Assessment of young Americans in Europe (as a group)?

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by dspence2311, Jan 19, 2020.

  1. TrueCrew

    TrueCrew Member+

    Dec 22, 2003
    Columbus, OH
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    We beat Mexico. 2-0.

    2010 had such promise. If Davies & Holden are healthy, who knows what happens? If we beat Ghana, Uruguay was in the quarters. Winnable game.

    Still, 2002 we played our best in the KO round. I will go with that squad. Deeper. More versatile. Better in KOs.
     
  2. bsky22

    bsky22 Member+

    Dec 8, 2003
    ???

    That highlights the lack of depth. Findlay for Davies. Ouch!!! We will have much more quality talent next cycle that would be capable of replacing our 4th best attacker.

    I'd agree it was our most complete team. I also rank it only slightly above 1994, 2010, and 2014.
     
  3. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    Extended long winded blather begins here, enter at your own risk:

    Donovan got the Golden Ball Award at the U17 World Cup, I honestly have no idea what the heck happened at the '01 U20 WC. I know he played well but was frustrated with Clive Charles at the '00 Olympics in Sydney (did score in the group stage). At the '02 WC he scored a deflected/own goal vs Portugal, and had two goals against Poland (1 wrongly waived off in my view), scored int he Round of 16, and had two or three chances he just missed in the quarters. '06 was disappointing beyond the epic Italy game, '10 he was the start of the tourney for us. To my mind, I look at what he did, and I just flat out don't buy he wasn't a star, in his prime. I think he had a really particular and peculiar mental make up that made Germany exactly the wrong place for him to go. i think if he was able to be a dominant weapon in the WC, and he was, he was then able to do it against the very best. Look back at his best performances at the full international level, where he repeatedly put Mexico to the sword, and at the WC itself found the net against Portugal, Poland, Mexico, and if not for world class goal keeping, would've against Germany as well, in '06 his star turn was against the eventual champions Italy, at '10 he was excellent against Slovenia, Algeria, and Ghana. If he's able to play heads up w/teams of that caliber, I don't know how we can fail to leave room for nuance. I get the idea: He made his bones in MLS, and didn't do squat in Europe, so he failed the "club" test the other guys all have passed. Well Donovan gave starring performances against Portugal, against Poland, against Mexico, Germany, Italy, Slovenia, Algeria and Ghana at the World Cup, and against a Spain that hadn't lost in several years at the Confed Cup in '09, to go w/excellent performances against Egypt and Brazil as well.

    Pulisic hasn't had the chance to do that, neither have the other kids, not yet, but that's a damn, damn, hard gauntlet to pick up for any of them. Want to put the ball in the net four times (one probably wrongly waived off) in a World Cup? Donovan did that at barely 20. Want to be the key player in an epic draw w/the eventual world cup champion? Donovan did that in '06. Want to single handedly drag a World Cup disaster out from the brink and singlehandedly force your way into the knockouts instead? That's what Donovan did against Slovenia-Algeria-Ghana in back to back to back do or die games (before falling in extra time to Ghana).

    Do we really need to pretend he wasn't good enough because Bayern Munich said so? We saw with our own eyes what he did in '99, '00, '02, '06, '09, '10 and other than Dempsey, nobody come within a country mile of what he did, especially at the WC stage. Donovan was an absolute powerhouse when he was comfortable and mentally right, more dominant than any player in USMNT in the shirt, period. He was not, for whatever reason, built to play in Europe. Many of us, me included, lost our ---- over his unwillingness to test himself over there until the very end (and then, only on his terms in short loans, never full time). But his greatness? I just don't think its deniable. Like, at all. He was a truly great player.

    Btw, you can say the same thing about Pope to an even greater extent, literally never tested himself against Europeans, period, but when people draw up the best American Centerbacks ever, if Pope isn't #1, he's 1B.

