Indeed, that is exactly the idea of Zico and Cruyff in those classifications. Di Stéfano could also compete for the centre-forward position in that particular context, while Zico would look strange, I think (by role or position equally).
https://www.foxsports.com/soccer/ga...neuer-buffon-cech-van-der-sar-casillas-031417 But it will not compute...
Again (now you force me to respond): in the past we had an argument on Zico his categorization as an attacking midfielder (rather than forward) while you was adamant the other was more a forward than Zico was. So it had nothing to do with how to shoe horn in players or so. You just labelled Zico as AM anyway and the Cruijff as trequartista or SS. And yes, that labeling has been very much a ploy to make Zico, Maradona and others even more impressive. Meanwhile, your Christmas tree attempt once again shows the points I mean, with flimsy talk about dimensions, and of course it will never register in your brain who actually is the most decorated goalkeeper for top five leagues, with the best record in the Champions League. That is where I leave it.
I found it interesting to recover another world XI that Puck published in another thread 6 years ago: https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/all-star-teams-of-1986-world-cup.1979342/page-2#post-27787261
There is no problem from my position, but I do believe that it is counterproductive for @PuckVanHeel himself because although I believe that several of his arguments are meaningless, I also believe he usually has data that could be taken more seriously if not combined with personal problems/bias. Exactly. Trying to find hidden stratagems about it does not make the slightest sense.
Indeed, adaptability will surely help him for an exercise like this. In a rigid voting system he could share the same category for position with Pelé (and Maradona) and be virtually out of competition to appear in the final XI.
If you really draw conclusions from that you are wrong because that was not my statement, nor did you answer such a thing. I mentioned what I think their main roles would be for a classification by categories: Zico (AM, alongside Platini or Maradona) and Cruyff (FW, alongside Pelé or Puskás) and in the context of rankings in general (by groups), not in a formation of a team, while you categorically denied that Zico was a playmaker/attacking-midfielder, as if the margin between being that type of attacking-midfielder and being a forward is not narrow for many cases. Here is a tergiversation and then it was a very rare opinion for you about (if you know him) about a player as well known as Zico and his playmaking abilities. What I should emphasize is the use you make of the phrase "realistically not close", assuming that "reality" is your own criteria by your own parameters (and, actually, without even reading the message). Scarone is, in my opinion, probably the best footballer of his decade in his position (1920's), as Baggio could be the best of his own (1990's) and the mere fact that I think he could be classified among the best 15 options for their positions in the whole history makes them realistically very close options without a doubt for me, even when his final inclusion is very complicated by the competition. It is the same perspective difference that guided you to think that 25 positions in all-time ranking of players of every position could represent a great level difference between 2 players. And nothing stops you, however, in those lists you can notice what are my own limits according to what each player could offer differently in different lineups.
At least we have an agreement, hehehe. Yes, I read that absurd before, but I didn't have much time to answer you and I guessed it was just a nonsense. Assuming you believe your own claim I also must assume that you have not realized that it is from a list (1999) that... I have not even concluded yet (as literal as absurd as clueless and it could be because you haven't followed the thread these last months). Ok, if it makes sense to you, hehehe. I did not mean that you agreed, but that I already mentioned some reasons in another thread and that is why it is not necessary to repeat them here because they remain the same. I'm always open to criticism, but that does not mean that I accept them all. First I analyze them and I believe that yours in that discussion are poor (not the data, but the forced way in which you want to interpret them due to a very overwhelmed bias, too much, and to support you in supposed mythologies, marketing and novel plots to whatever gets in the way is very silly for me). About Baggio, yes, you selected him based on his peak, but I also questioned you, among others, that it seems that you did not take into account or minimized the consistency of the best period(s) of his career. That would be healthy (and not only in this thread, hehehe).
If you think my analysis of Baggio, Baresi, Lahm (vs Dani Alves) etc. his career is poor, then discuss that. Discuss the misrepresentation of his goals and assists against elite teams (for national team), or his Ballon d'Or nominations. Instead the only thing you do is a season-by-season listdump with some general remarks about dimensions and other vague and flimsy nonsense. Like everyone else I can be wrong at times but I am infinitely more right than you, with your blatant lies (checking all Junior games in the RAI archives), your dumb posts with fancy boldfaces (not that this should be surprising: Peru ranks very low in the IQ and honesty stakes), your incessant knocking down of certain countries across the whole range. You are prime example of the double handicap brigade, or in case of a Thiago Silva they get a second chance for this.
