Ballon d'Or 2012 Thread...

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Mysterious, Apr 25, 2012.

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  1. schwuppe

    schwuppe Member+

    Sep 17, 2009
    Club:
    FC Kryvbas Kryvyi Rih
    Regardless of the opinion that is expressed here, using quotes - doesn't matter if they're from Franz Beckenbauer or your granduncle - as a sole argument is and never will be valid in any case.
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    LOL, it is not the exclusive property of Argentinian players.
     
  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    It is also good to re-read what the press noticed in the past about legendary players.

    George Best was famed for his close control with both feet

    A young Cruijff was famed for his combination of pace and close control, in particular the blistering start and agility from a standstill position. That is also what Brian Glanville singled out in a interview held in early 1970 (so before all the prizes and excessive hoopla).


    Every player has a different style and you can't say with a blink of an eye whether someone has a better control as someone else. Like you signal, I think Ronaldinho had more composure than anyone before or after him.
     
  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, good examples and many players have stood out for their close control (and in different ways - Zidane was so great at keeping the ball close to his body and manouevering it, Best's dribbling control in particular, and Pele of course had a great touch - even just watching the goal vs Sweden in the 1958 World Cup Final where he plays the ball over the defenders head then volleys in tells us that but he could be great on the dribble too).
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Zidane had close control in a different way. I'd say his best asset was his near perfect awareness in the near proximity surrounding him and direct understanding of how he could solve situations in between three or four players/defenders.

    In itself, many other players have the same control over the ball and could do the same things as Zidane but he knew it within one tenth of a second and that's why it looked so full of grace and relaxed - even with two defenders in front of him and two behind him. Because high awareness means no panicking. If you know what I mean.

    I mean, many players can perform a roulette but to know what one should do in between four players and observe what those four others do is very difficult, in that brief window of time. Many, even at the very top level, meet cognitive difficulties in observing and processing so many moving bodies in your close proximity. Processing one defender is fine but three or four is a different story...

    Dunno how I can explain it better :p But I'd say his best ability was his awareness and processing of movements in the near proximity of him.
     
  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, that's a very good observation. I think it's fair to say his awareness and his touch and precise control were both great. Also, though he wasn't a physical player I think his size and the robustness of his body was an advantage in keeping the ball under pressure. Also his long legs were in those situations an advantage in moving the ball away from defenders I suppose.

    He had a different style to other players that were more focused on trying to move past players wheras Zidane was more focused on keeping possession of the ball. I suppose Xavi is similar in that respect but with a different style that is more systematic I think and less individualistic. IMO Zidane had more pure talent than Xavi though just to clarify.
     
  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Xavi is purely focused on maintaining possession. He looks for the conservative option whereas Zidane often tried, with success, the pro-active option (though not always and according to some not often enough). And when he succeeded the team had outnumbered the opponent.

    He is also rarely closed down by multiple players due to the system he plays in (same with Messi) and his position; Zidane played most often further ahead on the field in more crowded areas.

    Anyhow, it is very hard to keep an eye on three/four moving bodies who want to dispossess you and I think Zidane was one of the best there have been in that aspect. He had eyes in his back and could observe&process multiple moving objects simultaneously. It is an gift that not everyone has.

    He was less gifted in seeing everything that went beyond his close proximity though, I'm tempted to say.
     
  8. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Gerry Armstrong (on Messi) - "I know what it's like to score against Barcelona, but end up losing 4-1. My first goal in Spanish league was against Barcelona. Unfortunately a certain Diego Maradona was in the side for Barcelona and he just took control and they beat us 4-1.

    Look at this little man, well, I think he's better than Maradona, I think he better than anybody I've ever seen."

    Carlos Bianchi - "A few days ago I did a talk for a business and a Brazilian asked me in the middle of the conference who I considered the best footballer in history, Maradona or Pele. I answered that, with all due respect to those two, right now I see Messi as superior to everyone"

    Ossie Ardiles - “I think he’s certainly the best player of his generation. And I definitely believe not only that but he’s the best player in the history of football. To be perfectly honest, I thought I would never encounter anybody in the same league because Diego was a genius. One of the reasons I think Messi is better than Maradona and Pelé is evolution. People before say Pelé was running 5,000, 6,000 meters. Now they are running 9,000 meters. Now players eat better, train better, the pitches are better. So this is why I believe Messi is the very best ever.”

    Hugo Sotil - "I've played with geniuses like Maradona, Pele,... but for me Leo Messi is the best player ever."

    Arsene Wenger – Who's the best player in the world? ”Lionel Messi.” Who's the best player of all time? ”Lionel Messi.”

    I could go on...
     
  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    For every Ossie Ardiles (who?) you got a Van Basten who is certain in his estimation that Maradona was an inherently more talented player.

    Or Di Stefano if you like.
     
  10. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    And they are just trying to protect their legacy by not admitting it.
     
