Argentina : Copa America 2019 discussion

Discussion in 'Argentina: Selecciones Nacionales' started by Rattlehead, Jun 5, 2019.

  1. afar

    afar Member+

    Apr 26, 2007
    Both Paraguay and Qatar defenses didn’t look too great — maybe they will play a more closed down approach vs. us — don’t know, but they didn’t look too good today.

    We just need a proper win to get the confidence up.
     
  2. Rattlehead

    Rattlehead Member+

    Jun 21, 2010
    Jakarta
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    #252 Rattlehead, Jun 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
    Again, Chile lost against us in 2016 group stage and the won the tournament. I wonder if their fans has the same negative spirit as us after one lost at group stage... :D Football isnt always what's written on paper. You cant explain how Germany with their perfect 10/10 qualifier record getting dominated by Mexico and S Korea, but it happened.

    We only got 1 point from first 2 games in recent WC and still qualified. Sure, that by hanging on other team result aswell but if we beat Paraguay , our fate would still be in our hand. Hell, there's no guarentee Colombia will win their next 2 games.

    We need De Paul to start and help to threaten Paraguay from the wing. Scolani will never be able make this team passing the ball around smoothly like Pekerman's day or countering fast like Sabella's team

    I cant believe we actually going back to "pass to Messi in midfield" strategy against Colombia. If you notice, Lo Celso who played mostly in center against Nicaragua was being played out of position as right winger cause Scolani didnt have trust in him to handle the creative role. He's basically chickened out and reverting back to the same old stuff, lets pass the ball to Messi in midfield while he's being marked by 3 defenders.

    This is why I Wont blame Lo Celso subdued performance since we're expecting him to handle the creative role with Messi partnering with Kun in final third but we ended up playing so defensively with Lo Celso being tasked as a right winger who needs to track back all the way to our goalkick line. Yea, there's couple of moments where he literally did that.
     
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  3. Milwaukee Joe

    Milwaukee Joe Member

    Jun 23, 2018
    Another thing that drove me crazy in Saturday's game was the fact Armani punted the ball high in the air towards Aguero, like Aguero is ever going to win a ball in the air against Colombia's defenders. Our defenders did the same thing, long high balls towards Aguero. It was pitiful. We had no confidence to play out from the back. There just wasn't a pattern of play and this all comes down to the coaching.
     
  4. balazsriver10

    balazsriver10 Member

    May 23, 2013
    Debrecen
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Nat'l Team:
    Hungary
    It is incomprehensible that there isn't better DMF in Argentina than Pizzaro and G.Rodriguez?
     
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  5. pregra

    pregra Member

    Barcelona
    Argentina
    Dec 1, 2008
    Norway
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Against Paraguay and Qatar I'd like to see us actually be on the front foot. Play two strikers with Messi behind, let's go at them and outscore them instead of this controlled play shit, doesn't work anyway.
     
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  6. DTCrackheads

    DTCrackheads Member

    Barcelona
    Argentina
    Mar 9, 2019
    Haha indeed.

    There are, they're called Ascacibar, Escalante, and Battaglia (unfortunately injured).
     
  7. SupaMario

    SupaMario Member+

    Aug 31, 2009
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    CA Tigre
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Menossi has been amazing this year. Can defend, shoot with either foot, has vision, a shocker he wasn’t given a serious look. But he’ll apparently get his chance at the Pan-Am games.
     
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  8. pipinogol

    pipinogol Member

    May 20, 2016
    Club:
    Cary RailHawks U23
    Escalante lmao. If he's good why has he been playing for Eibar 4 years?
     
  9. afar

    afar Member+

    Apr 26, 2007
    https://golazoargentino.com/2019/06...-a-night-of-few-positives-for-la-albiceleste/

    Franco Armani – 5
    At no fault for either of the goals yet Franco Armani simply does not transmit the confidence he does when between the posts at club level. A dreadful pass to Nicolás Otamendi during the first half almost gifted Colombia a goal.



    Renzo Saravia – 3
    The new Porto right-back was left isolated by his Argentina teammates but in Renzo Saravia’s ongoing audition for the long-term position it was a bitter blow. Both Colombia goals came down Saravia’s side once the Cafeteros realised just how much space there was around the already booked full-back. Roger Martínez took full advantage for the opener and was able to simply roll in Jefferson Lerma on the overlap to set-up number two.


