All-time XIs by country

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Hidegkuti78, Oct 11, 2017.

  1. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    My attempt for Netherlands

    [GK] Edwin van der Sar
    [SB] Jaap Stam
    [CB] Rinus Israël
    [SB] Ruud Krol
    [SW] Frank Rijkaard
    [CM] Johan Neeskens
    [CM] Wim van Hanegem
    [AM] Ruud Gullit
    [WF] Arjen Robben
    [WF] Johan Cruyff
    [ST] Marco van Basten

    van der Sar

    Israël
    Stam ------------------------------------ Krol
    Rijkaard

    -- Neeskens ------- van Hanegem

    Gullit
    Robben --------------------------------- Cruyff -
    van Basten

    Rest of the squad:

    [GK] Jan van Beveren
    [GK] Hans van Breukelen
    [CB] Frank de Boer
    [SB] Wim Suurbier
    [SW] Ronald Koeman
    [CM] Arie Haan
    [CM] Edgar Davids
    [CM] Clarence Seedorf
    [WF] Faas Wilkes
    [WF] Rob Rensenbrink
    [FW] Dennis Bergkamp
    [ST] Ruud van Nistelrooy

    Others:

    [GK] Eddy Pieters Graafland
    [CB] Harry Dénis
    [CB] Cor van der Hart
    [CB] Danny Blind
    [WB] Giovanni van Bronckhorst
    [DM] Bok de Korver
    [DM] Wim Jansen
    [CM] Willy van de Kerkhof
    [CM] Phillip Cocu
    [PM] Puck van Heel
    [PM] Wesley Sneijder
    [AM] Kees Rijvers
    [AM] Willy van der Kuijlen
    [AM] Ronald de Boer
    [WF] Sjaak Swart
    [WF] René van de Kerkhof
    [WF] Johnny Rep
    [WF] Coen Moulijn
    [WF] Piet Keizer
    [WF] Marc Overmars
    [FW] Kick Smit
    [FW] Abe Lenstra
    [FW] Ruud Geels
    [ST] Beb Bakhuys
    [ST] Coen Dillen
    [ST] Patrick Kluivert
    [ST] Roy Makaay
    [ST] Robin van Persie
     
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  2. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    Very nice list with lots of old stars and props for putting Israel in. His fame hasnt crossed many borders but he was the real deal.
    If I could nitpick, Id change Eddy Pieters Graafland for Frans de Munck and Gio v Bronckhorst, who only ever knew how to kick a ball, for Adrie v Tiggelen or Daley Blind, if it has to be an LB. But Graafland is Feyenoord's alltime GK and Gio has a lot of caps so there are founded reasons for these picks.
     
  3. Hidegkuti78

    Hidegkuti78 Member

    Sep 2, 2015
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    Ok my take on NED


    vd Sar;
    Suurbier, Stam, Koeman, Krol;
    Rijkaard, Neeskens;
    Robben, Seedorf, Cruijff;
    v Basten


    Sorry v Hanegem and Sneijder
     
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  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Maybe I would go with a formation in which either Krol can be sweeper with Rijkaard CB, or Rijkaard can move up to play more as a DM while Krol slots into the centre of a back 3.

    So probably this as a first choice XI:
    Van der Sar; Krol; Suurbier, Rijkaard, Van Tiggelen; Gullit, Neeskens, Sneijder; Bergkamp, Cruyff; Van Basten

    Subs (if following the 5 selections as per 1970s and 1980s World Cups I suggested earlier):
    Van Bruekelen
    R.Koeman
    R.De Boer
    Wilkes
    Van Nistelrooy

    Rest of squad:
    Van Beveren
    Israel
    Cocu
    Van Hanegem
    Robben
    Rensenbrink
    Rep
     
  5. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Adding my squad numbers!
     
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  6. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    I think such a formation, with a defensive midfield, is ideal for a player like Seedorf. The guy was like Pandora's box. He could waste possession or create something beautiful. With Rijkaard behind the risks are minimal.
    Suurbier was like Gentile, anything but clean.
     
