Argentina 6 Peru 0, WC 1978???

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Excape Goat, Dec 16, 2004.

  1. Excape Goat

    Excape Goat Member+

    Mar 18, 1999
    Hong Kong
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I just rewatched the highlight of the infamous Argentina-Peru WC game. The Argentine-born Peruvan keeper Ramon Quiroga had always been accused of having a bad game and gave Argentina the victory. When I saw the highlights of the game last night, I thought.... he had no chance at least 4 of the goals.

    Be objective..... did he really have a poor game?
     
  2. hoss23

    hoss23 Member

    Mar 3, 2003
    There are some good comments on this in Football Against the Enemy (Kuper; an outstanding book for this and other chapters). Allegedly, Menotti held a closed door meeting with all of Argentina's players except the goalies (As far as the relevance of this...not really sure. Perhaps he didn't want the goalie to know of the alleged fix and potentially have his guard down?). Also, Kuper alleges that the government forgave a significant amount of Peruvian debt either on the eve of the game or very close to it. I have also heard that the Peruvian goalie admitted to a fix some time later after a few too many cocktails.

    Notwithstanding the comments above, Argentina had an excellent team and the type of crowd support that will likely never be witnessed again at a World Cup. I know Peru was much stronger in the 1970's than they are today; however, Argentina had a lot of skill and a lot of chemistry.
     
  3. Excape Goat

    Excape Goat Member+

    Mar 18, 1999
    Hong Kong
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Peru actually did very well in the first round. However, that did not say much. Peru had nothing to play for and against an Argentinian side hungry for 4 or more goals. The crowd was damn loud too.
     
  4. Chowderhead

    Chowderhead Member

    Aug 3, 1999
    Central Falls, RI
    Argie won that match fair and square. People were pissed that Brazil ended up getting knocked out. Throw in a military government, an ex-pat playing for the opposition and a bit of imagination and there you go.
     
  5. Visca...

    Visca... Member

    Sep 13, 2004
    ATL
    Nat'l Team:
    Peru
    A lot of people say this is true. Menotti called only his players and left Fillol out of the meeting. This was so that the game wouldn't look suspicious with Fillol not making any effort at all (I guess he's a bad actor). So doing it that way, Fillol would still make good saves and try his hardest. The game would look a lot normal. Argentina needed to win by more than 4 goals in order to go to the final. Peru had nothing to play for, but everyone knows that any team would like to be a party pooper in such a big event. At the time, both governments were under military rule. It was a deal between both Generals. It wasn't just a fix between football federations. The government was involved. I don't know if it was for money debt or what, but it was a deal between governments. Peru had one or two shots that hit the post. So on their part, they were doing a great job of acting. It wasn't just Quiroga's fault because he was Argentinian, everyone was in it! Peru had a great team in '78 and this game ended up being really suspicious. It could be true and then again it couldn't. We'll never find out.

    Oddly enough, Argentina's most acclaimed sports magazine El Grafico, named Peru's midfield as the best one in the Group stage:

    [​IMG]
     
  6. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    First of all, Quiroga was the type of goalkeeper who occasionally made the spectacular save but also gave up easy goals and made mistakes coming out for crosses. But he didn't have a particularly poor game against Argentina. Those who are conspiracy theorists should do well to look at the tapes and ponder the following:

    1) Did Quiroga have a chance in any of the first four goals? At least two were impossible to get. He did seem to give up on the play for the fourth one. But then both he and his defenders were seen vociferiously arguing an off-side to the ref. Hardly the actions you'd expect from players who are in on a fix. So, giving up on the play was more likely related to the supposed off-side than to any funny business.

    2) If anybody watches the Peru vs Brasil match, (which Peru lost 3-0) the two goals by Dirceu were ridiculous. Quiroga looked worse on those plays than on anything that happened in the Argentina-Peru match. If those goals had been scored by an Argentine, they'd probably be exhibit A for the conspiracy.

    It is true that Peru had a nice team, with a good midfield, and they played well in the first round. But they had a lot of internal problems and bickering, which perhaps led to them playing so poorly in the second round.

    I have heard (second hand) from a former player who played with some of these guys, that one big issue was that the Peruvian federation was paying players price money based on their club salaries, so somebody who was playing in Mexico, like Munante, was getting more than twice what the top players in the team were getting, and so everybody was getting pissed at each other.

    And don't forget that Peru got killed by Brazil too. If it wasn't for all the shots that hit the posts and near misses, we might be talking another 6-0 type rout in that match. Basically Argentina and Brazil tied their match, they both beat Poland by two goals, and they both killed Peru. The difference were those shots which hit wood in the Brazil match and hit the net for Argentina. That is why Argentina was in the final and Brazil played for third place. We had two great teams, and it came down to luck, as it often does in football. But some people just love a good conspiracy.

    As far as the forgiving of the debt, My understanding is that it had a lot to do with the Argentine dispute with Chile over the Beagle channel in the South Atlantic, and with Peru's strong diplomatic support for Argentina on that issue. Nothing about football.
     
  7. tpmazembe

    tpmazembe Member

    Jun 13, 2002
    The Midfield (S.Fla)
    I believe that ASF's perspective is the closest to the truth.

    The only thing "fishy" about the game is that the start-times were changed. Both final group games, Brasil-Poland and Arg-Peru, were initially scheduled for the same kick-off time when the tournament started. A change was made in the days before that game allowing Argentina to play after the Brasil game had concluded. Thus Menotti's squad knew exactly how many goals they needed to win for classification. Although unfair, this does not reach the level of bribery, nor of a fix.

