputable fact.

    As for depth, how are any of those russian teams of Sibir, Spartak and Lokomotiv more significant than Maritimo, Nacional and V. Guimarães when in conjugation with the rest of their respective countries? They all work for the coefficient together and it's pretty obvious that the portuguese top clubs have had the edge over the top russian ones. Isn't that gap enough to make you realize that the perhaps the RPL depth you love to preach about (and curiously not supported by any factual evidence) isn't enough to withstand?
     
  13. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    Yes, I concede that.

    The depth is supported by factual evidence, unless Braga reached the quarterfinal of the CL recently and I just don't remember. I agree though that whether the depth of the RPL is enough to offset the superiority that Portugal possesses at the top is highly debatable. It's like comparing Bundesliga to La Liga. Totally subjective.
     
  14. Chess_Panther

    Chess_Panther Member

    Apr 29, 2007
    Porto, Portugal
    Quarterfinal?...if you're going to compare the depth of both leagues on that comparison alone... :rolleyes:

    It's funny, for someone that apparently is only here to discuss about depth and not coefficients I expected a little more than just that.

    Before replying, don't forget that your argument that a certain russian team was ranked 3rd or 4th in a particular season (AS IN QUALITY) is highly debatable. It's subjective. I say this because it makes a convenient argument to take a good european compaign and paint that particular team the best when in comparison to our established hierarchy.
     
  15. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    You said my theory was "not supported by any factual evidence". So I gave one piece of supporting evidence.

    If you need more, just look at the league tables of Portugal and Russia. 60-62 points is often enough to be Russian champions suggesting that there is a lot of parity and depth in the league, compared to Portugal where 2 or 3 teams are simply tearing apart the "competition" year after year.
     
  16. Chess_Panther

    Chess_Panther Member

    Apr 29, 2007
    Porto, Portugal
    No you decided to isolate an european campagin, the most nasty to date of Braga to present as a general one.

    Netherlands is a more balanced league than Portugal...hell, I'm pretty sure there are alot more from countries ranked below 20th. Perhaps is that an indicative that they're stronger than the portuguese league? La Liga? Serie A? Bundesliga? Ligue 1?...
    How many times is this dumb argument going to be used?

    If the top portuguese teams are superior to the top russians, what makes you think that our under 4 would struggle in the RPL?
     
  17. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    Using sarcasm isn't going to debunk my argument. I'm looking at the level of European success combined with competitiveness throughout the league. It's a perfectly rational way to assess the quality of mid-table teams.

    If RPL teams had virtually no success in Europe (like Norway, for instance) then I wouldn't be able to make any argument for the mid-table teams. But they do have some success (only marginally less than Portugal), so I can. :cool:
     
  18. goliath74

    goliath74 Member

    May 24, 2006
    Aventura, FL, United States
    Club:
    FC Dynamo Kyiv
    Country:
    Ukraine
    The top 3 of the Portuguese league may be consistently good. But Russian 4th through 6th teams are productive as well as the top 3 RPL sides. IN fact, in most cases, due to the quirks of RPL's Spring-Fall schedule, the top sides are no longer better than the 4th-6th.

    Sibir is not really more significant, they were a First League (Russian second level) team last year. But Spartak and Lokomotiv are the banner carriers of Russia. Spartak is for RPL, what Porto, Benfica, and Sporting combined are for Portugal. Spartak is still the top Russian club. And that they finished 8th two seasons ago suggests how tough it is to compete in the RPL.
     
  19. goliath74

    goliath74 Member

    May 24, 2006
    Aventura, FL, United States
    Club:
    FC Dynamo Kyiv
    Country:
    Ukraine
    Even when CSKA and Zenit were winning their UEFA Cup titles in the last 6 years, they were only marginally better than RPL's 4th, 5th, or 6th clubs (or not at all). So, RPL's parity is actually a head and shoulders above the parity enjoyed by the likes of the Norwegian league.

    In fact, in 2004-2005, when CSKA won their UEFA Cup, they were not even the best RPL club, they finished 2nd, and the 5th side finished only 5 points behind them.

    When Zenit won their UEFA Cup in 2007-08, they were only the 5th best RPL club! And the 8th place Spartak were only 4 points behind. This exemplifies parity and strength.

    I do happen to think Portugal's 5th or 6th teams would be struggling against relegation in the RPL.
     