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  7. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    This formation has a powerful center but is narrow on the attack. Sneijder could perhaps drift to flank for MVB, who isnt ideal for throughballs and counterattacks. If you can keep the pressing up, Milan style, it may work beautifully though.
     
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  8. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, one curious thing I noticed was I'd picked a team without any left-footers!

    Cruyff can certainly be effective moving down the left, but indeed I was thinking more Christmas Tree than 4-3-3.

    To put a left footer in I suppose one option would be Frank de Boer or Hovenkamp in Van Tiggelen's place (in the team and the squad). I'd still feel in a team that might play a sweeper system or alternatively Rijkaard anchoring the midfield ahead of a back 3, Van Tiggelen fits both roles more ideally together though on the left of the defence.

    Van Hanegem could take Sneijder's place, but while that would give a token left footer it wouldn't be someone to attack dynamically down the left flank.

    Rensenbrink for Bergkamp could be an option, but actually I slightly prefer to start Cruyff left of centre rather than right anyway (although him and Bergkamp would both be relatively free, and at times Bergkamp could partner MvB more too).

    Wilkes wasn't left footed, but could surely attack with his dribbling on either flank, as well as more through the centre, so perhaps he'd be the main option off the bench (or coming into the starting line-up) in terms of adding a bit more in that respect.
     
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  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I do think MvB is capable of being great in both modes though, at his fittest and most sprightly anyway. Playing the hold-up and interplay role, or using his pace and skill, movement etc, to thrive on the counter-attack too. I guess the team I picked would be looking to do some of both, but mostly play a constructive, possession-based game that probably would involve pressing and an attacking style in general.

    Just as one example, he was dangerous on the break vs England in Euro 88. I don't know whether he'd have scored a few more goals from through balls in Serie A if the cynical foul wasn't so in vogue or was more heavily punished as it is now. But yes, of course he'd thrive on great service from the flanks and also on being able to get involved exchanging passes with on-rushing midfield players.
     
  10. Hidegkuti78

    Hidegkuti78 Member

    Sep 2, 2015
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    That's a good thread idea...
    The All-Time All-Lefty XI
     
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  11. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    I've already given my own take - always nice to see people ignoring it and then dump their own without any explanation - and don't want to derail it (like I said) but I think potentially too much (comparative) credit is given to the 1970s generation. This can be reasonably argued.
     
  12. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    #162 Perú FC, Nov 27, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
    Yes, I forgot de Munck and van Tiggelen.

    To be honest, I made the list of others only by memory, so surely I forget some outstanding (I'm unsure if van Bommel, Kuyt, Hasselbaink and van Hooijdonk deserve a mention) and I haven't followed much the progression of Daley Blind.

    For the 23-men squad I'd think on Frank de Boer as the first substitute for the left-back position.
     
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  13. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I hope you didn't feel I ignored it Puck. I said I loved the idea of Wilkes and Cruyff dribbling and playing balls through from midfield of course (by PM or on the thread), as stylistically that would be something I'd enjoy to see, and I also feel an effective tactic (in general I like to see plenty of ball playing ability in midfield and think the very best teams tend to have it; but it can be of the Xaviesta type or more leaning towards solo dribbling ability).

    I know you feel that in effect Cruyff helped the reputations of a lot of his team-mates, in hindsight, as they all became part of great teams which can only help their reputations, largely due to his impact (although of course they went on to reach the Final in 1978 too; but Ajax were clearly not the same without him). And I do think it's very feasible to take players from other generations above those from that one. It's a bit like the Hungary situation maybe, except the Netherlands have been producing a lot more stars and great teams too since their golden time than Hungary have. In putting Ronald de Boer in the mix, and not for example Wim Jansen, maybe I go along with that (perhaps that also tells of my emphasis towards the ball playing abilities too, but I truth I do tend to feel De Boer offered something closer to Jansen in terms of hard work , energy, being reliable etc than vice versa in terms of skills and incisiveness). Plenty of players in the squad I picked could play more of the anchor role in midfield if necessary anyway though - Rijkaard, Neeskens, Cocu, Van Hanegem probably, even Gullit.
     
