Andrew Carleton

I'll split the difference with you. I attend plenty of FCD matches and I think the real number may be between the 14k tickets they sell/give away and the actual attendance which I estimate to be around 6k.

 

Again, this is gobblygook. We have no idea if anyone tried to trade or buy Carleton.

The idea that Carleton is a bad seed that Atlanta was saddled with is nonsense. I think a kid with his potential, with the dreams he had, would be a little frustrated that everything he was promised wasn't even close to delivered. Yes, Atlanta pays him, but reimbursed by the league. But they had nowhere for him to play, no plan to get him training or playing time, no support for a 16 yo just entering a professional environment away from home.

When Gio signed with Dortmund, or Tyler with NYRB, do you think they told those kids a plan of action and then followed through?

Just incredible that nobody here wants to connect the dots that some of the trouble AC is having is related to being completely mismanaged. Zero empathy and no ability to see anything from AC's point of view.

Is Goslin a bad seed too? One of the best players at the 2017 U17WC, where is he? Is Kunga a bad seed?

 

Ok, I understand your question better now. The evidence is right there in plan sight, isn't it? If they were good enough to be on the field, they would be - especially given the fact their wages are so much less than some of the players they brought in. On one hand, you could be right...they just may be unlucky to each have better players ahead of them in the pecking order. We will be able to see how this plays out and if they can break into another team, since it looks unlikely for them to break into Atlanta's squad.

I have a hard time putting 100% of development on the club. The football world is littered with players who were great at 16-18 that never make their mark as a professional. I think the player holds a lot more responsibility in their development than the club does.

 

I can't really follow your point unless you think it routine that 16 year olds are good enough, on signing, to step into a first team. Even Pulisic spent months playing U19, McKennie also spent a year at U19. The idea that Carelton was given a chance at 16, there were better players, so Atlanta gets to move on to the next player is incredible. It goes against everything in sports in regards to youth development. But ok, I guess the fact that Atlanta botched his development is 100% on the kids that they didn't develop properly or even knew how to.

Of course, not every 16 yo makes it. And maybe AC wasn't going to make it. And maybe it isn't "100% on Atlanta"; but nobody said it was. You and others have said it is 100% on Carelton though.

 

Well, Atlanta has played a role in the development of younger players who have gotten notable minutes with the first team, so not sure how that squares with the assertion it is Atlanta's fault.

George Bello is 17 and played reserves and with the full team.
Vazquez largely developed in Mexico, but he did use reserve matches to help him earn a larger role in the Atlanta United squad
Miles Robinson is 22 and also used USL loans to develop.

Maybe they mismanaged him, but that is an assumption...It seems if we start playing that game, we say Schalke succeeded with WM, but not so much on Zyen Jones, Tataigue, and Haji... Do we then criticize Schalke's ability to develop players? There are just a number of variables with young players. It can be relationship with the manager, it can be inability to elevate the game against grown men, it can be difficulty in a living environment (abroad or domestic). We tend to preordain who we think will be great based on performance when kids are 16-17 years old. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

 

I’m not the one that lambasted the club and said they screwed up with these players development. As far as I’m concerned, they all still have a chance. All I said was, there is something missing from their game at the moment that prevents them from getting into the 18, much less the 11.

You yourself just said that Pulisic and McKennie spent time with their youth teams, so being an 16-18 year old in a youth set up obviously isn’t a death sentence. You are also the one all over Atlanta and the poor job they have done. You’re all over the place mate.

I stick to my statement - just because a kid was great at 16-18 and doesn’t make it as a pro, doesn’t automatically put the blame on the club. There are hundreds of players around the world that fall into that category.

 

Maybe they are. Being best players at U17 WC guarantee nothing. There are enough samples to tell you how it works, either in US or at global stage. Professional youth development is cruel, which filtered out 90% kids.

 

Not sure why anyone thinks you have to be a “bad seed” to not make it. Sometimes players can be too good for the U19 level but not good enough for the first team level.

It’s more often than not about talent, not always attitude.

 

there mistakes were that carleton should be focused...oh wait that has to come from the player the club can't force him to care.

its funny you say 'et al'...like every club has dozens of prospects that pan out and somehow Atlanta has none. Atlanta wiffed on a few kids like carleton there is nothing they could do to him that would keep him skill from being obvious in a terrible league like the usl where he plays against terrible competition. He isn't the first kid to peak at 16 and he won't be the last. Carleton is living the good life though no matter what he does its everyone elses fault.

