All-Time XI voting thread

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by PDG1978, Oct 14, 2019.

  1. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I don't recall this being done on Big Soccer yet, so thought it might be an idea to start a thread in which everyone can select their All-Time XI and I can keep a tally of votes for each player and also keep track of the combined Big Soccer All-Time XI (with people free to change their votes having changed their mind or perhaps being so impressed with new candidates that they find a place for them).

    It's a familiar concept for journalists of course. For example not so long ago World Soccer surveyed lots of them:
    https://www.worldsoccer.com/features/the-greatest-xi-how-the-panel-voted-341427
    As Puck showed, Placar conducted a poll in 1981:
    http://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/placar-greatest-footballers-1981-1999.1987390/

    Towards the end of last century Voetbal International asked readers to vote for such an XI too for example as shown at the bottom of this page:
    http://www.rsssf.com/miscellaneous/best-x-players-of-y.html#vi-xi
    I did think about categorising players by position like that, but instead of specifying a formation (or a certain number of midfielders/attackers etc) I thought outlining potential roles in the team but allowing free choice (if the choices are valid in terms of where the players can and did play) as to which roles to put the players in would be the best call. So it is close to allowing complete free choice on the XI, but should ensure that the formation chosen does resemble a normal football team.

    Using theoretical shirt numbers (you'd quite possibly allocate them differently in your XI) I have the roles as these:
    1 - Goalkeeper
    2 - Right back/Wing back
    3 - Left back/Wing back
    4 - Libero or anchor midfielder
    5 - Covering defender or stopper
    6 - Supporting defender or marker
    7 - Supporting attacker or midfield winger (right)
    8 - Box to box/Central midfielder
    9 - Centre forward
    10 - Attacking midfielder or trequartista
    11 - Supporting attacker or midfield winger (left)

    So to show my own vote as an example:
    1 - Lev Yashin
    2 - Cafu
    3 - Paolo Maldini
    4 - Franz Beckenbauer
    5 - Franco Baresi
    6 - Bobby Moore
    7 - Pele
    8 - Michel Platini
    9 - Marco van Basten
    10 - Johan Cruyff
    11 - Diego Maradona

    So that team would be valid in this Christmas Tree formation (the one I'll choose):
    Yashin; Cafu, Baresi, Moore, Maldini; Platini, Beckenbauer, Cruyff; Pele, Maradona; Van Basten

    But these other formations (that I consider almost equally!) would be valid too (wing-back system with sweeper, 4-3-1-2 and 4-2-2-2 Magic Square respectively)
    Yashin; Beckenbauer; Cafu, Baresi, Moore, Maldini; Platini, Cruyff; Maradona; Pele, Van Basten
    Yashin; Cafu, Baresi, Moore, Maldini; Platini, Beckenbauer, Cruyff; Maradona; Pele, Van Basten
    Yashin; Cafu, Baresi, Moore, Maldini; Platini, Beckenbauer; Cruyff, Maradona; Pele, Van Basten

    So as you can see various formations will be acceptable and it is not hyper strict in terms of allowing players in certain roles. I've put Platini as a central midfielder myself for example, when obviously he could be an attacking midfielder too (and in my first choice nominated formation he is in effect sharing midfield duties with Cruyff as a nominal right side central midfielder, with Cruyff nominally a left side central midfielder). The supporting attacker roles can be, as in my 4-2-2-2 example, tweeked and split up so that one becomes an attacking midfielder and the other a support striker. Pele could have been picked as a trequartista, in a team with two midfield wingers or in a 4-2-3-1 for example (as shown in another thread if I use 4-2-3-1 one then Messi actually makes my team rather than Maradona).

    Everyone has free choice in terms of how much to value peak level and how much career when selecting players (as tends to be the case with these votes I think), but like I say the main thing is to make the team resemble a feasible selection of a real line-up (which isn't always the case with all-star selections).

    Free free to get voting, and I'll keep a track of how things progress!
     
    La-Máquina, Gregoriak, Perú FC and 2 others repped this.
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    For me the problem is that there are about ~60 good candidates for this (arguably more).

