Andrew Carleton

Discussion in 'Youth National Teams' started by ielag, Jul 8, 2018.

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  1. TarHeels17

    TarHeels17 Member+

    Jan 10, 2017
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    My main issue with the crux of your argument is that you make it sound like it would have been impossible for any player to break into Atlanta when Carleton joined (if your argument is not that, then you must believe that the fault is also due to some others, therefore meaning you would have to put some blame on Carleton humself). From there, you use the cases of Goslin and Kunga to make your argument because they're the only real examples of American homegrowns at Atlanta.

    Is it not more believable that Goslin has been on and off in injuries and hasn't been good enough to break through to the first team? And that Lagos Kunga, who no one on these boards had ever said was a good prospect before using him as a guy who was let down for support in an argument, is just doing a Coy Craft and isn't that good either? I think that's where we diverge in thinking. I think taking the opposite side to mean that Atlanta is impossible to develop at is a large jump.
     
  2. kingshark

    kingshark Member+

    Mar 3, 2006
    #2002 kingshark, Jul 25, 2019
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019
    Considering Atlanta United is a very young team and has no tracking record, I have to say we cannot prove they are helping or ruinning young prospects yet. There are not enough sample size to conclude. The same thing went to LAFC academy as they don't have any tracking record at all but we cannot say they are ruinning talents.

     
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  3. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Of course. But that gets to the heart of the matter that Atlanta has zero track record of success. They only have failures so far.

    What I really have issue with is Atlanta fixing their methods for Bello and basically cutting bait with Goslin, Carelton, Kunga. They are still there, can still play with a horrible USL team, but are very much things that have been disposed of.

    Why didn't they immediately apply the new methods to there other players? Why didn't they at least do a minimum of homework before starting a youth setup?

    I do give Atlanta credit for publicly stating they made errors. Takes some of the black mark off all these kids.
     
  4. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Would be true except for the fact Atlanta has admitted as much. Which is a good thing and a credit to them. The Mets have ruined pitching prospects for a decade, but never admit to having done anything wrong. Same with the Orioles, who have changed their entire development structure and process in the last 6 months because of years of failures, but never publicly admitted they erred.

    If AC does become something, he will have overcome an incredibly unnecessary barrier.
     
  5. Kombucha

    Kombucha Member+

    Jul 1, 2016
    Club:
    --other--
    Agree.

    Personally, I think that beyond a certain age the vast majority of a players development simple comes down to a players god-given talent level, physical traits, intelligence combined with the their work ethic.

    The club can provide the final polishing and give players reps that help them reach their potential quicker and put them in situations that maximize their skill sets while surrounding them with resources to help them reach that potential, but they can't create greatness out of very good or very good out of mediocre.

    I sort of see it as clubs doing the last 20% and even the worst professional club probably isn't a 0% and few will get the full 20%, so the variance is closer to 8-12% between the worst clubs and the best clubs in-terms of development in the later years

    The club seems the least responsible for success and failure and ultimately success or failure rests with the player and attributes that they can't control like athleticism.
     
  6. Kombucha

    Kombucha Member+

    Jul 1, 2016
    Club:
    --other--
    Negative.
     
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  7. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Not the thread for it especially considering Carleton's an Atlanta player and the rock attendance. Will just say all teams report ticket sales and no shows combined with those wandering around the concourse because of slow service buying drinks and eats does make it look worse than even 14k.
     
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  8. gogorath

    gogorath Member+

    None
    United States
    May 12, 2019
    You keep saying that, but per the article, the "error" that Atlanta is admitting to is letting their prospects get too big of egos and get complacent.

    They expressly reject that their was an error of playing time, and it's not really clear that they admit anything development related.

    Except that they didn't knock those pesky, entitled Amerian prospects off their pedestals and get them working harder.

    The entire piece isn't Atlanta admitting to anything, it's half Bello is awesom and half Carleton is an entitled American who thinks he's hot shit and doesn't want to work.

    I'm not saying that I agree with either of those is right, but you keep saying that Atlanta admitted errors. But the error they admitted is totally a backhanded way of putting the blame on Carleton and the players.

    "Oh, I couldn't fix their character defects caused by the soccer media!"
     
  9. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    I may have misunderstood him but I took it differently. I took it to mean that they had deficiencies....some of which (character, professionalism etc) are under the control of the player. The others, I inferred, were under the control and the responsibility of the team.
     
  10. dougtee

    dougtee Member+

    Feb 7, 2007
    fwiw i read that athletic thing as saying one of their mistakes was letting a kid like carleton have his ego stroked by the hype and money
     
  11. Golazo69

    Golazo69 Member+

    Aug 2, 2017
    I hope one day I can get the blind support Carleton gets on here if I ever run for Congress or something lol
     
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  12. Peretz48

    Peretz48 Member+

    Nov 9, 2003
    Los Angeles
    We're now at 81 pages and over 2000 posts. At this point I wonder if we can set an over/under line at say, 2500 posts. I'd bet on the over.
     