    I don't agree about McBride, like at all, and I say this as one of the clowns who called him McHead and thought him overhyped for years. He was not a world class Forward, nobody would say as much, but he was a legit, stud target Forward who could've played in Europe, easily. the problem was that he came up when there was no league in the US (he turned 18 during Italia '90, not exactly primo time for a young US starlet to make good in the international game). If you go back and watch his game, no, he's not Zlatan, he's not Messi, he's not even a guy 40 below them, but he was an excellent target man for us, 5 goals in 15 world cup+confed cup matches, 10 goals in 25 WC Qualifiers, his goal+assist+PK rate in the club game was right there w/Dempsey and Altidore at .49 per game (Altidore sits at .58, Dempsey at .48, Donovan at .67, Pulisic vs much tougher competition sits at .52, Mathis for what it's worth sits at .51). The idea that McBride figured it out at Fulham is belied by the fact that what he did at Fulham is exactly the same thing he did everywhere else, just not quite as well due to the competition and likely playing time.

    As for Mathis, and Pope, hey man, believe what you want to believe, if you watched Mathis play in 2000-2002, you saw a world class player, period. He just had crappy mental make up, and a serious knee injury. Simple as that. To help out, his G+A+PK's per 90 in 2000 and 2001 were 1.25 and 0.99 respectively, nobody just randomly looking, of the time period, was hitting those #'s playing as big a sample size as him. Look at Vela and Zlatan in a much better league last year, and neither were at that level either. I'm not about to argue that MLS in 1999 or 2000 was elite by any stretch, but Mathis was playing beside legit players around the league, and lapping them at that point. He blew up his own career, along w/the injury, no doubt, but people pretending he wasn't an absurd talent circa 1999-2001 are in total denial. He was. Period.

    As for Pope. Elite CB, period. Wish he'd gone abroad, if he'd been born in the nineties instead of the early seventies he would've and would've built a very nice career. Again, I don't view him as a top 5 CB in the World in his prime, but I also definitely think he could've stepped right into similar situations as guys like Tyler Adams and Pulisic have today. He was smooth as silk, not above average, damn good.

    Wolff's an unknown because the knee damage happened so early, we'll never really know. Not enough career sample size. I just know what I saw circa 2000-2001 and it was super exciting, looking at his career log, its exciting, 11 goals and assists in just 4 starts/14 matches in '98, 10 goals and 2 assists in 17 starts and 28 games the next year, and then in 2000 he added 7 goals and 4 assists in 20 starts and 25 matches played for 34 goals and assists in 67 games before injuries derailed much of the following three years. I don't know what might have happened, but there were flashes of something that we are underrating, what we do know is that he bagged 2 goals at the Sydney Olympics, scored 3 goals in his first two games against Mexico (2 in a qualifier) and then he blew out his knee, and was basically largely offline for much of the next half decade until just before WC '06. He's a might've been too me, but too little sample size to know for sure.

    We saw what O'Brien was, we don't need to rehash that. There was plenty of evidence he might've been the very best player on the '02 team period, but his period of good health was so so so short, that we'll never know anything at all, we just have that brilliant WC '02 to look at, and then, snap, like Keyser Soze, he's gone.
     
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  4. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    For this comparison, Euro opportunities are of less importance than the opportunities that have emerged domestically over the past decade. Simply put, players of Dempsey and Donovan's generation weren't afforded the opportunities provided by today's MLS Academies.

    A player like Busio, then living in North Carolina, could have his mom cold call SKC's youth academy. The result: he was able to live in KC and train under Michel Ribeiro, before graduating to the senior squad.
     
  5. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    The Mickey Mouse Club or The breakfast Club
    May 4, 2002
    Limbo
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Or to state it as I believe is more correct: Players of Dempsey and Donovan's generation weren't Ruined by today's MLS Academies and even more so by playing in the MLS where thuggery is rewarded and skill by domestic players is hamstrung. You do not learn much if every time you touch the ball someone fouls you and if it is at an important part of the match particularly it goes uncalled. The MLS referees are the worst I have seen in any league above the rec level. They say they do not want to impact the game but by letting fouls go they impact the game much more than they would by at least trying to make the correct call. MLS refs are cowards.