    I remember seeing the game live on TV. Peru just collapsed under the pressure.
     
  8. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Yes, the schedulling change was unfair, and should not have happened. A gift from FIFA to the junta, I suppose. Even though both Brazil and Argentina knew that they had to outscore each other, it was obviously a big advantage to play last and to know the exact score that you need.
     
  9. Dominican Lou

    Dominican Lou Member+

    Nov 27, 2004
    1936 Catalonia
    It just seems incredible that a team with the best midfield and that finished first in a group that included Holland, Scotland and Iran would fall apart to the tune of 6-0 to a so-so team. I could understand 2-0, 3-0 even a 4-0 catastrophe, but 6-0 just seems, kinda... unlikely.

    And yeah, from what I heard everyone was in on it, not just the goalie. They still sometimes refer to him as Ramon "6-0" Quiroga
     
  10. ElGaucho

    ElGaucho New Member

    Aug 19, 2001
    La Plata
    Jamaica also got bribed when they lost 5-0 Argentina

    Also Serbia was bribed when they lost 6-0 to Argentina

    these scores are impossible... :rolleyes:
     
  11. Excape Goat

    Excape Goat Member+

    Mar 18, 1999
    Hong Kong
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    That is how I saw the first 4th goals. In fact, he had little chance with 5 of the 6 goals. The Peruvan defense did look weak in some of the goals. Kempas basically matched into the box and faced the keeper one-on-one. However, he also scored a similiar goal in the Final against Holland..... you know the winning goal. So I really don't know.
     
  12. dna77054

    dna77054 Member+

    Jun 28, 2003
    houston
    and did FIFA learn a thing about the scheduling, hell no, giving us the Germany, Austria, Algeria fiasco of 82
     
  13. nicephoras

    nicephoras A very stable genius

    Jul 22, 2001
    Eastern Seaboard
    While few would argue Argentina's '78 World Cup squad was one of the greatest ever, to label them "so-so" is downright stupid.
     
  14. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    Ronnie Hellström the best goalee ... one of the most forgotten but quality guys between the sticks.
     
  15. Colm

    Colm Member

    Aug 17, 2004
    UK
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Personaly that game was rigged by the Argentine government....well so they say it was.
     
  16. condor11

    condor11 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 2, 2002
    New Zealand
    dont forget that peru , with quiroga in goal also conceded 5 or 6 goals against poland in the 1982 world cup

    they had a tendency to self destruct, in fact they still do
     
  17. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    This copy of El Grafico brings me some great memories from my childhood. As kids we used to eat up that magazine, and we used it for bragging rights at school. They used to give a performance score to every single player for every league match and also for significant international matches. And their scores always seemed to be fair.

    It is remarkable that there are no Argentines in their first round 'all star' team, and only one Dutch. Some great players there, but only one eventual finalist. And no Brazilians, either. I guess it is an example of how significant the first round of a WC really is.

    That was a bittersweet time growing up in Argentina. Great for football, not not so great to have to deal with the specter of terrorism and with the rule of the fascist Junta. Perhaps that is why the game meant so much to us, it was an escapism from reality.
     
  18. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Yes, Hellstrom was amazing. Very unortodox style, too, the way he jumped and how he used his legs to make saves. Whatever happened to him? He belongs in the thread of forgotten greats.
     
  19. sidefootsitter

    sidefootsitter Member+

    Oct 14, 2004
    I put him in my "great GK" list that was discussed here a month or so ago.

    Of course, Ronnie was nothing compared to Vladimir Astapovskiy... hehe...
     
  20. condor11

    condor11 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 2, 2002
    New Zealand
    its to bad cueto and velazques dont have the same fame as cubillas

    they where both great players, cueto especially was an artist with the ball. and velazques was a very good defensive mid
     
  21. Dominican Lou

    Dominican Lou Member+

    Nov 27, 2004
    1936 Catalonia
    Yes, since Jamaica also had three of their players ranked as some of the best in the World Cup

    And Serbia came first in their group ahead of Holland, Scotland and Iran

    :rolleyes:
     
  22. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Are you seriously arguing that it is impossible for a good team to beat another good team by a large margin unless the match is fixed? There are lots of examples which prove you wrong. Some even at the WC level.

    How do you explain the score of the Denmark-Uruguay match in 86? Uruguay had a lot of talent, led by Franchescoli. Before the tournament, some experts considered them to be the most talented of the South American squads. Do you remember what happened? And how do you explain the score of the Spain-Denmark match, later in that same world cup? Certainly Denmark had proved to be a very good team. So, how do you explain the final score?

    Sometimes a team, even a talented team, gets demoralized during a match, and loses by a large score. It is part of football.

    Personally, I don't think you watched Argentina-Peru 78, or Brazil-Peru 78. they were very similar matches, and say a lot about the state of mind of the Peruvian team at that stage in the tournament. If you watched the matches, and you have them in your memory, you wouldn't be seriously arguing the way you are.
     
  23. burn357

    burn357 New Member

    Oct 13, 2003
    the mothership
    just seems a little convenient that you won 6-0 thats all. in other words we wouldnt put it past you.
     
  24. M

    M Member+

    Feb 18, 2000
    Via Ventisette
    I'm not sure whether or not is was rigged, but there's little doubt that Argentina received big dollops of help from FIFA and the refs throughout that World Cup - just as England did to a lesser extent in '66. Argentina's gamesmanship before the final was particularly disgraceful.
     
  25. aguilas

    aguilas New Member

    Dec 17, 2004
    San Francisco
    Club:
    Club América
    This game was the biggest sell out in history. Didn't some Peru players admit it?
     

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