  14. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #164 PuckVanHeel, Nov 27, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
    Yes, I know your ideas/perceptions behind the choices (what's behind it).

    I also mean Rinus Israel here (someone who rarely played/worked together with Cruijff). He had not a higher status in his time than Ronald Koeman (multiple top 10 finisher in the Ballon d'Or and a prolific creator, as well as one time most expensive defender in the world). It makes the 1970s over-represented.

    While of course there were some (very) good players, the consensus wasn't as overwhelming as it is now.

    Brian Glanville wrote in the 1975 World Football Handbook in the profile of JC14 as first sentence: "The living proof that one man can make a team." (italics not my own emphasis). Indeed, in the various (international) votes and accolades at the time itself his team mates are less heralded than the team mates of perceived underdog champion Maradona. That's a fact. But yes, Glanville was also meaning the (perceived) ability to improve team mates, with then Neeskens, Krol etc. getting (belated?) recognition after 1973.

    The OPTA twitter account states that Johan had the highest win percentage of all players ever in the Eredivisie (since 1953), with a minimum of 50 games played (there was something with the PD as well, but cannot find it now - logic tells me I remember this well because there were unbeaten records happening). Although Barcelona won only one title during his stay (others going to Atletico and Real Madrid), the points per game is actually the highest of all teams between 1973 and 1978, because of consistency.

    At the same time, we also know that his Eredivisie teams (between 1964 to 1973 and 1981 to 1984) achieved 30-40% points per game less when he wasn't playing (between 94 and 126 games in this period, depending on how you count). A pattern that holds (or increases) when looking at the international games for club and country, and his Barcelona + USA spell. Some have suggested this is because everything was channeled and funneled through him, but I don't find that entirely convincing.

    Davids and Seedorf were clearly instrumental players for their team. Davids played four Champions League finals, and was arguably the leading midfielder of Juventus after Zidane/Nedved. Seedorf played five Champions League finals (could have played six, if RM wasn't forced to sell him). For a supporting role they are good choices. For national team form I think it is very difficult to ignore Bergkamp (also one of the very best players of the 1990s decade I think; with 300+ career goals among the top of his generation, and you noticed the increase in points/wins too previously, thanks for those Aston Villa highlights).
     
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  15. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #165 PuckVanHeel, Nov 27, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2017
    Like you I had also for a time the doubt whether a healthy Robben is really better than a healthy Overmars in his time, I believe he should be on the bench or main XI (like I did). He can be on the left side too.

    Like many I had sometimes reservations about his discipline, but IIRC there was a phase under Heynckes and Guardiola where he was practically a wing-back and did his work well when relied upon without sagging his duties (others noted those 'full-back' or wing-back games too). He never had complete liberties, I know, but despite this I sometimes thought he was a luxury player.

    I didn't like either how he became more stereotypical (or it appeared so) over time (difficult to say whether that's his own 'fault' or disciplined coaches do that so, to what degree a bit of both), whereas for Chelsea but also in 2004 vs Czech he was going inside and outside with a lot more variation (seek on youtube). Against Costa Rica and other games at the 2014 World Cup as well (more variation).
    But past season against Real Madrid he did that again, including a cross with his right that was squandered by Vidal (seek on youtube), dribbling past Kroos on the outside and nutmegging Marcelo. That penalty he won was at the left side of the penalty area and not the right side. I like that style more and it was against an in form top class opponent. In those games he also seems to enjoy himself more, smiles more, than the "I'm going inside, full-back on the outside" games (my impression).

    Surprisingly, despite the presence of Lahm on the outside in the past and his stereotypical moves going inside, his crossing stats on WhoScored are (very) slightly better than the ones of Ribery. In number and proportion to 'inaccurate crosses' (per game and 90 minutes).

    edit: in comparison to Wilkes I think Wilkes his technique was considered more exceptional in his own time. His technical ability and mastery of the ball (especially with that size of him) was really a special sight for many across the continent (in Italy and Spain for sure). Also by British sources it was rated exceptionally high.
     