    Germán Pezzella – 5

    Much of it didn’t look exactly controlled but Germán Pezzella managed to keep on top of Radamel Falcao and made one vital block to deny the Colombian captain during the goalless first half. With Argentina stretched late on, Pezzella lost track of Duvan Zapata and the substitute found the space between the two centre-backs to double the lead.



    Nicolás Otamendi – 5
    Strong in the air and physical in the tackle as ever, Nicolás Otamendi drew a good stop from David Ospina in the second half. However, a reckless back-pass to Franco Armani that caused panic and a failure to pick up Duvan Zapata for Colombia’s second meant it was an evening to forget.




    Nicolás Tagliafico – 6
    The best of what was a poor Argentina defence, Nicolás Tagliafico was as committed as ever but still struggled. James Rodríguez and Juan Cuadrado made life uncomfortable for the Ajax full-back yet Tagliafico fought for everything and where possible tried to get forward to aid the attack.


    Guido Rodríguez – 4

    A difficult evening for Guido Rodríguez who failed to impose himself on the game and was booked for a challenge on Cuadrado before half time. It was perhaps with this caution in mind that Scaloni replaced the Club América midfielder for Guido Pizarro after 66 minutes.



    Leandro Paredes – 6
    There was no lack of effort from Leandro Paredes and certainly a marked improvement after the break but it still wasn’t the performance that so many expect from the PSG midfielder. Regularly tipped as the future of Argentina’s core, Paredes found life difficult during the first 45 minutes, at least in possession, but the 24-year-old did make some useful tackles. However, Paredes was able to show more quality after the break with two good long range efforts that went close and far more influence with the ball.



    Giovani Lo Celso – 5
    Shifted out onto the right for much of the game it was hardly an ideal position to get the best out of Giovani Lo Celso. Given the daunting task of becoming Messi’s deputy, the Real Betis playmaker tried to remain close and provide the passing options but just couldn’t generate an influence on the game.




    Lionel Messi – 6
    Another deeply frustrating evening for Lionel Messi in an Argentina shirt. Swarmed by Colombian players, Messi was unable to shake off the attention of Wilmar Barrios and aside from a couple of flashes of his talent the captain was unable to save La Albiceleste. A lofted pass to Sergio Agüero came close to fashioning a first half opener and a trademark burst into the box almost created something but ultimately an off-target headed chances and two weak free-kicks will be what most will remember of Messi’s contribution.


    Sergio Agüero – 4
    A return to the national team for Sergio Agüero and a game that will have the Manchester City striker wondering if he made the right choice. A plentiful supply line at club level sees Agüero remain as one of the best in Europe but completely cut off from the attack, Argentina’s third-top goal scorer was made to toil up against the the domineering Yerry Mina and Davinson Sánchez. Virtually a spectator, Lionel Scaloni then inexplicably replaced Agüero with Matías Suárez when Argentina were in need of a goal.


    Ángel Di María – 3
    Hauled off at the break after a virtually anonymous first 45 minutes, Ángel Di María keeps on getting chances for Argentina but surely El Fideo’s days are numbered. His pace out on the left was never utilised and Di María simply couldn’t add anything to Argentina’s efforts.




    Substitutes


    Rodrigo de Paul – 5
    A bright start when initially introduced, within five minutes Rodrigo de Paul had already contributed more than Di María managed in 45. The Udinese wideman’s ability to drop deep to pick up the ball into feet and drift inside saw De Paul far more involved and for the spell of Argentine pressure, the Racing academy product linked up with Messi and took on the full-back. His early influence did wane but surely it was enough to suggest De Paul starts over Di María against Paraguay.



    Guido Pizarro – 4
    Replaced Guido Rodríguez after 66 minutes to protect the defence and soon after Colombia led. Pizarro certainly wasn’t solely at fault for the goals but also didn’t cover himself in glory in the role.


    Matías Suárez – 4
    Only Lionel Scaloni really knows why Matías Suárez was chosen to replace Sergio Agüero when Argentina were chasing the game but to no surprise the River Plate forward made no impact on the game.






