Are we playing our best team?

Discussion in 'Houston Dynamo' started by juvechelsea, Aug 19, 2015.

  1. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    Last three games

    http://www.houstondynamo.com/news/2015/08/match-recap-houston-dynamo-0-new-england-revolution-2

    Tyler Deric; Sheanon Williams, David Horst, AJ Cochran, DaMarcus Beasley (Kofi Sarkodie 46); Luis Garrido, Nathan Sturgis (Boniek García 76); Alex, Giles Barnes, Brad Davis ©; Will Bruin (Erick Torres 56)
    Substitutes Not Used: Joe Willis, Rasheed Olabiyi, Mauro Manotas, Leonel Miranda
    We start Bruin, Lima, Sturgis, and Garrido; we only sub Boniek (14 min) and Torres (34 min); we don't use Olabiyi. [LOSS]

    http://www.houstondynamo.com/news/2015/08/match-recap-houston-dynamo-2-san-jose-earthquakes-1

    Joe Willis; Sheanon Williams, David Horst, Raúl Rodríguez, DaMarcus Beasley; Luis Garrido, Leonel Miranda (Boniek García 56), Alex Lima (Rasheed Olabiyi 85), Brad Davis ©, Giles Barnes; Will Bruin (Erick Torres 78)
    Substitutes Not Used: Michael Lisch, Mauro Manotas, Kofi Sarkodie, Alexander López
    We start Garrido, Miranda, Lima, and Bruin; we only sub Boniek (34 min) and Torres (12 min). [LATE WIN]

    http://www.houstondynamo.com/news/2015/08/match-recap-houston-dynamo-1-sporting-kansas-city-1

    Tyler Deric; Sheanon Williams, David Horst, Raúl Rodríguez, DaMarcus Beasley; Alex Lima (Leonel Miranda 68), Ricardo Clark (Luis Garrido 80), Brad Davis ©, Nathan Sturgis (ejected 86), Giles Barnes; Will Bruin (Erick Torres 62)
    Substitutes Not Used: Joe Willis, Kofi Sarkodie, Rasheed Olabiyi, Mauro Manotas
    We start Lima, Sturgis, and Bruin; we sub in Miranda; we only sub in Torres 28 min; we sit Olabiyi. [TIE]

    So that is the first part of the argument, that it simply appears we are not putting the best collection of players on the field.

    Second part of the argument, if you have the forward harvest of Torres, Bruin, and Barnes. And the midfield pile we have. Why is there just one forward spot in the formation, essentially squeezing out your own quality? And why are you starting Sturgis, Miranda, and Garrido when people like Boniek end up sitting, and the dangerous Olabiyi fights to see the field?

    The overall argument is very simple. Is our roster really meant to be a 451 team? Is the formation squeezing out better players in a way similar to Kinnear's myopic forcing of everything into a 442. You sign Torres and then stick to a formation that leaves him sidelined. How silly is that. You have Boniek around but play Sturgis or Miranda. You don't even have to be someone like me who thinks this screams 433 to see the formation as suboptimal in terms of taking advantage of available personnel, and giving us a better chance to get results. This is me showing my work.
     
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  2. shoeless

    shoeless Member

    Jun 28, 2011
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    I think Boniek may be being eased back in since his injury while he was away for Gold Cup.
     
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  3. Heft

    Heft BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 20, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Are you playing fantasy manager?
     
  4. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    I am providing "the work" so that we can talk actual turkey rather than dealing with superficial responses like Footyfool's: "This is EXACTLY what Westside kills you for doing ... fantasizing!! Who is the "talent" that OC is leaving on the bench?!?!? The only player I can see you making this argument about is Cubo. And he is not sitting in favor of Lovejoy or Miranda or Sturgis?? So who exactly are you referring to?!?!" So I spelled out for three games precisely who played (including questionably), merely subbed, or sat. I could go back further to games when Lovejoy and Miranda played earlier and someone better sat. It's a running theme where at least a couple picks per lineup induce headscratching as suboptimal or overly defensive. I could understand player rotation into the XI for freshness but that doesn't explain Torres subbing or Boniek subbing or the fact that some frustrating people like Bruin run out every week. There are people who play all the time even if the same team is not run out at Dom levels........and if you had to pick would it really be Bruin?

    I would like to broach the subject of whether the team is being run right, without it being laden directly with my wishes we'd play more attacking a formation. The argument covers but does not require adoption of my sensibility on the current roster and how it is deployed.
     
  5. Westside Cosmo

    Westside Cosmo Member+

    Oct 4, 2007
    H-Town
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    If anyone other than JuveChelsea posts anything here regarding the lineup, you maybe suffering from Stockholm Syndrome
     
  6. El Naranja

    El Naranja Member+

    Sep 5, 2006
    Alief
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    People a hell of a lot smarter than me have been racking their brains for months about how to get BBC on the field at once.Same conclusions drawn though: can't be done with current defensive unit.

