Argentina : Copa America 2019 discussion

Discussion in 'Argentina: Selecciones Nacionales' started by Rattlehead, Jun 5, 2019.

  1. NussMasri

    NussMasri Member

    Nov 14, 2016
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    The last time we played Messi upfront was against France and that didn't work.

    He also doesn't pay upfront in Barcelona.

    He is the most creative player on the field, so need to incorporate him into both midfield and attack, just need to figure out the right mix around him.
     
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  2. afar

    afar Member+

    Apr 26, 2007
    I think, apart from injuries, these 23 are the best players we have for us.

    I mean Icardi shot himself in the foot, Dybala has had a bad season, Palacios and Zaracho got injured.

    Romero probably could have been called in defense....

    So all we can do is support these players.

    For me, personally, Di Maria and Aguero need to be subs.

    Lautaro - Messi
    De Paul - Lo Celso - Paredes - Pereyra
    Defense
    Armani

    We just have to give it our best, and hope we get some luck.

    For a period of 20-25 minutes, we played really well.
     
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  3. Rattlehead

    Rattlehead Member+

    Jun 21, 2010
    Jakarta
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    #228 Rattlehead, Jun 15, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
    As far as for selection, yea its close to the best if not the best. Everyone has their preference so there will never be the best squad that fits everyone's wish...but its still solid squad.

    Aguero has been competing in 4 tournaments for City, he's physically burnt out and it was obvious. He's not suppose to be this slow regardless the lack services. He never really try to sneak behind the center backs and very static for his standard, no pace whatsover.

    Colombia isnt much more talented , only two shots on target proof they're not exactly superior team but they outplayed us physically in long stretch. After 60 minutes, every 50:50 situation (both aerial and ground) was won by Colombian players.

    That first goal was very similar to Baptista's goal in 2007 final. Everything was in balance (we're actually better) and then we got countered once and they scored within their first real chance. I already predict we will conceided another after seering our players has became much slower than them.

    I'd start Lo Celso and De Paul for next game. If we lose, I'm cool with it because at least we've tried the best we what we currently have. Di Maria hasnt been playing with many of these guys, yet Scolani managed to brought him into starting 11. In recent friendlies, he subbed out Suarez for Lautaro and he got two goals, but we did Scolani do today? he subbed out Kun with that 30+ years old Suarez. Amazing.
     
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  4. Leon12

    Leon12 Member+

    Jan 5, 2006
    Man of the world
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I can't see us winning the Copa because oyr twam isn't good enough, but more important that that our players are mentally weak when they play for the NT, they are broken men.
     
  5. Edhardy

    Edhardy Member+

    Sep 4, 2013
    Nairobi, Kenya
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Both goals came down Argentina's right side. Saravia's side.
     
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  6. Rattlehead

    Rattlehead Member+

    Jun 21, 2010
    Jakarta
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Sorry , yea its from right side. Ive been thinking from Colombia point of view in my previous post.
     
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  7. Varnagel

    Varnagel Member

    Nothing
    Sweden
    Jun 4, 2017
    Giroud took over Benzema's place as a starter for France......
     
  8. Albiceleste2010

    Albiceleste2010 Member+

    Watford
    Argentina
    Jun 5, 2010
    Watford
    Club:
    Watford FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    You have not got a clue. Nicolas is one of the best players we have. He has the right mentality in spades. His defensive awareness is second to none as his willingness to run himself into the ground. When given the opportunity to attack he can do so with effect.

    In our chaotic system he has to play a stay at home role to cover the CBs. People attacked him last year also know nothing about football.
     
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  9. Leon12

    Leon12 Member+

    Jan 5, 2006
    Man of the world
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    The brutal reality is we do not have a single top quality defender, you could make a case for Otamendi but Pep hardly played him in last few months of the season. On top of that we barely have adequate goalkeepers, it is what it is, sometimes you have to be more than the sum of your parts, but that is dependent on having a good manager.
     
  10. Albiceleste2010

    Albiceleste2010 Member+

    Watford
    Argentina
    Jun 5, 2010
    Watford
    Club:
    Watford FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    In the pressing game most teams employ he might as well be a traffic cone. You have to be mobile enough to carry the ball not just pass it.

    If we want a midfielder to play five yard passes side to side and backwards lets bring back Biglia. A couple of passes into players who were facing away from goal and who then had to give it back. That is not incisive.