 

I am sure that Atlanta hasn’t done everything perfect with their development, but much easier to believe that Carleton needs to grow up, Goslin isn’t ready to play in MLS at 19 and has been injured and Kunga just isn’t good than Atlanta torpedoed their careers they were so bad at developing prospects.

 

ATL vs their HG's. Such a lack of empathy.

 

I want to go back to this. What does this even mean? For me, this is half the problem with youth soccer and speaks more to our sporting culture in general.

What was promised? What wasn’t delivered? I’ve been a part of many contract discussions and I’ve NEVER heard any on field promises made in a professional environment. The only promise a club has to keep is making direct deposits in the correct amount.

Potential, dreams and promises doesn’t get anyone shit. Performance, work ethic and professionalism get players on the field.

To be fair to Carleton, he has every right to be frustrated. However, that frustration needs to be mostly toward himself. I’d be frustrated too if I was as highly rated as him and still haven’t proved myself on the field. I’d be frustrated watching kids I knew I was better than 2/3 years ago getting starts and playing a ton of minutes in the league. I’d be frustrated by not getting YNT cal ups and watching my old teammates compete in youth World Cups.

The whole thing has to be frustrating. No one will argue that.

 

It is not an assumption. Literally, in the Athletic article, the Atlanta Academy Director said they made mistakes. They learned from the mistakes with Goslin and Carelton and others and changed things for Bello.

Schalke has a long track record with development. Atlanta has zero. Schalke is not giving interviews saying they screwed up but will be better going forward.

I guess it is all Atlanta fans here defending the organization. You don't have to, they admit they mismanaged AC.

 

This is wrong. You are comparing the kids at established pro development places with kids at Atlanta. Atlanta has zero track record. Atlanta has said they had no idea what they were doing. Atlanta failed Carelton, Goslin, Kunga, and others. Why is this so hard for everyone?

Carelton might have failed at Dortmund or FCD. We will never know, which was my original point. He went to Atlanta. A gigantic error on his part and everyone involved with him. A gigantic error because Atlanta had no idea how to develop him and are not even trying now.

So, no, you don't get to play the numbers game because Atlanta has no track record.

 

Why is it easier to believe? When Atlanta is giving interviews about how they mismanaged their first home growns?

I'm getting incredibly baffled by the mental gymnastics everyone here tries to go through to dump on the kid and exonerate the professional organization. Why? Why do you feel the need to crap on the kid?

Personally, I think it is much easier to believe that Atlanta had a big role in his non-development because they admit to it in the press!

 

How do we think a 18 yr old reacts to that kind of frustration? Guys like Sancho, were able to move. There is no way out once you sign with MLS until the whole 5 years is up.

Watzke, the CEO of Dortmund, was quoted today about how they went to Reyna's house when he was 14. How they gave an entire plan for how they would develop Gio. Pulisic tells a similar story. The guys in the loan armies, like Miazga, tell how Chelsea laid out a professional development plan for him. Tyler Adams says Red Bull did likewise.

Everyone I read about seems to have the same experience that is completely different than yours. Hmmmm. Do you really think Red Bull just cut checks for Adams and did nothing else?

I'm sure AC and the others in his cohort, were given a plan. But we know, because Atlanta admits it now, that they couldn't come through with what they promised. AC is now stuck there, wasting prime development years as they scramble to get something in place for the next crop of prospects. Being MLS, he can't get out of there easily, if at all.

 

I believe that:

a) Atlanta is still figuring out how to build a good developmental pipeline and hasn't done a good job with some of their young players

and

b) Carleton's lack of professionalism would have hindered his career in the context of literally any club


These things are not mutually exclusive.

 

All 18 year olds are different, but we know how this 18 year old reacted.

Funny you bring up Adams - seeing as he put his head down and put in performances with Red Bull II for 33 matches as a 16/17 year old. I’ll add, no one within the club ever uttered a negative word about Adams.

Miazga was a 21 year old that was shipped from league to league on loans. You think that is easy for a kid that age in foreign countries?

Quite frankly mate, you are free to place blame wherever you want to, but the bottom line is a professional makes his own path - and there are many different options.

Now you’re trying to use his contract situation as an excuse for him not “making it” yet. He and his advisors knew what they were signing. Deal with it. He has had no leverage because he hasn’t put in the level of performances that get you leverage at any stage outside his youth career.

He’s the player, it’s his career and it should be obvious that it’s a business. If any young player thinks he is going to get preferential treatment and his club isn’t always looking for a player better than him - they don’t understand what they’ve signed up for.