    Coach

    Lionel Scaloni – 3
    Talk of keeping things solid so the ‘dynamite’ attack can do the damage was made to look all the more foolish when Argentina couldn’t even find Messi or Agüero. Di María’s return on the left was an error, Lo Celso was stranded out of position and the substitutions, particularly Suárez coming on for Agüero when Argentina needed a goal, were ill-judged. Carlos Queiroz out-thought and out-witted Scaloni leaving La Albiceleste with much to think about ahead of Wednesday’s game with Paraguay.
     
  10. RiverGaucho

    RiverGaucho Member+

    Jan 23, 2010
    Buenos Aires
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I'm amazed that some people are positive. No team with Scaloni will be successful. The guy is a clown. He never tried to play a team in the friendlies, constantly playing one team, then an entirely different XI in the following match. I never saw a coach, not even Maradona, employ this tactic to prepare for an international tournament.

    Not only is this team handicapped by the moron Scaloni, but it has a slew of truly god awful players... Renzo Saravia lost his starting spot at the end of the season for Racing to Ivan Pillud... why was he even called up much, less starting? When did he ever show that he was NT material?

    Otamendi? Seriously? How is this guy called up. Did he even go to the bench for Man City at the end up of the season? He's also always been awful for Argentina, especially in the world cup last june.

    Guido Rodriguez- As a River socio, I have seen this guy live many times since he first came up and he was a woeful player. In Mexico, he is apparently a big star, but any Argentine/Uruguayan/Colombian from our league can go there and probably play for the NT. Guido should be playing for Mexico in CONCACAF Gold Cup, not with Argentina in Copa America. He should play the likes of El Salvador, Curacao, Martinique, Guatemala, not Colombia, Paraguay, etc.

    Guido Pizarro- Absolute trash. Can't even go any deeper here. A shit player anyway you look at it. Idiotic sub to bring him in. Then again, this coach was once preferred to start a world cup quarterfinal against Germany in Germany while Zanetti was at home, so maybe that's where he got the idea.

    Di Maria- What more can be said? Why was this guy called up? Surely this was the tournament to just get rid of the entire old generation... So why bring him? Because of his amazing goal against France last summer? In the end, that was his only decent moment in 4 matches. He has been woeful I'd say in 95% of the matches he's played for Argentina in his career

    Matias Suarez- I am a River fan and I will say, I don't understand why he is on the NT. He shouldn't be there. Its quite a shock to us as well. He isn't even amongst the most influential players on River's team when everyone is fit. He hasn't even been a starter for us in the biggest matches. I am as shocked as anyone he's there.

    Paredes- Why does everyone drool over this guy? Never seen anything that made me think he was special, he is an average player at best. If Scaloni's plan was to give this guy the keys to the NT, then it was always gonna crash

    Messi- I don't even know why he is bothering to turn up. I think adidas and the AFA must be forcing him to do it. He knows this team and this coach have no chance of doing anything. It's sad. All that being said, if Higuain had missed the header Messi did you all would be losing your shit.
     
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  11. afar

    afar Member+

    Apr 26, 2007
    Wow, RiverGaucho, way to burst the bubble.

    Unfortunately, everything you write makes a lot of sense.

    I have been following the Argentine NT for 40 years, and I think this is one of the lowest points that I have ever seen for us.

    Defensively, at least, this is the worst that I can recall. Pre-World Cup 86 was bad, but this is atrocious.

    I don’t know, but we may just have to accept our players are just not up to scratch right now.

    I see Brazil winning 3-0, Uruguay winning 4-0, Chile winning 4-0, albeit against weaker teams — but still.

    Guys like Edu Vargas, Alexis Sanchez, and Coutinho are shining — players who did nothing in the season concluded — and it saddens me to see Messi struggling for us and ignorant people taking potshots on his legacy.

    And the saddest part to me, at least, is that we always had a playing style, the one-touch passing, movement everywhere between technical players— along with a defensive toughness.

    And we have lost both these traits.

    Hopefully we get the win against Paraguay and get some confidence.

    But if Scaloni starts Mati Suarez and not Lautaro Wednesday — it will really tell you something.
     
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  12. Rattlehead

    Rattlehead Member+

    Jun 21, 2010
    Jakarta
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    It will tells me that someone paid him big sum of $$$ so Argentina will not spoil Brazil's party,
     
  13. Rattlehead

    Rattlehead Member+

    Jun 21, 2010
    Jakarta
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    There's rumour that Lautaro might start and also Casco to replace Saravia. Hopefully De Paul will start instead of Suarez but we'll see..
     