    The best central midfielders create space for themselves dribble past an opponent and play passes that lead to chances. He is none of that. Too slow and too slow in his decision making.

    The hype around him is ridiculous. We were lost in midfield. There is a reason Guido and Pizarro play in the Mexican league. Slow cumbersome and unable to contribute much in defence or attack. Add Paredes and we are losing any creativity and ability to recover the ball. Because they are so slow we sat deep. Bring in Foyth. At least under pressure he can play himself out of a tight spot. Guido just loses the ball aimlessly.

    And as for Saravia it would help if Messi did track back. We don't expect it of him but it would have been nice if Guido came over more but did not.

    Di Maria thanks for the goals against the Swiss, Chile and France but your time is nearly done with the seleccion. How de Paul was left to start on the bench beats me.

    It's not hindsight. I posted my preferred line up and tactics. I know what we need how and earth Scaloni a former professional does not is mind boggling. There is simply not enough in midfield. It's hard enough to lose Palacios but to not have Santi in there well.

    At least with de Paul we established some sort of press higher up and raised the tempo and they scored against the run of play after we had our golden chance.

    Armani looks ever so shaky in goal. Again a mystery what he is doing in there. His distribution is poor and he tried to his best impression of Caballero. Why an earth Musso, Benitez are not there again escapes me.

    And if Scaloni said this is to be an experimental side building for the future lets build now. Bring in Santi, Foyth, Palacios and Lo Celso as the mids. Instead of Kun El Toro. Again we need a goal he takes Kun off.

    Now how will that affect the dressing room ? Kun did not look best pleased. He did look a little lacklustre but after the lack of ball in the first half when the team as a whole sat ever so deep what can he do. Messi looked just as ineffectual.

    And as I said before you need to win the ball in midfield before anything else. With the two donkeys we had in Paredes and Guido you are playing with nine. You are not going to get your forwards into the game and your defence is not going to be shielded by these two snails.

    Scaloni has fallen between two stools and he now has to make a choice. Go with youth which is what I would do and see how far it takes us. At least with El Toro, Foyth etc you have energy, speed and plenty of technical ability. We need that in spades after the lethargy on display last night.

    And let us not forget what has put us here. The AFA. A shambles still. Scaloni would be nowhere near this job but for their mismanagement. Compare them to the UAR and how Argentine rugby at all levels is going from strength to strength. The UAR have initiative after initiative. They listen to the players and clubs and they make changes when they are needed to improve the sport from coaching to player welfare and contracts. They are not afraid to fire inadequate coaches or seek expertise from abroad. Chalk and cheese. Perhaps because the people in the UAR are of a higher educational strata for a start and not beset by corruption or personal greed.

    A pitiful performance. Even if we make the next round with displays like last night the team can prepare for their holidays and Scaloni for a P45. Abysmal.
     
  11. Rattlehead

    Rattlehead Member+

    Jun 21, 2010
    Jakarta
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    They still played 19 year old Mbappe the whole tournament. Argentina usually intergrated young players pretty fast aswell. Messi, Aguero ,Di Maria, Tevez, Saviola all had plenty of caps already in their early 20s... even Lavezzi.

    But now Argentina has been using same attacking players almost a decade straight since around 2009-2010.If Higuain hasnt retired, he'll probably earn another call up.

    When Icardi & Dybala did play under Sampa, its either as a late sub or being subbed early... basically just cameo appearences.
     
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  12. Albiceleste2010

    Albiceleste2010 Member+

    Watford
    Argentina
    Jun 5, 2010
    Watford
    Club:
    Watford FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    And that makes everything better ? So what. That happens in football. The lack of performance in the first half, the negativity, the lack of a midfield, tempo and inability to retain the ball should be what is concerning. The way we raised the game in the second well we could not do any worse. You have to play and seize control from the get go.

    Our teams of a previous vintage had no issues with that and would have swept Colombia aside. We really are at a nadir.
     
  13. Rattlehead

    Rattlehead Member+

    Jun 21, 2010
    Jakarta
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    We beat Colombia 3-0 under the "great" Bauza. Either Colombia has improved alot or we've been sinkin further, or both.
     
  14. Leon12

    Leon12 Member+

    Jan 5, 2006
    Man of the world
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    We are sinking further.
     