    The coaching I have seen at the academics also serves to hurt development. Most coaches there are simply cookie cutter duplicates of everything that is wrong with MLS players. I watched a practice session a couple of years ago and what I saw was appalling. The coaches spent a good deal of time trying to teach how to foul and get away with it. They really spent very little time working on actual skills and trying to develop a "soccer mind."

    I would like to think that what I saw was an exception but, judging by the players thuggery during play in the MLS, they teach how to foul quite often.

    It is my belief that the US would be better off without the MLS. Yes we needed and currently need a good league but the MLS in its current form hurts development of young players much more than it helps.
     
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  6. Maximum Optimal

    Maximum Optimal Member+

    Jul 10, 2001
    Yes. The current group of young stars has a superior club pedigree to previous groups. No doubt about that.
     
  7. Master O

    Master O Member+

    Jul 7, 2006
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  8. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    The Mickey Mouse Club or The breakfast Club
    May 4, 2002
    Limbo
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    It sounds like he has been taking talking points from Trump.
    "The U.S. has won the past three Women's World Cups, including last year's event in France."​
    I do not believe that is true at all two yes three no. In fact Japan won the 2001 WWC and Germany won in 2003 and 2007. I hope he was looking into the future and we will win a third in a row BUT that is a quite long ways off. He is demonstrating the same intelligence that seems to have went into the men's coaching and other choices that have been made. I think we would be better off with a chimpanzee running US soccer.
     
  9. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    not to get political but I could see trump as a senior FIFA official.
     
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  10. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    It sounds delusional, but we know where Infantino is coming from.
    The USSF development academy is only about 12 years old. More than half of MLS has been founded since 2011, and most of those clubs are only just starting to figure out their youth development initiatives.

    We just really got started, and we have an assembly line of young teens heading to big clubs in Europe. We hear about them on the youth boards every week. The group of Adams, Pulisic, Sargent, and McKennie were just the leading edge of this wave. There's more and more and more coming.

    One can envision a future 25 years from now in which MLS academies are just absolute monsters. We're babies at it now, and are starting to do really well. The team that started the earliest is FCD, and they're just a machine developing players for themselves and for Europe. Maybe even more importantly they've developed scouting and recruiting networks to identify kids like Chris Richards and Chris Cappis.

    What happens when the entire league is operating at the level that FCD is now. And what do the early adopters like NYRB, RLS, LAG, FCD, etc. look like 10 years from now? 25 years from now?
     
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  11. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    The Mickey Mouse Club or The breakfast Club
    May 4, 2002
    Limbo
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    What I would expect is a bunch of players that play like thugs and do not really have any quality and cannot think like good soccer players.

    Any good players we have need to get as far away from the MLS as quickly as possible before the MLS system ruins then.
     
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  12. NGV

    NGV Member+

    Sep 14, 1999
    I think the thing to understand about Donovan's lack of European club accomplishments is that in order to get playing time at CL-contending European team in a big league, being a very good player or a great prospect isn't enough. You might have to be the specific kind of very good player that the team thinks they need at the time, or have to beat out another very good player that they already have (I've made the same point in discussions about Pulisic's early lack of playing time at Chelsea). For example, Thomas Muller didn't become a first-team regular at Bayern until 20, for example - I'm sure he was already a very good player at 19, even when he was in the reserves.

    Both at the beginning and later on, Donovan could have stuck around and would have almost certainly found his way to first-team ball and a regular starting spot somewhere in Europe. When he decided to go to MLS instead of waiting, he became an immediate national team regular, and (within a year) a US hero at the World Cup. He then went on to be a crucial part of basically everything good that the national team did during the following decade. So I don't blame him for not second-guessing the decision to spend his most of his playing career in the USA.

    All that said, the club accomplishments of Pulisic, Adams, etc. aren't just about having made different choices - I think they're fundamentally at a different level than Donovan and Dempsey, at least in terms of their ability at the same age and long-term potential. On balance, Donovan was something like Tim Cahill - good enough to be an all-time great and World Cup hero for his (non-soccer power) country, and to perform well at any level of club ball, but not usually in the conversation about the very best in the world at their position.

    The difference between this group of youth players and the previous best US youth classes is not only that the top end is higher, but also that the Cahill- level prospects now seem more common.
     