It ain’t the job of a club to forge a career for a player, that’s the players job.

 

This is tiring. I'm not assigning blame anywhere. You blamed Carelton and said he had flaws in his game and mentality. Atlanta admits, publicly, that they mismanaged him and others in his cohort and made radical changes to how they operate because of the drastic flaws in their methods. I've only pointed out that your assumption cannot entirely coexist with what Atlanta admits.

So, you blame Carelton. Atlanta says they have blame to claim. I just have said over and over that it is a shame Carelton went to Atlanta and we will never know what he would have been had he made any other choice.

Further, since Atlanta publicly admits they are not blameless, it can't be 100% AC's fault can it?

Nobody is talking preferential treatment. Just getting what every other top prospect in the world, who signed in 2017, got. And it certainly didn't work out for most of those kids, but I don't think AC (and Goslin) had much of a chance.

 

Did Carlton play for ATL2 tonight?

 

Some people don’t seem to be able to discuss a topic to search for the truth. A discussion to them is something that is won or lost. Once you choose this path, there is no place to go than to outlast other posters with posting energy - even if they don’t completely disagree with everything you are saying.

It is an incredibly ineffective form of communication, but it is all some people have.

Kudos to those of you with the patience to try and help these posters by modeling appropriate, constructive discussion as a contrast to their confrontation without integrated thinking.

I salute you.

 

Apologies if I didn’t read the article correctly. I don’t recall Annan staying they mismanaged anyone which led them to make radical changes. I remember him saying “they made some mistakes.” For me, those two things are miles apart.

Why? I don’t understand this thought process, and think the reality is completely opposite. We may never know what he could/would have been in Atlanta, but why does one bad stint have to ruin his entire career. He’s just turned 19 for fecks sake - most 19 year olds in world football aren’t even on first team contracts. Now, if he wants to pout and reminisce about his good old days, without facing the reality that he needs to completely reassert himself and prove himself all over again - then I would agree, we may never know what “could have been.” At his age, he has every opportunity to still have a good professional career. It’s not even close to being too late.

What are these things exactly? What does every other top prospect get that Carleton didn’t? He’s “working” at a state of the art facility, in his hometown, in his home country, with his family near and with people that speak his native language. I would argue that Carleton has had it easy compared to the paths that some other top prospects have taken.

What I would have liked to see from Carleton was an attitude of “screw these MFers,” I’m going to show them how stupid they really are - by going out and working harder than anyone else and being the best player on the field for Atlanta United II. If his talent doesn’t allow for that, we will know over the next few years. If his attitude doesn’t allow for that, we will point back to 2018.

 

Sorry, meant to put this in my post above.

I don’t necessarily blame Carleton. I clearly stated earlier in the thread, he must be lacking in one or more attributes of a professional that enables a manager to put him on the field.

If had to register a logical guess at the moment, I think his talent level will hold him back more than his supposed bad attitude. I’m not close to the situation, but it’s my opinion that he just isn’t that great of a player compared to his peers at this stage of his career. I truly hope I am wrong in this assessment. Again, at 19, that can change in short order.

 

Tony Annan of ATLUTD did indeed say mistakes had been made ... but when he detailed them, it's certainly not admitting a poor development program, or poor playing time (which he and Bocanegra defend) but rather a shot that seems primarily targeted at Carleton's character under the guise of "what could have ATLUTD done to mitigate this entitlement and lack of hunger":

So what Atlanta United is admitting to is not being able to correct what they see as a lack of work ethic, hunger and some entitlement in American prospects. That's one of two things they label as lacking in American kids: "The maturity of the (American) player and the understanding of the game are the two biggest factors that face us in the U.S."

That's the "mistake" Atlanta United is "admitting" in the article. I think it's pretty classless to continue to take swipes at the work ethic of Carleton and apparently some of the other prospects not named George Bello over and over in public, personally.

And it doesn't mean they are right or wrong. Although anyone who thinks Carleton is a hard worker at this point is ignoring a massive amount of evidence to the contrary.

But let's not pretend the article is Atlanta United that they made developmental mistakes in terms of what they taught, time they gave to prospects, or their teaching methods ... other than fighting the hype machine.

They may suck at development, but they really aren't admitting it. This article is just:

First Half - Bello is awesome and if he was healthy, he'd be killing it
Second Half - Andrew Carleton and everyone else is an entitled slacker, we'll pretend that's our fault but we know you won't hold us to it.