And this is again another great example. In reality Cruijff had the 2nd most passes of his team (just behind Haan) and his average position is just as deep as Maradona (who played btw as a forward in the KO stages of 1986). But oh well, he gets compared to scoring monsters as Puskas and Pele, while Maradona has the 'he was midfielder' excuse. It is a ploy. Plain and simple. It is a ploy to have Di Stefano as midfielder and him as forward. Meanwhile, the world cup doppelgangers tool does list Zico as a goalscorer and Cruijff as a dynamic playmaker (just as Maradona and later Hazard). But it will not register in your brain. Anyway, I will just ignore you from now on and not derail this thread further.
In my view not out of competition no, but certainly diminished number of votes would be very likely in that different kind of format yes. I would ask again now (and of course it can be ignored, but it is a request from me (with no moderator powers of course!), so if you both respect me and the premise of the thread maybe you'll like to go along with it) that Peru and Puck you take a break from arguing with each other, or responding to each others points, or talking to others but having a go at the other in the process etc. Thanks. I don't want to be overly critical of either of you, but I just think it is better if the thread doesn't descend into bitterness. I hope you both understand. Both of you have certainly contributed a lot to the forum. Puck has been very friendly with me including by PM, and I know he wouldn't want this to seem like criticism of him by me (which it is not), and I already felt I had a good relationship with Peru even going back before that to the first Sheep Drafts etc. Whether Peru has or hasn't embellished things re: what he has watched in the past (I wouldn't know or want to comment) or whether Puck would think himself he has been a bit too quick to argue agressively (you now get on well with krokko Puck of course, and were very nice about Titanlux's posts here) or not sometimes, I think it just isn't helpful to get into some fued is it? I'm pretty sure you are both decent guys! Maybe both of you can consider that it is not certain that you are right, or that 'truth' or the best options when picking teams are not straightforward. Maybe you can both consider that it is best if it is fun and done in good spirits (I don't want to stifle opinions though, and I know it is a fine balance, but maybe the best way to give opinions is to do your own run down of who'd be in contention and of course some analysis about why if you like...but not to make it about a competition with others but just more about your own vote and thoughts).
This is definitely nitpicking, but if Maradona wins the no.11 role, how exactly do we see him operate in such a role? I feel like he's a bit wasted out wide on the left, and if he cuts inside, Maldini is not exactly the kind of marauding wingback that would make the best use of his runs. Honestly, I'm still struggling to figure out how attackers like Pele, Messi, and Maradona can all fit together.
One comment on the position thing re: Zico/Cruyff from me (but I certainly don't want to be claiming I am right and the one to be listened to either lol, so just a perspective I can offer): I remember in the old days when we did do those Sheep Drafts, that when Peru you yourself listed the selected ones that you classified them in several positions sometimes. With that in mind Cruyff could be classified both as a forward (FW) and attacking midfielder (AM). Even false 9 specifically maybe. And the same for Zico (because it's arguable re: Flamengo seemingly, but sometimes for Brazil and certainly for Udinese it seems he operated more as a forward than at other times). When Cruyff was back in the Netherlands he did play very well in the 80s as a midfielder, and he had played quite often for Barcelona in that role too I think. And of course (Puck's point I suppose, but again I'm not trying to take sides), because in the mid 70s he was like a roaming false 9, it is true that in terms of role he could seem more like an attacking midfielder - a main part of his function being creating things, dropping deep, sometimes helping defensively etc. But do I understand why Zico (in South American terminology) can be classified as AM? yes, I think so, just like a Hidegkuti could (Platini sometimes yes too, but I think at times he was a true midfielder more than Zico ever was, and even with a 'free role' in some respects at Juventus he played from quite deep generally it seems to me). I hope this comes over as intended. Not claiming I know everything, but just offering the perspective that both of you have fair points.
I suppose there is a bit of a question about what all-time XI means and how to achieve a balance between maximising the functionality, and maximising the skill and overall football capabilities. The thing is it's an untried scenario to put such players together! In terms of similar things, it can be that a team collecting the best individuals can gel them well together or it can be (like at Real Madrid with the Galacticos although in truth they were an aged bunch, away from prime fitness etc) that the cost of buying them isn't matched with trophy haul. It depends with Maradona, what system people choose I guess. I had him as much inside left as outside left I guess (with Cruyff as well as Maldini on that side). Others may be lining him up primarily as a wide player. Maybe part of it is recognition of the best players like I say though. He did have a very precise cross on him from that side and could be very elusive when running down the left of the pitch I think too.