  13. xbhaskarx

    xbhaskarx Member+

    San Jose Earthquakes
    United States
    Feb 13, 2010
    NorCal
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Could Carleton shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and not lose his supporters?
     
  14. don Lamb

    don Lamb Member+

    mine
    United States
    Aug 31, 2017
    Based on this thread, he has more detractors than supporters.
     
  15. Dirt McGirt

    Dirt McGirt Member+

    Jun 20, 2005
    Phoenix, AZ
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Based on this thread I think most people are just anti fanboy bullshit.
     
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  16. LuckofLichaj

    LuckofLichaj Member+

    Mar 9, 2012
    Well, unless he improves his fitness and improves his strength on the ball (a la Pomykal) then I am a detractor as a USMNT fan. No matter what I hope he becomes a successful pro, but he isn’t good enough right now.
     
  17. don Lamb

    don Lamb Member+

    mine
    United States
    Aug 31, 2017
    clearly
     
  18. STR1

    STR1 Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    May 29, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Why can't Carleton get out of ATL? Can they just terminate his contract so he is free to go anywhere or at least move him to a team within MLS that is willing to take him in?
     
  19. STR1

    STR1 Member+

    Atlanta United
    United States
    May 29, 2010
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Is he injured? He isn't even in the 18 man squad with the 2s.
     
  20. comoesa

    comoesa Member+

    Aug 13, 2010
    Christen Press's armpit
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, I have always wondered if Carleton simply was good enough. The whole small and frail issue. I just think people are over reacting (partying before a game, not practicing hard?) to slight mishaps of a very young man. If Carleton was currently good enough he'd be playing despite those issues. That's just how sports go.
     
  21. Mahtzo1

    Mahtzo1 Member+

    Jan 15, 2007
    So Cal
    You're right that is the heart of the matter but you see it differently than me. When it comes to success I would consider it developing a player to or near his potential. Failure I would see as developing someone to a level significantly below their potential.

    The problem I have is that determining a success or failure is extremely subjective...especially when there is only a small sample space (and even more so when those being judged are not done developing).

    It is generally agreed that the rate of advancement from prospect to successful pro is relatively low (exactly how low is up for debate of course). Given that assumption, if we are speaking of a handful of prospects (only a few...including Carleton) were considered high level prospects and the short timeframe we are speaking of it is difficult to judge.

    Who are the primary prospects we are talking about?
    Bello?
    Carleton?
    Vazqez?
    Robinson?
    Goslin?
    Kunga?

    Perhaps there are others that you have in mind and I can't really comment too much on their actual potential because I don't know all of the players but I do know that 2 players listed above have had significant injury issues (Bello who I know enough to really like, and Goslin who I only know by hearsay) I know Vazquez and Robinson are playing (Robinson quite well and Vazquez playing sporadically). The point being that I don't really believe you can grade any of the players as a success or failure at this point. As @kingshark says, based purely upon track record, it is far too early to make an accurate assessment of AFC's development system and further more, given the fact that AFC is making adjustments as we speak, it may be quite some time before the track record can give a good picture. (track record requires consistency over time to be useful)

    I will say this about Carleton. Whatever may or may not be going on in his head, he is obviously an extremely talented player but even then, there is debate over his athletic qualities that he may or may not be able to overcome if he is to reach the highest levels...the point is that even with the right mental attitude, he still has a long way to go before he becomes a star in MLS let alone the highest levels. I will also say that he is still young and it is far too early to write him off.
     
  22. don Lamb

    don Lamb Member+

    mine
    United States
    Aug 31, 2017
    He went 90 for ATL2.
     
  23. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think this goes for a lot of the very attacking young players - Mendez, Ledezma etc than just Carleton. No one builds teams around Carlos Valderama types anymore and even if someone did it would be around a proven veteran. All of these guys need to work on fitness and defense if they want to be central attacking mid players in good leagues.
     
  24. thedukeofsoccer

    thedukeofsoccer Member+

    Jul 11, 2004
    Wussconsin
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree with the general sentiment, but Ledezma shouldn't be included in that category. He is fleeter of foot and can nip in to make a tackle. Would it be nice if he got stronger? Sure, but a lot of thin guys make it work well enough in football so long as they have a hard mindset, are quick enough, and have work-rate. That's true of Pulisic too. He gets bodied a lot but says thank you sir may I have another. His issues are more with anticipation. Actually that's a strength of Ledezma seemingly. Sees the open man on time.

    You need to not be a specialist anymore, but the likes of Ledezma, Aaronson, and Roberts seem more than good enough at the other aspects of the game outside creativity. So for them it's about applying all their abilities rather consistently. Ledezma seems furthest along in this regard. It may be more a matter of just moving up the ladder. W/ Aaronson he needs to be more consistently creative, Roberts consistent period. But all 3 seem to have the tools to realistically succeed on int'l and club levels.
     
  25. jaykoz3

    jaykoz3 Member+

    Dec 25, 2010
    Conshohocken, PA
    Club:
    Philadelphia Union
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sound the Carleton Claxon!!! Kids entering the USOC Semifinal in the second half
     

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