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  15. Leon12

    Leon12 Member+

    Jan 5, 2006
    Man of the world
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    You make a good point, in 1978 a 17 year old Maradona doesn't even make the squad, in 2006 against Germany an 18 year old Messi watches the whole game sat on the bench whilst Pekerhead threw the game. Deschamps is a very conservative coach, yet he had no problem picking an 19 year old Mbappe as a starter in the world cup
     
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  16. Milwaukee Joe

    Milwaukee Joe Member

    Jun 23, 2018
    First half was a total embarrassment. One shot on goal, no chances, no attacks to speak of. Disjointed, terrible football. Second half was much better but did we really look like scoring? Maybe once or twice but we were playing Colombia, we weren't playing a top nation, we should be much better but our expectations have fallen so low we probably don't expect anything more.

    I've felt for a long time Messi needs to go, Aguero needs to go, Di Maria definitely needs to go. They've had so many chances, they are broken before the game even begins. Give some new players a chance.

    Messi is a pampered footballer, he came through an elite academy, he plays for the most powerful club in the world. He doesn't have the personality to lead Argentina, where everything is a bit more chaotic than he's used to, where the odds are stacked against you much more. He's one of the greatest players that ever lived of course and he's still by far Argentina's best player but I feel Argentina would have more of a chance without him. It's been tried, it's failed so many times. Are we honestly going to wait till Dybala is 30 years old before he gets a chance? Maybe Argentina will be more successful without Messi, without Aguero. Maybe. They could hardly be less successful. This is embarrassing.

    Of course they've suffered through having terrible coaches at the helm, this is an unforgiveable mistake by the AFA. They've had the best player in the world for nearly 15 years, they've had a golden generation of players, but they couldn't get the coach or the structure to get the best out of them. Shameful. That's their job and they have failed spectacularly.

    You need a coach that's prepared to take the captaincy off Messi, who's prepared to substitute Messi, who's prepared to leave him on the bench and treat him as any other player. That would really help Messi. Take the burden off him. Tell him he's not taking every free-kick and corner. Tell him times have changed and you're trying something new, something that is less dependent on him, and if he doesn't like it he can go, simple as that. We need a coach with authority.

    Paredes was good last night, he was the only one that enhanced his reputation. It's amazing that our previous coach preferred Biglia to him. When will Argentina get themselves a good coach? It doesn't even have to be a competent coach, just somebody who isn't a total moron.

    Last night Argentina finally started playing well, in the second half, we started knocking the ball about, linking up with each other, we started playing more fluidly and playing more progressively. What does Scaloni do? He makes a substitution. He takes off one DM and puts on another. Why? Why change anything in that moment, when finally it is looking good, when finally they are clicking, why change the dynamic? Shortly after we were 1-0 down.

    I would take out Messi, Aguero and Di Maria for the next game but our manager doesn't have the balls.
     
  17. NussMasri

    NussMasri Member

    Nov 14, 2016
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    The most obvious issues for me yesterday were:

    1) how many missed passes we had going forward

    2) how little we gave the ball to the greatest footballer on earth
     
  18. tatoRMN

    tatoRMN Member

    Oct 21, 2008
    Georgia
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    #243 tatoRMN, Jun 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
    Most upsetting in this situation is, that beside the coach's incompetence, the team doesn't have enough resource to cover some positions. DM, RB, CB (Pezzella) and GK positions are most problematic. Whole day I think how could Scaloni solve these problems. About GK nothing to say. I'm not sure, if it will be good move, to throw against Paraguay either Musso or Marchesin. Best is to leave this position to Armani and pray, that he won't do something, like yesterday did, passing to Otamendi a la Caballero. Same I can say about Pezzela. It will be very risky to throw on his position inexperienced Foyth. May be FM could be used there, but not sure, taking in account his form fol last months. For other 3 positions there are just 2 players, I hope somehow could solve problems: Foyth and Perreyra.

    Scenario 1: Scaloni could use Foyth as DM using as RB Casco or Saravia again. Then for other three positions of midfield could be used three from Paredes, Lo Celso, De Paul and Perreyra. Tactically I'm sure, that Lo Celso must be in center and not locked on right side. So, if Foyth is DM and Lo Celso CM I'd use De Paul on left side and there are Paredes or Perreyra for Right side. I think both can give something to the team Paredes was undoubtedly best yesterday in midfield passing very clever and even contributing pretty well in defence, what isn't his strongest side.

