Baggio vs Ladrup vs Rivaldo vs Ronaldinho

How come Rivaldo had a higher peak than both Baggio and Laudrup?

I don't agree with that, at all.

 

Agreed

in addition to that, Rivaldo (as did Romario) scored 8 goals to be come top scorer in WC02 qualifiers as well, so Rivaldo really cuts it for me in the NT arena.
NT: Rivaldo>Baggio>Laudrup>Ronaldinho

But I checked laudrup season 1992, and actually he did win Champions league'92 not UEFA cup.

 

Because he DID have.
Rivaldo 99 season was a marquee and complete season for a great player standard. I rated that season a bit higher than Baggio 93, or "arguably" I can say Rivaldo 99 = Baggio 93
We can have a separate thread to debate this, or take more opinion.

Laudrup was ON/OFF in form and hardly got a " full complete "great season - Like Cruijff said ... he gave 80% in those time ... unfortunately ! So he was the worst one in "PEAK" season.

 

Ronaldo pays tribute

Cristiano Ronaldo has paid a special tribute to former team-mate Rio Ferdinand in an exclusive interview with the official matchday programme for the defender's testimonial against Sevilla.
The centre-back celebrates over a decade at Old Trafford with the friendly against the Spanish side and Ronaldo has some kind words for a player who helped him develop into a world-class star during his time in Manchester.
"10 years have gone by since I signed for United and today, as a Real Madrid player, I want to talk about one of the greatest players that Old Trafford and the world of football have witnessed," stated Ronaldo. "My friend Rio.
"For me, it's an incredible honour to be able to pay tribute to one of the best defenders of all time on such an important night. His football and personality, inside and outside the pitch, were fundamental, not only in the development of the team, but also in all of us that had the opportunity to share great memories and football moments with him.
"What I am about to say may help describe him better as a player: I feel so fortunate to have played with him rather than against him.
"Today, I wish for all the fans to enjoy a memorable occasion and to take this opportunity to pay tribute to one of the most memorable players that has worn United's jersey."


So what do you guys have to say about Rio Ferdinand? Great player or just averaged?

 

Maybe you are right about that. Peak season has a lot to do with consistency, and maybe you could argue that Rivaldo 1999 was more "consistent" than Baggio 1993, perhaps.

In terms of what they could do on a good day, I rate both Baggio and Laudrup above Rivaldo.

 

I can understand what you are doing - seperating peak season(s) and peak form and I suppose that is fair enough . I'm not sure what my answer would be in terms of peak season (I could do with being that robot from the Short Circuit film, and watching the full games of the best seasons of each player in 30 minutes ) but I can see that although his form within games wasn't necessarily great all the way through that Rivaldo certainly had a period when he was consistently coming up with the goods.

btw, just as explanation as to why I/we put Laudrup top for pace (I think watching him at Barcelona can also give the right impression, in the right moments, as he was still pretty quick in the earlier part of the 90's compared to when he was at Real Madrid and afterwards):

He was probably about as quick as Elkjaer at that time!
(I don't want to cross over between threads, but just wanted to clarify as I know you put him in a category with Zidane in terms of classic midfield playmaker with slower speed/style than even Gerson, Rivelino - as the above shows that wasn't always the case although I think at Barcelona too he did prefer to be the passer/instigator rather than the runner/finisher).

To add my thoughts about Laudrup's role at Barcelona to those of Puck and greatstriker:
I think he seems to have played a few different roles including from the left hand side etc (although sometimes because of the way he played the false 9 role it could be easy to watch Barcelona and assume he was playing a different role even when he was the nominal number 9 and not just by number - he wore number 10 vs Man Utd in the 1991 Cup Winners Cup Final though and seemed to play more from midfield; from extended highlights of the game at home to Juventus from the same year he would also seem to be playing more from the left at least for large parts).
I know Barcelona also switched between a 4-3-3 and 3-1-2-1-3 under Cruyff meaning Laudrup would alternate between false 9 and more of a number 10 behind 3 forwards. I think he also at times played as second striker or behind a couple of forwards but I'm not sure completely and as said it could be easy to confuse the false 9 role the way he played it with such alternative roles.

Anyway it's correct that he generally played a deeper role once Romario was there but also correct that he played in the same team as Salinas quite often in the early days.

 

This video that Puck has posted before also, shows Cruyff in more of a withdrawn number 10 role that he would have instructed Laudrup to play in at times (and as said when he was playing as false 9 he would have been withdrawing into the midfield and wide often like Cruyff himself did too at WC 74, maybe even more so especially if Stoichkov was lining up from wide and coming into the centre-forward position a lot; and Bakero too from midfield as Puck said):

I know that Happel planned to use the sort of system above if Cruyff had gone to WC 74. Because they actually used a 3 player defence in that WC, it's likely Cruyff could have played in a 3-1-2-1-3 or at least a 3-4-1-2 in the 'hole' at times, if he'd been in Argentina too.