  14. SupaMario

    SupaMario Member+

    Aug 31, 2009
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    CA Tigre
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I don’t think you can start both Kun and Lautaro. Lautaro will struggle having to share. Throughout his time at Inter he struggled with sharing room with Icardi. He only played well last week because Dybala drifts in and out of spots and leaves Lautaro open. Either take out Kun for Lautaro and let Lautaro be the goal scorer and replace ADM for RDP. Lautaro could be more of a threat coming off the bench like ADM.

    And @afar ... how is this low point of your 40 years of watching the seleccion? We’ve had far worst teams than this by a mile. 6-1 trashing to Bolivia. 3-1 loss at home to Brasil. Hell, go back to the last qualifiers with losses to Ecuador at home and other disasters under Tata and Bauza. I just shake my head at some of the players that were used. People are just being prisoners of the moment, primo...

    I will always cheer for my side, no matter what, even if they suck,’I will cheer with my lasting breath and I will never kick my team or players when they’re down, after all they’re representing the shirt. If they’re not putting up a valiant effort than that’s where I’ve got my issues. If I see them hugging and laughing after a loss, thats when I’ve got my issues.

    Obviously, there are certain players that shouldn’t be here, but they are, so what I can do? Pout? I’ll deal with the problem in front of us when the tournament is over, if that’s in a few weeks time when we’re raising the trophy or if we’re leaving Brasil after the group stages. There is nothing I can do more than cheer for what is in front of me and id encourage others to do the same.
     
  15. Rattlehead

    Rattlehead Member+

    Jun 21, 2010
    Jakarta
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    #265 Rattlehead, Jun 17, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2019
    Yea, that's what I'm hoping. Lautaro as our #9. He has the best scoring record aswell among the younger guys and he's actually the youngest I think, only 21. He loves to make diagonal run from the right and we can threaten more than just hoping Messi to keep chipping the ball from midfield.

    I'm quite sure we all here because we love the national team regardless our comments... some always focus on negative aspect but you cant help it since we've so many close call in past 15 years without actually winning one. In other words, we all frustrated to some degree.

    Again, first match in a tournament isnt everything, Chile and Spain won all the way after losing at group stage, so there has been many examples team overcome a bad start. Even the 90 side almost went all the way despite losing their opening game.
     
  16. afar

    afar Member+

    Apr 26, 2007
    When I said low point of my 40 years, I mean this 2016-2019 era, including Bauza’s tenure.

    We had horrible results with Maradona, but we got to the QFs of the World Cup.

    We made 3 finals afterwards.

    Secondly, I am supporting and praying for them still — when I write that defensively we are atrocious, it doesn’t mean that I am not supporting them.

    I still am — because we don’t need everyone to be world class; we need to create a system where we can be more than the sum of our parts.

    See Chile, with Aranguiz, Vargas, etc....or Uruguay with Bentacur.

    When we see our team play, the term that comes to mind is “anarchic.” Even in our good passages of play, we seem all over the place and anarchy reigns.
     
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  17. SupaMario

    SupaMario Member+

    Aug 31, 2009
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    CA Tigre
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    We made it to the QF in the 2010 World Cup because we played Mexico in R16. We’ll always beat Mexico, no matter how poor we are.

    Last year’s side was far worst than what we have in front of us, from the midfield to defense. That World Cup along with 2010 are just a blur to me.

    Yes, we need to find an identity. I think some of us have talked about it. We cannot play the tiki-tiki style of our yesteryear. Pass and move is our footballing DNA and I always laugh when they credit the gallegos to bringing this style of football for the world to see. Hell, all you have to do is look at our showing 25 years ago v Greece when Diego scored his final World Cup goal. But this isn’t a part of our identity right now, Sabella perhaps understood this and brought counter-attacking football. Since then no manager has brought forward any type of identity in terms of attacking football. They all seem to shit bed when their plan goes haywire. As Tyson once stated, you’ve got a plan until you get punched in the face.

    So, we don’t have players to play a possession based game, there are some very good passers on this side by it gets static, you need to pass and move, and they can’t do the basics it seems. What is our plan? I’m not sure, they want to press at times and at times they don’t. We’ll get more answers as we move forward.

    Paraguay isn’t a good side, we shouldn’t have any problems putting them away, especially if we play the way we did in the second half v Colombia. So, maybe some good things will come out of it, we’ll just have to wait and see.
     
