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Discussion in 'Youth National Teams' started by ielag, Jul 8, 2018.
I think Sargent can be an elite striker. I think that Carleton can be an elite playmaker.
Good question, but (at the right price) I'm sure there's an answer.
is there a reason you won't compare Carleton directly to our historical best? Every answer eludes the comparison.
I find it surprising that you think the USMNT has so many Big 4 UCL ceiling players coming through its ranks over time. I think that's wildly optimistic given how competitive the world is now.
I'm not sure what you are getting at with a comparison. What good does that do? Carleton is more creative than any player we've ever produced.
There are definitely many more players with a ceiling around UCL level than ever before. The depth of our current talent pool at U21 far surpasses anything that we have ever seen. Yeah it's optimistic, but it's also backed up by youth performances and my eyeballs. Of course not even close to all of these players will reach their full potential (that includes Carleton), but if we are talking about ceilings....
Because he thinks carleton is better then any of those guys. He looks at him as a junior type from Madrid or a better Foden. His answer to who will take over for messi is carleton.
These are all Golden Boot winners from U17 World Cups, and my guess is very few know their names because they really didn't reach elite professional status. To be fair, the likes of Donovan, Iheancho, Fabregas are also U17 Golden Boot winners - and they did ok for themselves.
I say this not for any type of "gotcha" moment, but to make people understand that top talent at the U17 level doesn't always equate to elite status at the professional level very often. I do not know the back stories on these players - some may have had injuries, some maybe didn't buckle down and continue to work, some maybe dominated the youth game due to physical traits - but in the end, they didn't make it professionally at the level that they were at U17.
I can't be arsed to go back and look, but if my memory serves me correct - you once asked me what I thought Carleton's ceiling was. I think my answer was "fringe MLS all-star", and this was many months ago. I'm not quite ready to abandon that projection, but if I had to change it right now - I would knock him down a rung, not move him up.
The ages from 16-20 are the most important for the development of a professional footballer. The talented kids in this age bracket need high caliber games, and as many as they can get. We always compete at the U17 level but by the time we get to the full team level, we drop off significantly. This is due to the mediocrity of MLS and the fact that our best 16-20 year olds haven't historically been given enough games. Carleton has essentially gone 2 years without many significant matches - it shouldn't be very difficult to understand why he has been passed up by so many in his age bracket.
At some point in time, a player has to go from being a "talent" to becoming an integral part of a professional team and put in performances worthy of keeping a starting role.
To be fair to Carleton, maybe he hasn't had anyone that has forced him to reevaluate and come up with a new plan. Off the back of his U17 performances (I agree he was good) he probably had a plan in place that looked like - sign first team contract, become a starter, become an all-star, move to Europe. If that was his plan, it needs to be abandoned and a new one created - this first plan as sailed and is out to sea.
My hope is he as someone is his corner saying - look, here is the new plan. Train like every day is your last day, start putting in notable USL performances, get into AU game day roster consistently, earn a starting job. Anything beyond that is just pie in the sky right now - he needs to be concentrating on tomorrow.
Before you put words into my mouth, you might want to read my answer above. I said that he has a similar or higher ceiling than our previous great youth players. If you want me to break it down: similar - Pulisic, Donovan, Adams; higher - McKennie, Weah, Beasley, Adu. What good does that do?
Anyway, what is your problem with rating a young American highly based on talent? You seem to take it as a personal attack.
Agree on the overall point regarding Carleton and where he is right now.
However, where is the evidence that "we have always competed at the U17 level." I don't think that is true outside of a couple of outliers. Now, it appears that we have consistently good youth programs up through U17 and U20. That has just begun, so it hasn't reached the senior team yet other than the surface being scratched, but it will start within the next couple of years and go from there.
No, not at all. I'm directly stating that he isn't playing, and Atlanta is doing him a disservice by refusing to send him to another MLS team or somewhere abroad so that he can get playing time.
Dortmund spent money on Mor and still let him leave. Atlanta spent zero dollars on him, and hasn't even tried loaning him out despite his issues.
Schalke loaned out Wright. PSG loaned out Weah. We're upset that Sargent has languished on the bench, now pretend that Sargent has been languishing for 3 years, and you wonder why people are upset?
Carleton was a very impressive YNT player who elected to stay home in Georgia and play for his new MLS team. The end result is 33 appearances in 3 5 years, 2/3rds of which are at the USL level, and he hasn't been suffering long-term injuries.
That's awful. And at this point, Atlanta is at fault for not being able to fix the off-field issues that are keeping him from playing time. If they can't fix his attitude, try giving him a change of scenery. If he does well, you bring him back or sell him.
It's not especially complicated.
Spot on with everything you said. However, you are making a pretty big assumption that other MLS clubs have inquired about getting Carleton on loan. I'm nowhere near convinced that is the case. It's also an assumption that Atlanta hasn't tried to loan him out.
shocker itt, mate
I find it difficult to believe that Carleton couldn't help at least half a dozen MLS teams. And there's an entire world of soccer teams out there that can afford to pay whatever the wages are for a guy making 87,000 a year.