 

I think this video shows that he did use his pace and often when he dribbled, while at Barcelona. At 1:16 you can see he could still score individual goals after speedy dribbles too. By contrast, Zidane's individual goals were normally scored after side-stepping a few players with drops of the shoulder and then firing in a shot, but not by using pace to go past anybody with or without the ball (although he wasn't really really slow either).

Here's more evidence of Laudrup's pace and capability to run directly from the 80's though (though surely he did peak in the 90's, especially in terms of creativity):



Going back to the 1986 WC, he was creating and being dangerous even in the 5-1 loss to Spain so I think that he did have a really good tournament (coming off his best Juve season):

This video shows more of his general play at Juve, playing mainly from Boniek's old role of left side AM I believe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHccu27vYI0
It's interesting that Platini says he was better in training than matches indeed at that stage (and better for Denmark than for Juve I'd say given his goals and play before the 1986 WC as well as in it). Koeman said the opposite about his time at Barca I think - that he didn't always seem very interested in training but made his mark on games - I can't find the quote/relevant article now but here is his Perfect XI with comments about Laudrup:
http://fourfourtwo.com/interviews/perfectxi/120/article.aspx
Also, here's a page with quotes (I was looking for the Bakero one really, to show how he was thought of by Barca team-mates):
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/everything-you-need-know-michael-2052935
And the Barcelona page with the video Puck posted, with also words of praise:
http://www.fcbarcelona.com/football...icle/season/2012-2013/legendary-laudrup-goals

 

Well this is what I have observed. Cruyff's dream team lasted 4 years. There's has been a lot of change in tactics. With every change Laudrup's game seem to have changed as well. He was a false number 9, thus sometimes he would give the impression that he was a striker, but actually he had the mindset of a playmaker with the form/capability of a striker. Cruyff didn't know what to do with this. Shall I use him as a feeder or striker? But with the arrival of a fourth foreigner he was forced(to comply regulations) to change tactics again to allocate play time for all of them. So Laudrup and Stoichkov took the lead in Champions League matches while Koeman was on and off. Romario was the only one having constant playtime in league matches. Perhaps this effected Laudrup's better side as a playmaker rather then a striker.

[I know Barcelona also switched between a 4-3-3 and 3-1-2-1-3 under Cruyff meaning Laudrup would alternate between false 9 and more of a number 10 behind 3 forwards.] There you have it. Sometimes for the good of the team's chances to win a match or two, some players are sacrificed. Cruyff did have too many good players during "dream team". It was imminent that someone had to be compromised.

 

I'd like to ask you guys a philosophical question. It's more to do with what we perceive in a traditional way to be a good player/striker/playmaker. I know that football is an entertainment sport. And it's the sensational games that entertains the audience the most, obviously. But technically scoring or outplaying the opponent with the least effort(less sweating) is a virtue that tends to be overlooked and not valued. I know we give a lot of weight to pace and speed and sensational runs.

But who do you think is a better player, the one who needs speed to be dangerous and effective or the one that is as effective and dangerous with the least effort(static play)?

As an example, a static player like Valderrama was as dangerous and effective a player as a more mobile player like Zidane. Romario was also more or less static, yet he was as effective at scoring as Ronaldo was. I'm not implying that one is better then the other, since it's a mere difference in style of play, but my attention and fascination is more drawn towards those static players who seem to be as effective and dangerous as the more mobile ones. In the end, most veterans in their 30's lose pace anyway, but gain experience. And experience has shown in many occasion to be a better asset than the athleticism of a young body. Brains vs muscles? I would class Laudrup as an intelligent player rather then an athletic player. So perhaps we should consider that when assessing him.

 

I'd like to ask you guys a philosophical question. It's more to do with what we perceive in a traditional way to be a good player/striker/playmaker. I know that football is an entertainment sport. And it's the sensational games that entertains the audience the most, obviously. But technically scoring or outplaying the opponent with the least effort(less sweating) is a virtue that tends to be overlooked and not valued. I know we give a lot of weight to pace and speed and sensational runs.

But who do you think is a better player, the one who needs speed to be dangerous and effective or the one that is as effective and dangerous with the least effort(static play)?

As an example, a static player like Valderrama was as dangerous and effective a player as a more mobile player like Zidane. Romario was also more or less static, yet he was as effective at scoring as Ronaldo was. I'm not implying that one is better then the other, since it's a mere difference in style of play, but my attention and fascination is more drawn towards those static players who seem to be as effective and dangerous as the more mobile ones. In the end, most veterans in their 30's lose pace anyway, but gain experience. And experience has shown in many occasion to be a better asset than the athleticism of a young body. Brains vs muscles? I would class Laudrup as an intelligent player rather then an athletic player. So perhaps we should consider that when assessing him.