    Scenario 2: Same, but Perreyra instead Paredes, who can carry ball and is useful for transmission from defence, to attack. Also, he can help defence well.

    Scenario 3: To put Foyth as RB, who will cover that zone from oppositions counter-attacks and put as only DM Paredes alongside with Perreyra on right side, De Paul on left and Lo Celso in center.

    I think yesterday game showed that both Guido's aren't national team material. They gave nothing to the team, and more: for both goals Pizzaro also was responsible: in first case he was too slow to shut down that zone and in second, he was just spectating from two meters how Zapata was scoring.

    Sorry for such long post and my english 20190616_173726.jpeg 20190616_172735.jpeg 20190616_154747.jpeg
     
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  19. Pipiolo

    Pipiolo Member+

    Jul 19, 2008
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    What a disaster, hopefully it will get better.
     
  20. SupaMario

    SupaMario Member+

    Aug 31, 2009
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    CA Tigre
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    RDP could replace ADM in the match v Paraguay. Good. ADM should only be used as some type of sub, if that.
     
  21. Rattlehead

    Rattlehead Member+

    Jun 21, 2010
    Jakarta
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    #246 Rattlehead, Jun 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
    For now, Lautaro is the only young player that seems capable of becoming our future #9, and we've yet to see him in any competitive match. He's only 21 which is 1 WC cycle younger than Icardi and Dybala, and a decade younger than M Suarez.

    ....and as I mentioned earlier, Lautaro replaced M Suarez against Nicaragua and scored twice. Who did he put when we're a goal down? M Suarez instead of Lautaro:whistling:. Suarez didnt even do that much against team like Nicaragua. He's literally another version of Palacio and Cruz.

    Lautaro should have had at least few games in major tournament by now. If he's doesnt play in next two games and Di Maria appear again in starting line up, then Scolani will make us stuck with those 2 until 2022, or until he gets fired.

    I'm expecting this would be Lautaro chance to get experience in competitive game. Dybala probably wont be turning into player we're expecting him to be and Icardi pretty much out of the picture (at least for time being).
     
  22. pregra

    pregra Member

    Barcelona
    Argentina
    Dec 1, 2008
    Norway
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Judging by the first 30 mins of Paraguay v Qatar, I’d honestly be surprised if Argentina doesn’t finish bottom of the group. Heck, I doubt we’ll manage to even score a single goal at this tournament. This looks like it could be an all-time low. Ffs...
     
  23. SupaMario

    SupaMario Member+

    Aug 31, 2009
    Los Angeles
    Club:
    CA Tigre
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    That’s the spirit!

    :rolleyes:
     
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  24. soul24rage

    soul24rage Member

    Jun 13, 2009
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Well Qatar-Paraguay game ended in a draw. We must beat Paraguay while hoping Colombia gets at least a point vs Qatar. The only thing that makes me hopeful is if we can build on the performance from the beg. of the 2nd half till Colombia's 1st goal. In the good and the bad moments, vamos Argentina carajo.
     
  25. DTCrackheads

    DTCrackheads Member

    Barcelona
    Argentina
    Mar 9, 2019
    #250 DTCrackheads, Jun 16, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
    Colombia is a tough side, and let's not forget they topped their group in WC2018.

    Colombia is tall and physical. Our guys like Messi, Aguero, and ADM didn't want to fight too much. Aguero didn't run too much at all and he looks kind of fat.

    Saravia is weak and both goals came down his side. He had one decent friendly game and we don't give him any more time with the team, just gift him the starting RB role. I honestly think Mercado could be better here. More solid.

    Our team is so short and weak, it is sad to see them kick corners and free kicks and try to head the ball and not have any chance to get it. We need some height and strength (I'm looking at you Icardi, you really could have been the future).

    Even Otamendi looks small out there. He is listed at 6' but doesn't look like it. He sure is a loose cannon with his tackles. Same hair as Aguero, lol.

    I wish we had Icardi to put some kind of aerial threat in the box. Too bad he is such a drama queen.

    Escalante would have been a nice midfielder with some strength as well.

    Next match please start De Paul, and maybe Martinez, although I'm sure Scaloni will go with Aguero again. I think Paredes could be the lone DM against weaker sides like Qatar and Paraguay which would give us a more attack oriented midfield.
     

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