  20. Chess_Panther

    Chess_Panther Member

    Apr 29, 2007
    Porto, Portugal
    No, this bullshit about picking certain russian teams to rank them in this or that place as in quality alone is very convenient. At the end is just your word, like any other russian fan will present a different personal ranking.
    No one in Portugal considers Braga to be 2nd best club and yet because Zenit finishes 5th one season, heck, what a perfect convenience to say they were the 5th best. Makes it all easy for you ah?

    Again, no factual evidence. And your line is a big LOL like your last season's comparison of Rubin and FC Porto. The mpre you type, the more demented you sound. Apparently, seems a familiar trait in your own forum as well.
     
  21. Chess_Panther

    Chess_Panther Member

    Apr 29, 2007
    Porto, Portugal
    You're just being mislead by the RPL balance and when you see Rubin in CL you immediately wet your pants.
     
  22. goliath74

    goliath74 Member

    May 24, 2006
    Aventura, FL, United States
    Club:
    FC Dynamo Kyiv
    Country:
    Ukraine
    Zenit finished 5th THE SEASON THEY WON THE UEFA CUP. What this should tell a normal person is that RPL is extremely even. it is not my word (you should not care about my word, anyway), it is the standings. And nothing is more factual than standings.

    Rubin is certainly no worse than Porto. I do not recall Porto beating Barcelona last season, do you? I do remember Porto getting knocked out by Arsenal, 7-1 on the aggregate in the very first knock-out round. I do remember Porto getting a cream puff of a group, unlike Rubin's group of death. That's right, no Cyprus teams in Rubin's group.
     
  23. Chess_Panther

    Chess_Panther Member

    Apr 29, 2007
    Porto, Portugal
    No what tells is that in a given year they finished in a certain place. The same way Braga failed to overcome Elfsborg last season when they have been consistent on a regular basis in Europe.
    Even within that balance of the RPL there are stronger top clubs than others. Again, you disregard that by your own convenience.

    By judging people's opinions about your top 20 rankings in the FSU, apparently not even they seem to agree with you to the point they WANT it changed.
    It's a typical pattern when it comes to you and your notion of quality, deal with it.


    So Rubin beats Barcelona and they're an european colossus? Perhaps should I state other surprising results last season on the same page? :rolleyes:

    What I find unbelievable is that you're ok in admitting that portuguese top clubs are consistently better than russian top ones in 9 OUT OF 10 seasons and yet you see no correlation to strenght.
    What are you're saying is that these top russian clubs are better than portuguese ones but had bad luck over and over the past decade except 1 year only. If this doesn't prove you're full of shit, then idk what will.


    I'm pretty sure the portuguese clubs will once again score more than russian ones this year and I had my final word on this. We will close the gap and perhaps even overpass.

    Let's rely on the numbers and see who's right.
     
  24. BocaFan

    BocaFan Member+

    Aug 18, 2003
    Brooklyn, NY
    I get what you're trying to say. If Sevilla somehow finish ahead of Barca in La Liga, I would still expect Barca to have more success in Champions League. But your logic fails when you try to compare a league like Portugal with a league that has a lot more parity.
     
  25. goliath74

    goliath74 Member

    May 24, 2006
    Aventura, FL, United States
    Club:
    FC Dynamo Kyiv
    Country:
    Ukraine
    No what it tells you is that RPL is a league with very good parity. Zenit can be champions one year and 5th the next. Spartak were 8th one year and 2nd the next. CSKA were champions one year and 4th the next. All within 3 years. It's not like the Portuguese (or even my own, Ukrainian league)

    Well, of course, people do have their own opinions. But why don't you go there again and see what top 20 lists people came up with and you'll see they agree with my list 80%-90%. You know, having very little information (in your case) is almost as bad as having NONE.


    Once again, predictably, you missed a point. You have been attacking (for no clear reason) Rubin kazan as somehow an inferior (to Porto) team. That is funny, expecially given that YOU yourself were wrong when you predicted they were a one year wonder and they were not very good. it turns out they repeated as RPL champions and left a really good account of themselves in the CL.

    No, that is not what I (or anyone here) says. I accept that RPL top three are no better than the Portuguese top 3. But Portuguese top 3 bring in 75%-85% of Portugal's coefficient points every season. Most RPL teams (obviously, not Sibir, of course) are capable of hauling good number of points. And this is where Zenit's 2007-2008 UEFA Cup winning campaign comes in - it is a great example of RPL's 5th best team getting a lot of points. Can Braga do that? Gimaraes? Nacional?

    And, thus we will have our answer to the thread's question. No need to react so silly to other people's opinion, just because they're different from yoours!
     

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