  18. Amuseddaysleeper

    Jul 8, 2014
    We need a game where we win with multiple goals.

    I know Nicaragua aren’t very good but we were playing some very good fluid football with lots of 1-2’s.

    Hardly saw any of that against Columbia outside of a little bit of time in the second half.

    I’m hoping we comfortably beat Paraguay to get the morale up
     
  19. asim

    asim New Member

    Nov 14, 2013
    Club:
    12 de Octubre
    Col will probably play Uru or Chile in the quarter finals while runner up of group B will play runner up of group A.
     
  20. RiverGaucho

    RiverGaucho Member+

    Jan 23, 2010
    Buenos Aires
    Club:
    CA River Plate
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    The era of Maradona was a disaster and a low point for sure, but everyone knew Maradona was a clown and would soon be gone. He was never going to be the DT after 2010. In a way, the 2010 Campaign was wasted, but Messi was still just 23, Aguero 21, Di Maria 21, Mascherano 26, Higuain 22, etc. we knew we had two more world cups with these top players... Despite all the disaster of the maradona campaign, there was reason to think Argentina would win the 2014 world cup as we were clearly one of the favorites. Remember even Pastore back then was considered a future star.

    This is worse because each hire by the AFA is worse. Tata, Bauza, Sampalobby, and now Scaloni. One worse than the other. When Maradona was in charge we could at least hope that a serious coach would be brought in. Now, I honestly wouldn't be surprised if the next guy they turned to was Humbertito Grondona.
     
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  21. benos

    benos Member

    Nov 28, 2007
    Put Foyth as an DM can solve 2 problems. The first is that Pizarro and Rodriguez are not NT level, not defensively and for sure not offensively. so replacing them with Foyth can't weaken the team in the field. The second is that adding another defender makes the team stronger in set pieces and Argentina is pretty vulnerable in this area.

    Put De Paul instead of Angelito is obvious.
     
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  22. Rattlehead

    Rattlehead Member+

    Jun 21, 2010
    Jakarta
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Whatever the line up is, we're most likely doomed if we doesnt score in first half. A first half goal and lead will be very deciding in this game, or at least goal within 60 minutes. A draw would benefit them more than us but if we scores first, they'll have no choice but to attack rather than park the bus and trying to frustrate us.

    I can see them rolling on floor forever from smallest contact like most our opponents does if we doesnt score after an hour mark , we will conceided in last quarter of the game as usual.
     
  23. Rattlehead

    Rattlehead Member+

    Jun 21, 2010
    Jakarta
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Its hard to tell at this point how this tournament will unfold... its still too early.
    I mean , if Qatar somehow surprise everyone and earn a point or 3 points against Colombia, its still possible for us to even top the group.
     
  24. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Haven't read through the whole thread and post match reaction, but I wonder if anyone else thought one of the 'problems' was having Messi and Aguero together?
    Crespo mentioned it and I agreed with him to an extent. Neither is known for their defensive output, and in football currently it's hard enough "carrying" one person, let alone two. The commentators in the stream I watched the match on kept commenting on how Colombia's keeper and defenders had so much time on the ball.
    Having Messi on the right will leave whoever is the right defender really exposed (he'd need someone like Arturo Vidal on that side to cover Messi, Lo Celso isn't that person), so Messi has to play centrally. And probably it is Aguero who loses out.

    I was thinking of a 4-3-3 with
    De Paul - Messi - Lauturo


    With Lo Celso going back to a more natural position.

    The 2nd problem I noticed was how many long balls (very inaccurate too) were played to Aguero and attempted to the flanks by the keeper and the centre backs. One of the reasons for that, I felt was that none of the two holding midfielders (Pizzaro, and Rodrigues) have the technique to build the game from deep. Perhaps Paredes drops there to dictate the game from deep and help to break the first press, while Lo Celso organises in the 2nd phase (with Messi dropping deep of course). The third midfielder would have to have an incredible engine, perhaps Pereyra would be that midfielder.

    Hindsight is 20/20 but I feel some of Argentina's flaws are fixable even during this tournament, but some big decisions would have to be made.
     
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  25. afar

    afar Member+

    Apr 26, 2007
    Or Foyth as a defensive midfielder.

    Lautaro should press a lot more than Aguero.
     

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