 

You'e spot on that.
I would say Rivaldo 99 was among very top season performance of a great player, he delivered more in big games also consistency. 24goals/36games for a LFW was not a common rate back then. At UCL98-99, Barca were unlucky to be in the Group of Death, with Bayern and ManU - these two became eventually the finalist! Rivaldo got 3goals/6games there. Copa99 he scored 5gaols+2ass and earned Joined topscorer (with Ronaldo) but he won the MVP instead of R9.

Baggio 93 was sensational with some great games in display, that "rarely seen" by an Italian of beautiful football. He also played great in UEFA cup to win for Juve. However, if we "dig in" to the depth, Baggio scored most goals vs lower teams SerieA 93, than RiValdo in liga 99. Also Copa99 demonstrated a full blossom stardom of Rivaldo in International stage which was also bigger than Baggio with Italian NT same year.

So in Brief my take was simple:

- League: Rivaldo (24go/37games) won Topscorer + Liga > Baggio 17go/27ga ( 2nd serieA. )
- International: Rivaldo won Topscorer + MVP copa99 > Baggio 5go/9ga WC94 QUAL
- International club: Baggio 6goals/9games won UEFA cup > Rivaldo 3go/6ga (UCL group)

 

Yeah in "absolute peak season" Rivaldo and Ronaldinho shone better (for club) than both Baggio/Laudrup per their best season. Here we are talking about "peak performance" and "efficiency in delivery results"

2nd bold, you're right Laudrup was at least as fast as Gerson and surely faster than Riquelme and Zidane, Vaderama ... (when I say "slow speed" I refer to Pele/Maradona/Cruijff ... who were very very fast - even Zico, Platini were also fast - hence no shame)
However in term of STYLE, they share the same. All of them like to operate at center or near center MF, control dictate the pitch then start distributing balls to the FW. Xavi (08 to 2010) displayed the same style of "playmaking"

Last bold about Laudrup "position":
You're right, Laudrup (like Zidane) played no less than 4,5 different positions in different teams, formation. However in brief, we consider his STYLE and ROLE rather than starting position, of which Cruijff, Di Stefano would always be considered as a Center Forward???

At Barca dream team 89-94 (Laudrup was clearly the playmaker of such team)


But also agree in some games, he did play as either tresquartista (behind 1 striker) or even as a deep CF (in 4 3 3 ) a la Cruijff's Ajax. But those games were less than 20% of his total games. 80% of his games he was mostly CAM behind 2 or 3 men.

at Real (1 season 94-95)
Laudrup was playing (sometimes) "false9" in 4 3 3 and more often AM in 4 2 2 2 :

---- Zamorano ---- Laudrup ----- Amavvisca----

------Emrique ---- Redondo -----Vasque------

Lasa ----- Hiero ------Sanchis --------Quique

but MOST OFTEN:

----- Zamorano ----------------- Amavisca---
----------L Enrique ------M Laudrup -------
------- Redondo -----------Vasquez ----------
Lasa ----- Hiero ------Sanchis --------Quique

 

Laudrup's best seasons at Barca are better than Rivaldo's. The only thing I agree with all your drivel is that Ronaldinho's peak form with Barca is the highest among these four players at club level.

Highest peak form at club level: Ronaldinho (La Liga 04 - 07)
Highest peak form at NT level: Baggio (WCs 90 and 94)
Longest consistency at club level: Laudrup (La Liga 89 - 96)
Longest consistency at NT level: Rivaldo (WCs 98 and 02, CA 97 and 99), Laudrup (WCs 86 and 98, Euro 84 and 88).

 

Why has Baggio a markedly greater NT career as Laudrup?

Baggio his 1994WC wasn't great really, as someone else has pointed out here. The statistics show that too but he was injured.

Laudrup was good to great in 1984, 1986, 1988, 1998. Also decent in 1996.

In terms of form shown at multiple tournaments Laudrup I think Baggio cannot beat him. Only in terms of peak maybe but I doubt whether 1994 was markedly better as Laudrup in 1986.

It is a question I ask because I think the number of tournaments with a proper display is something where Laudrup scores well.

I also see that his namesake (laudrup_10) tends to rate him at the bottom for NT career but I think that is not so clear. Not many can say to be all-star material in two tournaments, separated 12 years from each other (1986 and 1998).

 

Problem is as I have pointed earlier, you guys are too obsessed with statistics. You're blinded by numbers.