  13. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I can't disagree with you more.

    Most of the best prospects have gone through MLS academies of late, including the slick attackers.
     
  14. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    The Mickey Mouse Club or The breakfast Club
    May 4, 2002
    Limbo
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    That may be true but I think that the MLS hampers development mainly because of the stupid "playoffs" and the extremely poor referees. Also the lack of a promotion/relegation system means that there is little incentive for owners to really work toward getting the best development for their team.

    Like I said we need a league but the MLS is a very poor league for development but it is a good place for over the hill foreign players to showcase their diminishing talents before retirement. Of course those over the hill players do not get the real MLS experience as they are protected and fouls are actually called when it looks like it might hurt those old guys.
     
  15. RalleeMonkey

    RalleeMonkey Member+

    Aug 30, 2004
    here
    In a way, I'm like "thank goodness there is no pro/rel." If teams thought they might get booted out of the league, they may not play any American players at all. MLS doesn't give a rat's ass about developing players for the NT.
     
  16. DHC1

    DHC1 Member+

    Jun 3, 2002
    NYC
    Can't it be somewhere between a disaster and an overwhelming success?
     
  17. FanOfFutbol

    FanOfFutbol Member+

    The Mickey Mouse Club or The breakfast Club
    May 4, 2002
    Limbo
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    The remedy for that is using the English system of requiring a minimum number of domestic players. I also think it should be harder for foreign players to play in the MLS if we want the MLS to actually develop players.

    I do not really want to see the "Over the Hill Gang" play soccer but I would like for US players to actually develop. Unfortunately the MLS is here to stay and will never, at least not within my lifetime, have promotion/relegation so we are just doomed to be a second rate soccer nation forever because the current models even with the academies just will not work without major changes.
     
  18. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    #118 IndividualEleven, Jan 23, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2020
    Dempsey and Donovan were world class players at international level. Their records in major international tournaments likely won't be surpassed for at least a generation.

    Neither had the benefit of the a youth professional academy to prepare him for the rigors of professional life. In terms of club accomplishments, the academies make for the primary difference between them and the later groups.

    Busio, Cannon, McKennie, Adams, Gio, and Davies are all products of MLS academies. This group of elite players will multiply over the following decade.
     
  19. ttrevett

    ttrevett Member+

    Apr 2, 2002
    Atlanta, GA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    Chuck Blazer lived in Trump Tower. You know there was some relationship between those two. I'm shocked Trump didn't see the grift-possibilities in FIFA back in the day and wind his way into that corporate structure. Missed opportunity there for the Donald.
     
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  20. 50/50 Ball

    50/50 Ball Member+

    Sep 6, 2006
    USA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    I think it is just that,better than before but with a lot of room for improvement. I object to the idea that MLS is a net negative.
     
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  21. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    He had gotten burned in that pro football venture.
     
  22. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    The overwhelming majority of prospects can't move to Europe until they're 18 (some with Euro passports like Pulisic and Reyna can move at 16). So THE ONLY way for the quality of our prospects to improve is for the MLS and DA programs to improve over the next 25 years.

    Weston McKennie was at the FC Dallas academy for 7 years. He moved to the Bundesliga and was playing first team soccer within a calendar year. Gio Reyna is now playing first team soccer within a calendar year after moving from NYCFC. Pulisic was playing within a calendar year of moving to Germany. Tyler Adams moved to the Bundesliga and was playing for a top 4 caliber team right away. I can keep going with endless examples.

    Our MLS and DA academies are really starting to churn out prospects that Euro clubs want. Just like they do with ARgentine or Brazilian or Mexican kids.................they're gonna have to pay to get them. Like Gladbach just paid for Joe Scally from NYCFC.
     
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  23. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Knock off the political crap. We come here to avoid it.
     
  24. ttrevett

    ttrevett Member+

    Apr 2, 2002
    Atlanta, GA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I miss the days when you could opine about the Donald without being political. He was such a fun target.
     
  25. IndividualEleven

    Mar 16, 2006
    Still is. The poster is just got triggered, especially considering the post wasn't even political.
     

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