  11. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Don't hate dude, I never said it was exclusive to Argentina's players. Brazil and Italy obviously have it as well.
     
  12. Omideyi

    Omideyi Member

    Dec 13, 2004
    London
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Nigeria
    we're talking about a calendar year record, right? well then surely it makes just as much sense to use his calendar year ratio so far as it does to use his current ratio?
     
  13. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I cite:

    "The Argentine touch, the most cultured in the world."
     
  14. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I really don't know why I'm contributing to this but, to be fair, both Ruud Gullit and Graeme Souness also said they thought Messi was better than Maradona.
     
  15. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    So the opinion of any great player does not count, but that of the lesser ones does?

    Exactly.
     
  16. Bada Bing

    Bada Bing Member+

    Jul 13, 2012
    Finland
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Greater player doesn't mean greater opinion. Just look what Pele has said.
     
  17. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Because you feel too good?

    Gullit has said a lot of outright contradictory things, probably depending on who pays him, and I got internet sources to back this up so you can verify it (instead of believing my eyes):

    In May 2010:

    http://soccernet.espn.go.com/world-.../ruud-gull-all-time-no-10s?cc=5739&ver=global

    Less than 3 years earlier in December 2007:
    http://fourfourtwo.com/interviews/perfectxi/136/article.aspx


    There is nothing wrong with that, we all change our opinions but we are also free to hold an opinion about the opinions. Or in this case the consistency of the opinions.
     
  18. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Because this thread has long run it's course. It's 3700 replies long (the old guidelines were for 500 max)! I'm just waiting for the official Ballon D'Or nominations to come out for it to be put out of its misery.

    I can accept that.
     
  19. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    No doubt. I am referring to running at speed with the ball. But Ronaldinho's ability to do anything with the ball is definitely in a game situation is definitely above Messi. I'd say in that aspect Maradona was also above Messi.
     
  20. ---Z---

    ---Z--- Member+

    Cagalhao
    Nov 2, 2005
    CAMPEAO
    Club:
    Sporting CP Lisbon
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    Messi to me isn't that exciting he is very direct always does the same
    Thing over and over it seems but he's so good at it hardly anyone can stop him

    The whole barcelona system is built around
    Messi to maximize his finishing. Everyone does all the hard running for him
    And feeds most final balls to him, he floats around jogging in the centre of the pitch conserving his energy for his hero runs.

    I don't think maradona pele or c Ronaldo or others have this advantage , the whole Barca syste
    Completely plays for messi

    Villa is on the bench still, he shoots too much every other striker is forced out

    Barca system is a striker less system
    That dictates tempo and dominates possession 1 gk and 9 total footballers defending attacking as making hard runs with a deep lying playmaker/striker messi floating around like a predator until he unleashes bursts of speed thorough the centre to try and stick the ball in the net

    It's interesting the tactics of Barcelona and their refus
    To accept any other strikers into the team ,
     
  21. MailMan

    MailMan Red Card

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    Ronaldinho was definitly able to manipulate the ball to do more things but Messi still has better control, Ronaldinho might be able to trap the ball better, although Messi can control a long ball in mid run better. Messi is better at keeping the ball close to his body, meaning he can change direction at a moments notice. Ronaldinhos juggling was obviously superior.

    Maradona was above both of them.
     
  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    what is a 'mid run'?
     
  23. celito

    celito Moderator
    Staff Member

    Palmeiras
    Brazil
    Feb 28, 2005
    USA
    Club:
    Palmeiras Sao Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Brazil
    In the middle of a run. Basically controlling a pass while running without breaking stride and keeping close control.
     
  24. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    A couple of examples Puck will like:) :

    (0.07)
     
  25. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Yes, Bergkamp was in terms of technique one of the best I've seen. But that was also more obvious in his case because he had not the extreme physique, pace or flashy tricks of others.

    Cruijff was great and interesting but as you said elsewhere, in his case it was the (sort of) complete all-round package and mathematical view on the game that stood out. With some changes it also allowed him to become a good coach (not necessarily of all-time level like Alex Ferguson but more in a 'revolutionary' sense). Bergkamp was better technically I'd say although Cruijff had an interesting view on his physical limitations, the problems with his feet and the like, and that was "you [he means himself in his youth] cannot do what 90% can do but you can do things what the 90% can't".

    Btw, when he was asked how he would rate the best football players in an overall sports rating he answered "football is a global game and for 50 years people learned it on the street which is accessible to everyone". He concluded his answer with the observation that it is difficult to compare different sports and that the only way to compare is look to what degree athletes stood out in their sports above their peers; gauging all relevant aspects/dimensions of that particular sport. As illustration he said "if you take the best and characteristic attributes of Di Stefano and Pelé together in one person you see probably Michael Jordan appearing in front of you."

    That is interesting because it leaves the possibility open that we have yet not seen the ultimate football player (if it exists, which some incl. Cruijff and Bergkamp doubt). Anyhow, my thought :)
     

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