    Thus some players fit for multiple positions and some others are an option for that particular position.

    I'd select Messi as the striker. He can/could play there (perhaps not any more today). It is a logical solution for me.
     
    PDG1978 repped this.
  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, feel free to work through your thoughts on the thread if you want Puck. I will keep track of things and spot any nominated line-ups as we go, but if people including yourself want to make longer posts with run-downs of candidates then that's fine of course.

    I might even come back myself at some point and list a suggested 20 names per slot as a guide list like VI did, but any names outside of those 20 (which would be more like personal choice to a large extent I suppose inevitably) are fine too (within reason anyway), and as I said I don't want to pigeon hole players into just one option.
     
  4. pregra

    pregra Member

    Barcelona
    Argentina
    Dec 1, 2008
    Norway
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    1 - Iker Casillas
    2 - Dani Alves
    3 - Paolo Maldini
    4 - Frank Rijkaard
    5 - Daniel Passarella
    6 - Franco Baresi
    7 - Lionel Messi
    8 - Lothar Matthäus
    9 - Marco van Basten
    10 - Diego Maradona
    11 - Johan Cruyff
     
    Gregoriak, Perú FC and PDG1978 repped this.
  5. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Ok, thanks mate.

    That is a first valid vote received!

    I'll not start tallying up just yet but it's pretty evident how the voting stands at the moment, and we'd have a number of tied votes in various positions so showing the current overall Big Soccer XI is a bit impossible/pointless before a few more votes have come in I think.
     
  6. wm442433

    wm442433 Member

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    1 - Yashin (priority to the ancient one but I consider Buffon and Neuer too, in this tier)
    2 - Krol
    3 - Maldini
    4 - Beckenbauer
    5 - Scirea
    (personal preference over Baresi but it's... equal, imo)
    6 - Di Stéfano
    7 - Maradona
    8 - Platin
    i
    9 - Pele
    10 - Messi
    11 - Cruijff


    My Dream Team plays a flat 4-4-2 :

    ----------------------Yashin----------------------------
    ------Krol----Scirea----Beckenbauer---Maldini--
    Maradona---Di Stefano---Platini---Cruijff--------
    ------------------Messi-------Pelé-------------------

    Hope this is valid. Otherwise, I'll pick Tigana instead of Di Stefano and play a "4-1-3-2".
     
    Gregoriak, Perú FC and PDG1978 repped this.
  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Thanks mate - great to see your team here!

    Yeah, that does look a pretty valid choice in terms of playing a 4-4-2 to be fair, but so I'm being consistent in terms of the role descriptions (Di Stefano as an anchor midfielder would be a stretch I suppose, even if he could do it if he really wanted I'm sure) we'll put Tigana in with the number 4 shirt and Beckenbauer can be number 6 according my opening post (if Baresi/Moore is valid I think Scirea/Beckenbauer can be in the same 'covering defender' with 'supporting defender' combination - you know fully well how a double 'sweeper' combination can work of course being French and thinking of Battiston/Bossis in the World Cup 1986!).
     
  8. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    If you object more to not going with the 4-4-2 with Di Stefano in than anybody else does to allowing it then I'd be open to going that way though wm still! I know you were open to putting Tigana in though, so no worries either way I guess.

    I was suggesting being quite loose on the definitions anyway of course, and it did look like a very functional and capable 4-4-2 to be fair. And including the best players in a valid formation does tend to need some compromises somewhere in terms of ideal roles (but as I said I was thinking we'd at least avoid teams looking too much like all-star selections doing it this way).

    So when I come to start tallying up votes maybe we can look at that again and decide!
     
  9. wm442433

    wm442433 Member

    Sep 19, 2014
    Club:
    FC Nantes
    Ok, let's wait and see.

    (about Scirea, I think he had without a doubt the attributes of a 'stopper' in his game, is rather 'composite', perhaps is even more 'stopper' than 'attacking libero' globally + covering libero more too... so the combination with Krol who is more attacking but also can cover for Scirea... and the same thing but with an inverted balance between Beck and Maldini on the other 'half of the defense'... voilà-voilà)
     
    PDG1978 repped this.
  10. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    #10 Perú FC, Oct 14, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 14, 2019
    La-Máquina, Gregoriak and PDG1978 repped this.
  11. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Thanks Peru.