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  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, I even wondered whether he would be a fair winner of the 2014 Ballon d'Or myself in the end (this is not intended as an anti-CR7 post lol, or to get into discussing that....but to highlight that Robben had then really become a top player; exactly the same could be said of the World Cup Golden Ball I suppose anyway if being 'even' re: Messi/CR7).

    I know you had Wilkes in the main XI anyway, but in my selection he was keeping out Robben (and Rensenbrink) among the 5 subs I selected. I envisage Wilkes could do very well in the slot I put Bergkamp in potentially (or he could slot in where Cruyff is and Cruyff could play from deeper instead of Sneijder). Like you suggested, maybe his time as inside forward at Inter, could help enable him to play outright in the midfield too (probably following the tradition of Meazza's role in the late 30s for example, inside forwards did tend to be a bit withdrawn from the front line in Italy I think didn't they in the period Wilkes played there; although just like Meazza he was a player that thrived around the box too of course with his dribbling - I know you remember that great goal he scored in the inside right channel that I found on Youtube).
     
  17. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Juventus Football Clube Ajax Mineiro de Deportes
    Jun 11, 2012
    It is nice of you that you're now willing to discuss Koeman-Israel and others.
    Preferring Koeman to Israel based on NT representation would be a valid claim. However de Boer would then have a better one.
    Transfer money seems like an odd rating system. It is also uncommon within this forum. It may imply that Manchester's Peter Schmeichel was a shit purchase or that Seedorf should be a starter in your XI.
    Then you mention overrepresentation of the golden era. How is that not discrimination? And what if from all the superb players of that era, you got voted player of the year and Cruijff himself would hand you this award stating that you're a defender that's so hard to get past?

    Anyway, why not compare skillsets?
    Both players were reknowned distributers of the ball, Koeman with more fame. Both possessed good positioning and tackling ability, Israel with more fame. Israel covered more ground defensively. Nadal, Rijkaard etc covered about 60% of the area alongside Koeman.
    Koeman, just like de Boer, had slipups. Israel hardly did. Israel was a better header of the ball and scored goals. Koeman had an amazing shot and scored goals. Israel, with his resolute style, was a better captain. Koeman, eventually, became a better manager.
    Do you agree with this assessment?
     
  18. tLB Odiseo

    tLB Odiseo Member

    Necaxa, Galatasaray, Real Madrid
    Dec 18, 2011
    México
    Club:
    NEC
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    To be honest, your team have no sense.
     
  19. tLB Odiseo

    tLB Odiseo Member

    Necaxa, Galatasaray, Real Madrid
    Dec 18, 2011
    México
    Club:
    NEC
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    For me, Robben was the player who reached the highest peak of the year 2014 ... he probably should have won the Ballon d'Or

    My top of that year (2014).

    TOP 15
    1.
    C. RONALDO
    2. Arjen ROBBEN
    3. Thomas MÜLLER
    4. Lionel MESSI
    5. Philipp LAHM
    6. Toni KROOS
    7. Luka MODRIC
    8. Manuel NEUER
    9. Eden HAZARD
    10. Ángel DI MARÍA
    11. Yaya TOURÉ
    12. Diego COSTA
    13. Paul POGBA
    14. SERGIO RAMOS
    15. James RODRÍGUEZ
     
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  20. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I have repped your next post mate, and do appreciate the comments on that, but this one isn't fair or true IMO, or very polite to be honest.
     
  21. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Basically what I understand Puck's XI to be is his idea of the best possible team, based largely on performances for the National Team, and incorporating star players in roles they could play well, and did (or they played quite similar roles) at stages in their career.