    (Check out keepernotes.com to listen to @*rey* talk about this a bit or those dudes at genorange.net who talk almost nothing but)

    With injuries still a major issue at present I'm not sure you can get a much better lineup than what Coyle is using.

    Now 2016 is a different story as there is likely to be lots more changes.
     
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  7. Heft

    Heft BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 20, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    I think the 4-3-3 works.

    With current form and fitness

    Lima------Cubo--------OBG
    ------Davis------Barnes
    ------------Sturgis
    DMB--Raul--Horst--Williams
    --------------Deric
     
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  8. *rey*

    *rey* Member+

    Feb 22, 2006
    Houston
    if we're serious about still making the playoffs:

    ---------Cubo---Barnes-------
    -------------Davis--------------
    ----Beasley--------------OBG---
    ---------------Rico------------------
    Sturgis----Horst---Raul---Williams
    --------------Deric----------------

    i agree with Juve that we seriously need some offense even if its at the expense of some defense. that's why Cubo needs to play 90 instead of Bruin, the horses are needed out on the wings (Beasley & OBG) and Barnes' running needs to be minimized. IMHO, Brad Davis & Giles Barnes are physically done for the year as i've noticed there effectiveness has dipped as the summer has gotten longer. i think for Davis its just career mileage and Barnes its Copa America and Gold Cup mileage. unfortunately there's no one else to play in the center but Brad.

    if we would just be serious and admit its a rebuilding year:

    ---Manotas------Cubo---Barnes------
    Olabiyi---------Rico-------Miranda----
    Sturgis----Horst---AJ---Williams
    --------------Deric----------------

    i again agree with Juve that you enough horses to play the 4-3-3, but more importantly we need to assess if any of these cheaper players can play bigger roles in 2016. because if you can find a way not to bring back any combination of the higher salaries of Beasley, Brad Davis, Garrido, OBG, Raul and even Giles Barnes (its not a misprint! and I'm not crazy!), it would help the amount of money you can have to shop with in December of this year.

    LOL! i agreed with Juve twice in one post.
     
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  9. Heft

    Heft BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 20, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    I think this is one of OC's dilemmas. His two skilled players are not in form, but you need their skill.
     
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  10. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    Re Barnes and Davis, if the tank is run down, why not just rest them a couple weeks? This is going to be marathon rather than sprint anyway, decided in October. If the excuse for playing Boniek 30 is injuries why not them also? Barnes in particular just looks burned out. So instead of playing them at a less effective position why not just sit them and see if the legs come back? Cause IMO DM is not a restful hiding spot. You wanna rest him, give him 30 or even zip a couple weeks. We have some easy games, it might be dicey doing enough to win resting people, but Beasley could easily handle Davis' spot and Cubo or an attacker into Barnes' spot.

    One reason I am concerned Coyle is Going Slow on Cubo -- who should be well rested -- is that he is not a stereotypical central striker for a 433 or 451. I can see where Coyle is like you want me to play Chicharito in the middle? So as long as Bruin nets some he stays put. So instead of stacking Cubo at that spot, why not play him in a wide role? He seems fairly fit when used, mobile, sharp.

    Boniek had an assist on the SJ winner, whatever concerns or heading downhill there is, he remains productive.

    The season end answer to DM is obviously Clark but to me I'd like to see Alex Lima played there because the dude is a "gamer." He doesn't cost us with silly fouls (Garrido) and he makes more stuff happen compared to Sturgis. We need to wean off the lunchpail mentality and get people who produce, who make a difference. That's one reason I wish Olabiyi got used more, is he gets involved and is active and makes things happen.

    I agree with trying the youth but since they have been getting a fair amount of playing time in games that count, true "garbage time" should wait for if we don't make the cut. I don't think the loan players should be retained and I think we should encourage some people to remove the pressure and retire. The defense save Williams is a complete tear down and I'm not sold Deric is a really good #1 (don't even get me started on Willis).
     
  11. Heft

    Heft BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 20, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    Alex Lima is a better tackler than Sturgis, and commits less fouls. He also is intercepting at a better rate, and does not let players dribble past him. His passing percentages are the same as Sturgis. I think he could play in the center of the pitch in the deep role if needed.
     
    Hydro repped this.
  12. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #12 juvechelsea, Aug 19, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2015
    You have Beasley, Torres, Boniek, Lima, Olabiyi, Williams et al, I think we could outflank people running speedily down the wings. I also think if you throw more people forward then individual attackers have less physical demands to create by themselves, and they can play for more homerun balls. If you play 2 DMs and only 4 go forward, and Davis is the only person in his area, yeah, he has to create separation and run around. But if Davis was a LF in a 433 then all he has to do is cross. If we nominated him Pirlo in the offense, all he has to do is feed people. You can use players in ways to reduce their running or defensive burdens. Or you can play Barnes at DM where he has to run to do the job.