Quantity vs quality

Stats produce numbers, while eye witness gives a better perspective of quality.

If we were to honour statistics then Maradona would not make it into the top 10-15 best footballers in history! It wasn't statistics that made Maradona into football's greatest but the millions of eye witnesses who've seen him in WC86 and Napoli, Boca etc. to testify to his greatness.

Again, stats are good for overall guidelines. But should not be taken too seriously as a measuring stick for greatness.

As an example, stats may say:
(Player A): 5 goals + 2 assists in 8 games
(Player B): 8 goals + 1 assist in 10 games

You guys will jump and conclude therefore that player A must be better, but did the statistics tell you that:
1. strength of competition/season that year?
2. opponents whom those goals have been scored against?
3. the relative strength of the team player A to team player B?
4. QUALITY of 5 goals + 2 assists VS 8 goals + 1 assists????

There you have it, you may end up being biased for picking either of player A or player B.

But who were the best verdict/jury to judge? The millions of eye witnesses!

I'm aware and do appreciate STATS, I consult with statistics myself to be sure of something or to support my empirical observations. But, I rather leave the numbers for the accountants instead.

 

Read well!

I was talking about "peak season" that Rivaldo 99 (1 season) was better than any best season of Laudrup at Barca/ Juve Real ,... OK

In general, I agree Laudrup whole Barca career > Rivaldo whole Barca career

 

It's a good info and good indication for Ronnie's big season 05-06

However, like I mentioned Rivaldo's 98-99 was just more complete - including his super Copa99 form on top of his club's form. I do not take ESM as a "rule of thumb" per se. Their rating may be good but not perfect correct .. I believe Rivaldo 99 should have more better games than his 99-00.
Also it all depends on "other players' form in same season" to make the judgement less perfect.

For example, it's notably "easier" for Keegan or Rummenigge to have won 2 Ballon dors in late 70s than Zidane, Ronaldo, Figo or Rivaldo from late 90 to early 2000 - more competitive and more quality.

========================================

back to topic, I think some of us kinda agree with the following: (>= slightly, > better)
1- Overall Club career + Longevity: Laudrup >= Ronaldinho >= Rivaldo >= Baggio
2- Overall NT career: Rivaldo >= Baggio >= Laudrup >= Ronaldinho
3- Peak form/season: Rivaldo99 >= Ronaldino 06 >= Baggio 93 >= any Laudrups (80s, 90s)
4- Talent in purity (RAW and nothing to do with performance in big games)
this is debatable but my view: Laudrup = Ronaldinho >= Rivaldo = Baggio

 

Off the topic, here's another documentary by Dutch national TV (NOS). Too commemorate the 100 years of PSV NOS(Dutch TV) produced a documentary series (much like Barca legends series) on the quest for the best footballer in the history of the Club. Players like Ronaldo, Romario, and other legendary star players who passed through Eredivisie are reviewed and studied.

But this time on Romario:




Unfortunately I haven't got that much time to find a translated version of these documentaries. So, perhaps I'm wasting time by posting these docs on bigsoccer.com

But in a nutshell, in the documentary they state that Romario was PSV's best football player ever and that he is being regarded as the counterpart of Cruyff at PSV Eindhoven for having put Club at the spot in Holland. The rest is bla bla bla in Dutch.

 

That wasn't said.

Yes, it is said that although Van der Kuijlen is seen as PSV his greatest player, Romario was the best in their history (note: when he was in form).
It is not said that Romario was the "Cruijff of PSV".
It is also not said that he put PSV on the map. After all, they had won the European Cup in the season before Romario arrived.

I'll try to translate what is said, it is actually the documentary I mentioned a while ago.

 

minute 1:38 - greatest vs best (a subtle translation mistake by me). He said that it was "Wilhelmus "Willy" Martinus Leonardus Johannes van der Kuijlen" because of his goal record, but the best player in terms of quality in PSV was Romario.

[It is not said that Romario was the "Cruijff of PSV".
It is also not said that he put PSV on the map. After all, they had won the European Cup in the season before Romario arrived.] I agree it's not being said at all. The thing is I watched this video at 04:00 am after a Clubbing out in Amsterdam last night. I was tired and boozed to my toes, so either it got lost translation or I was dreaming awake. LOL.

But having just woken up now and sober I realise my mistake,

So I do apologise!

 

Another much overlooked player: STOICHKOV

Look at his control and how he scores at minute 3:00

 

Those who thought they knew Romario...

think again!

This is a show by a Dutch reporter who follwed Romario in Rio de Janeiro in 1991.

Showing the real Romario, carrying GUNS!, driving Porsches, dancing with girls and playing "footvolley ball" on the streets in favela's till midnight for money.