Though, technically, you could be right, I don't buy it.
I don't know. Does his reputation (whether fair or unfair) precede him? Sometimes these things are hard to shake. We now have two different coaches that have essentially marginalized Carleton. And they aren't tweedledee and tweedledumb. Both have had things to say PUBLICLY about this attitude, etc. MLS teams do have options other than Andrew Carleton.
This suffices. You think that Carleton is more creative than Landon and Adu. I don't think that Carleton was viewed globally as a top 5-10 age group in the world prospect after the U17 showing and I'm guessing that you think he was.
Given how passionately and repeatedly you argue that he will be one of our best players within the next 10-16 months, your belief in him being the most creative place the US has ever produced explains why you downplay the complete lack of professional evidence of his ability to make it as an elite professional.
I think that one can think he has talent and also think he's nowhere near the prospects listed above.
I understand what you are saying. However, we all would have found it hard to believe that he has had so little game time. We all would have found it hard to believe that he would not have been chosen for the U20 World Cup. We all find it hard to believe that AU keeps signing players that play attacking positions. We all find it hard to believe that a second manager has chosen to use him in any different capacity than the previous manager.
Everything that has happened or surrounds this kid is hard to believe. Sooner or later, we have to start believing there are legitimate reasons for it.
Oooof...............now a front page MLS article:
Frank de Boer urges Andrew Carleton "to grow up," avoid "distractions"
What an inspiring leader de Boer is!
I put this in another thread, but the contrast between Oscar Pareja's comments about Paxton Pomykal are the exact opposite to those from ATL/de Boer. Neither youngster was playing. Both were presumably really frustrated by that. Both were told they needed to work on things.
Pareja was always positive with his comments to the media, though.
After Pax's few minute outing against Seattle:
“It made me smile,” FCD coach Óscar Pareja said. “It made me feel like the young guys are growing and that they need to be on the field more. Jacori [Hayes] as well has been playing very well. Paxton came up on the field with such a personality. Always very delighted to see how he has been maturing and he’s a product of our academy so hopefully he can have more minutes in the future and can keep growing as a player.”
So even though Pareja felt like Pax still needed to mature and learn before being integrated a little more...............the message was positive. Also positive publicly. [I have no idea what the message was behind the scenes.]
its the exact opposite with Carleton. Everything is spun negatively. I don't mind if there's negative feedback behind closed doors. That's fine and can be productive. But this public message of "He needs to grow up as a man" is insulting. Do that in private.
I think that after this thread blew up recently De Boer must have come under intense pressure to clarify that Carleton is talented but immature, not untalented and immature.
Pretty telling that on the front page of MLS website you have one article talking about how Pomykal is the key to the U20’s success and right below it you have An article on how Carleton needs to “grow up.”
Two kids, similar talent, different paths.
Maybe Carleton burned his bridges with his behavior before last year's championship. that was somewhat unprecedented and I could see how he was told to be on his best behavior then.
This debate kind of does my head in, so I’m going to sit in the periphery for a little while after this.
There are teams and leagues all over the world that are littered with talented players without the right mentality and professionalism. Of those players, many of them are so talented, their other issues are over looked. This is obviously not the case with Carleton. Talented, yes - talented enough where the manager(s) feel they desperately need him on the pitch, not even close.
The proof is in the pudding, as they say. Two professional managers and a YNT manager obviously feel the same way. No manager in their right mind would leave this “uber” talented kid out of the team if he were really that special.
Lol. I very well may be an idiot but I wouldn’t say that someone who doesn’t see Carleton as having the same level of talent that you see (best US has ever produced) is idiotic.
The limited amount I’ve seen him indicates that his issues are athletic - can he impact the game when faced with fast and savvy players given what appears to be athletic limitations? Many promising offensive prospects have fallen on this hill (Adu, Zelalem, Hyndman, etc). Maybe I’ll get to see him play more frequently one day.
There is entirely too much written about this kid but so be it, that is what this forum is for. ( so now I will add to it)
The most interesting part to me is the current coaches recommendation that Carleton get in the gym and change his diet with the insinuation he doesn't think Carleton is strong enough or fit enough to be a high level pro. This shifts to his athletic ability which has been seen by many as an achilles heel for him going forward.
I’ll take up that mantle. Guy can’t run and is physically weak. Do you know how far that sets back a player in the modern game?
Mario Gotze is probably the closest comparison to Carleton as far as superstars go. Yet Gotze is STILL bigger and stronger and is probably faster and most definitely has more engine.
Carleton has a phenomenal right foot and his attacking vision is somewhere between above average and world-class. His left foot is pretty good for an off-foot. That’s it. Guy can’t create space or beat a man with his dribble or with pace. Guy can’t press with pace and power. He’d be an awesome playmaker in futsal and beach soccer.
He could yet become useful at the MLS level because some pretty mediocre players can succeed in that league. But Champions League? That’s an absolute laugher.