    I think if you compare recent results with early results you see a difference between how this team is bombing people forward wide with speed to square balls in, as opposed to relying on more technical people crossing from the same spaces a la Lopez, Miranda. To me this is a much better get out and run team and less effective trying to be some GB whack it in outfit. That to me is MLS 2.0 and time has moved on, and we don't have Ching to knock them in anymore.
     
  13. Heft

    Heft BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 20, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    I would think that a rotation is needed for those two players.
     
  14. Heft

    Heft BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 20, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    That is a good way to try to minimize the weakness of Davis, and enhance his strengths.

    My issues with this are:
    I think your three CMs in the triangle need to be able to combine well, and have immense discipline, or the 4-3-3 does not work. Davis is one of the more experienced, disciplined players, with great vision, passing, and combining, and is needed to be a CM in the triangle.

    Also, my preference for a LW is to be athletic enough to destroy the other team's ability to play out of their back right space, and run wide to defend, and then burst into the space vacated by the opposing fullback. It's a lot of ground to cover for Brad Davis.
     
  15. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    Part of my response would be, if it feels like too many square pegs in round holes with the lineup card, and then you feel compelled to run out some mediocre specialist like Miranda or Garrido or Bruin, perhaps I should step away from the concrete formation, instead figure out what set of players I'd really like to see out there, and then shape the formation around what gets them out there. I feel like part of the problem right now -- most evident at F but also evident in some of the M choices -- is the formation is dictating personnel rather than vice versa. There might be some justification for this if the coach had the team humming, and you can argue the system is above the players. We let some of this happen with the Dom Era, although with diminishing returns. But when you're like, there's only room for 10-30 Cubo minutes, or no place for Boniek but room for Sturgis, that sort of thing, I think you've gone too far in the direction of letting the system dictate, since the system gets mediocre and arguably suboptimal results misusing the talent.

    Now, if no amount of "let's see what formation we can use to get Davis, Boniek, and Torres on the field together" seems to work, fine, settle for a tactically sensible formation that gets most of the good people out there with maybe 1 role player. But so many of the bigger names are sitting that I don't think we're at that point yet.

    And my other thing is we now have some people like Lima and Olabiyi and Lopez etc. who can come off the bench and make some havoc. There is no need to sandbag a sub just to have some difference maker available.
     
  16. Heft

    Heft BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 20, 2011
    Houston
    Club:
    Houston Dynamo
    I have to think that the formation does not matter as much as the players. Formations are merely a suggestion.
     
  17. juvechelsea

    juvechelsea Member+

    Feb 15, 2006
    #17 juvechelsea, Aug 19, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2015
    Oh, I agree, but what I am saying is that (for example) when you sit Torres because there is 1 forward allocated to the chosen formation, and for whatever reason you want to start Bruin in that single slot, which results in benching the new acquisition, you're in fact treating the formation as the end in itself, mattering more than specific talent. The more goofy of a player we start to make out that formation, the more it feels strained. Miranda? Sturgis?

    Also, while Bruin's revival suggests his critics were too harsh, he is relatively wasteful and not as productive as Torres was last season, so a certain lack of conviction seems evident in the selection. We signed Torres because Bruin was deemed sufficiently frustrating. While on a roll for a period, he has fallen back to earth and there are strikers in the league with 16, 17 goals already. The idea with Torres was supposed to be, we deserved more like that. If you make the signing, commit to it. Worst thing is, if it's a dud, we won't even know til a later point because we're not really trying. He doesn't look unfit when played, and if the issue is not so much fear of a hammy pull from being out of shape, and more, he could use more fitness in a game to be maximally effective, well, best antidote to that particular thing is play him 45-60 in games for game fitness. I mean, how long do our starters get limited to 30 minutes in preseason? Not very long. Sorry but beyond basic fitness work always struck me that the best thing to get match fit was start playing games. There is no practice equivalent to intensity, to I want to get to that ball and score it because this game counts, and I have to run as fast as I can to do it.

    Worst possible thing that could happen now is to get religion on Bruin, right when Torres shows up. You already know Torres' best year is better than Bruin's. You already know he had several goals more last season in MLS. We already waited months on the loan and then immigration.

    I don't know if he's a Correa but I applaud the way the Astros handled that, as soon as he was ready, hey, we think he's the SS of the future and spent a first pick plus the money involved on him, who cares if we have a competent big leaguer there, this is the future. The ROTY he will soon win will be as much a reward for that aggressive decision as an individual honor for his own talent. They could have left him on the farm another year, could have done the safe thing and brought him up in September with the 40 man.

    Bruin is competent but Torres is supposed to render him obsolete. We're not in the playoffs. Let Torres have his chance to render him obsolete. If they are both good enough, change the formation. But this is an expensive player and that kind of signing demands playing him some just to show conviction about what we did and how long we waited.
     

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