This was it: If you think this is incomplete or so, that is fine, but the only response I got was some vague rambling about 'dimension', Baggio the more equisite technique (well, simulators do not fully agree) and a season-by-season listdump with fancy boldfaces. No response whatsoever on Baggio his low influence on the team results, the penalties or his best accomplishments. That's all and I leave it here.
In his younger days Maldini had those forward runs I think. That 1990 video is from before his grades became really good, but yes his goals and assists do not compare to Roberto Carlos or so.
I've watched both the '89 and '90 European Cup final in full, and I can't say I was particularly impressed with Maldini's offensive skill set in either game.
If we pick Maradona to play as a winger, isn't there simply better options out there? Or maybe not. If we play with Maradona to have him dribble and put in wicked crosses, doesn't that make someone like a van Basten suddenly more useful for the XI as well? I agree though there is no perfect answer as to where the balance is between getting the most talent onto the field, and maximizing the theoretical collective efficiency.
Yeah I see what you mean, this is a decent analysis of his abilities https://spielverlagerung.de/2015/12/12/tuerchen-12-paolo-maldini/
I thought of similar, hehehe. Yes, of course, don't doubt it. The only thing to motivates me to participate is to exchange football ideas and learn. I don't have any personal against @PuckVanHeel nor will I have it, no matter his position on it. As I think you can notice, I prefer base this kind of generic lineups a bit more on including the best players (from my criteria) in a scheme that makes sense instead of looking for the "ideal" scheme (I think that really can't be established as well without a rival in front). My first idea in that Christmas Tree was to make the first 2 strong lines to give freedom to the 3 most offensive players and use the most prominent names in that regard to break enemy lines in transition with explosions, speed and precision. Although I shuffled the option of Cruyff, in that context I think he could only be a option for one of the trequartista positions (I think he could not fit even as false 9 in this type of system) and I consider Pelé and Messi over him in general. Even about different versions of the Christmas Tree (with a striker more in a holding type mode), I don't see any reason why that type of attack would not be functional.
As long as you sleep quiet (since you tag me above). Your classifications of positions (FW, SS) and your comment JC14 is "out of competition" (sic) next to Maradona for an all-time XI are completely laughable and devoid of any credible logic. All those fancy boldfaces and listdumps cannot hide how shallow your thinking is. Your chopping down of Champions League and league topscorers from a seasonal top 100 very revealing. Sadly, your side and pals are winning. The infinitely more intelligent Ariaga with his chopping down of dutch legends (with other obscure players featuring in multiple eras) while integrally quoting and following the german usual suspect for his project another such dude. It is flogging a dead horse and therefore I take a break now (for real).
Interesting thread About Cruyff, for me he is in TOP 3 of all time. It's mean, he would be in my all time 11
What I think is poor is the way in which you try to link a lot of data by forcing them towards a highly biased view (and it is not my intention to give you back your aggressiveness, but it seems sickly). To discuss your arguments had its time (here and in many other threads), but it is obvious after many civilized attempts that your intention is not to discuss, but fight and you have no control over yourself, enough to get to nonsense like this: And even worse, repeatedly (and ironically referring to IQ, hehehe). Or this: It saves me having to write much more, to be honest. As I always tell you, I'm always willing to argue with you if you get serious, but if you go out with those type of madness and you're still personally resentful for the reason you have in mind (against me and my "pals", hehehe), well, wasting my time in personal fights is not my priority and damages the threads. It would be the healthiest. I hope it is fulfilled this time.
Sorry for that @PDG1978. Certainly even responding calmly I can see how I contribute to damage the development of the thread. I promise you there will be no more response to Puck from me. I guess it's the best.
Well, yes, although the truth is that those lists were not intended to be very rigorous, but only to order them to make easier the selections. What I was doing was listing and ordering their possible roles according to which I believed were the most related to them, as in the pages of PES Stats: ZICO (AM, SS) CRUYFF, Johan (SS, AM, WF, CF) In Spanish and South America Zico would be classified as mediapunta (is the most usual). A problem, however, is that in Spanish a mediapunta has an opening mean: Posiciones del fútbol: Mediapunta. The margin with regard to a segundo delantero is sometimes almost non-existent. In Portuguese the nomenclature of his usual position is meia-atacante.