    Of course Odiseo might make different choices on that basis too, which is fine. But I don't think the comment I quoted is fine. A fine post would have been (either quoting Puck's post if there was some reason, or not) to say "this is my idea of Dutch XI" and then posting it, perhaps with explanations. I don't think there is a need to slag other posters choices off (unless it's for 'fun' in world rivalries section maybe...!). I don't want to make it seem like I want to have a go at Odiseo anyway, but if nobody 'stood up' for Puck I guess he'd possibly be furious enough to do it himself.

    Hopefully this can blow over without big arguments anyway. I certainly don't want to be involved in any!
     
  22. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Just as one further note: if you remember Odiseo, you advised me about the Mexican players in World Cup 1998 (including correcting me slightly on Blanco's role) and that was fine and helpful because you surely know much more than me about Mexican football.

    But similarly, although it's a bit different with the Netherlands being a major team and with lots of famous players (so I'm not saying Puck's XI has to be better than yours by default), Puck is Dutch and does have a lot of knowledge about all these players. If you posted a Mexican XI and he said it made no sense, I guess you wouldn't like it very much and would even find it ridiculous?

    Ok, that's all now. Maybe if Odiseo can re-phrase something, or just offer his own team (if he hasn't already) that'll be a good outcome!
     
  23. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Thanks PDG but I wasn't that annoyed (any more). Previously I was a little bit annoyed how people just ignore it entirely and then just dump their own without any reasoning or explanation whatsoever. Also because I felt Peru FC his list does a disservice. As if there haven't been other good players since the 1970s, as if Johan was carried forward by a strong supporting cast (cf. the 'product of his time' myth while others are pimped up to being 'golden boys'). Both very debatable.
    I can respect though the view the major South American leagues were as good as the French league around 2007, even though I disagree fundamentally with that view (based on market value, delivering players for tournament squads etc.).
     
  24. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Oh, ok, no problem - I guess it just goes to show perceptions of what can be annoying/offensive to other people can be wrong!

    Likewise I didn't want to annoy Odiseo I should say, and did appreciate the Robben post.
     
  25. Sexy Beast

    Sexy Beast Member+

    Dinamo Zagreb
    Croatia
    Aug 11, 2016
    Zagreb
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    Croatia
    #175 Sexy Beast, Dec 19, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2017
    No, just no. Just because he was at top of his game you don't give him ballon d'Or or golden ball..
    It's pretty straightforward that Messi performed better than Robben at WC. His team got farther, they played the same amount of games (7), he scored more goals, had the same amount of assists, he created more, he took on more players, more forward passes, more passes, more of everything.
    Netherland scored 15 goals in 7 games, Robben was diretly involved in 4 of them, plus he dived vs Mexico. Argentina scored 8 goals, Messi was directly involved in 5 of them, plus had a "pre assist" vs Belgium.

    So not only Messi was better in every segment of the game statistically, he was also arguably more important part of his team than Robben of his, plus Argentina got farther. However you look at the comparison, Messi has the edge. It couldn't be more obvious than that. (and you can't go with "Messi didn't perform in KO stage" argument because neither did Robben. Everything Robben did, Messi did touch better than him.)


    This is my team for Netherland:
    [​IMG]
    I like 3 at the back for Netherland so i went with that. The point was to make a free flowing, very high pressing team. It's slightly tilted towards left, Cruyff has a bit more freedome offensively whilist Gullit is slightly bit wasted because he is expected to contribute defensively as well, but that's sacrifice i think he would be willing to take.

    Only doubt i have had is whether Bergkamp is capable of pressing like that. I would love to put Gullit in his position, but i am not sure who i would put on the right side instead. It would have to be someone capable of running up and down the pitch for 90 minutes. I am not sure if Suurbier would do the trick..

    I was going for hard working midfield that could win the ball and pass it to more creative players or make a defense splitting pass form the deep on counters (Seedorf mostly, to Van Basten mostly). I thought of Van Nisterlooy because of his individual ability to create his own shots, but naah, Van Basten can do that as well and he is superior player in almost every way.

    Krol - Koeman - Staam would mostly operate as the back three under Cruyff as a Barcelona manager. Koeman's long passing would be a valuable addition to the squad.
     

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