    So at this very early stage, already we have just 3 players in all selections - Maldini, Cruyff and Maradona!

    The consensus XI is a bit unclear at this stage, but Pele might be missing it (despite being in 75% of selections - all but one of them) due to being selected in various roles and with Cruyff and Maradona making the team surely even though both have two #11 votes each. I suppose Maradona as #11, Cruyff as #10, Van Basten as #9, Platini as #8, Messi as #7 seems to be how it is. Baresi at #6 currently, and Beckenbauer at #4, with Yashin in goal at #1. Numbers 2 and 5 are unclear - on a first to be selected basis Cafu and Passarella would be nominally in there I guess (Passarella because Moore was selected as #6, although I guess Passarella on the left of the partnership with Baresi would be the most likely way to draw it still), even though that would prioritise my own selection! As things develop we should have less tied placings I think.

    Alternatively, on a 'most selections' basis, Pele would be making the team instead of Van Basten currently I guess. But my idea was to list which players had the most selections but to show the consensus XI based on which players had been selected in each role the most. Di Stefano and Platini are kind of tied for the number 8 shirt in a 'most selections' team maybe too (but in wm's 4-4-2 which I'm thinking even more now should be allowed as a vote probably, Di Stefano would have been the number 4 according to my role descriptions, and Platini the number 8).
     
    Gregoriak repped this.
  12. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    #12 poetgooner, Oct 15, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
    I guess my question is, how much stock do we put into talent and how much into creating a balanced and synergistic XI? And how much liberty can we take with roles? For example, can I imagine Maldini as an RB?
     
  13. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    To elaborate. In the 2010s XI, we talked about how the 3rd player in the front line should complement Messi/Ronaldo, the two players we look to maximize. Let's imagine for a second that Neymar is the 3rd best player of the decade, but he may not be as good a fit as Lewandowski (let's imagine he's the 8th best player of the decade). Is that the approach we should take?

    Even in an all-time XI, there are players who you want to maximize. Also, at that level, the gap in quality between the best player in a position, and the 5th best is tiny anyway, but their synergy difference can be big.
     
  14. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    #14 PDG1978, Oct 15, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
    So coming back to the idea of guide lists, although not really necessary, I guess I'd have ended up with something like this (modelling it mostly on a 4-3-3 concept - either as more of a Christmas Tree or with wider supporting forwards).

    I'd have been tempted to just pick from the last 75 years, but thought that naming some of the most obvious and revered players from before that would be the best call. Some of the #10 options could more likely play from a right side midfield position, and some of the #8 ones perhaps from the left moreso, as I'm numbering them based on categorising as attacking midfielder or central midfielder. Because of the formation I had in mind for my own selections I end with Hassler more as #10 than #7 for example, and because of having in mind selecting further teams in priority order rather than simply selecting the best roles then I've put Puskas as centre-forward in the lists rather than supporting attacker (left), and Zico as another one who is in the #7 list (like Pele, assuming a similar role in a Christmas Tree potentially) rather than #10.

    #1
    1-10 (Gordon Banks, Gianluigi Buffon, Rinat Dasaev, Gyula Grosics, Michel Preud'homme, Peter Schmeichel, Peter Shilton, Ricardo Zamora, Lev Yashin, Dino Zoff)
    11-20 (Vladimir Beara, Ubaldo Fillol, Gilmar, Ronnie Hellstrom, Pat Jennings, Oliver Kahn, Sepp Maier, Manuel Neuer, Neville Southall, Ivo Viktor)

    #2
    1-10 (Manuel Amoros, Jose Leandro Andrade, Cafu, Carlos Alberto, Jorginho, Manfred Kaltz, Djalma Santos, Wim Suurbier, Berti Vogts, Javier Zanetti)
    11-20 (Dani Alves, Victor Rodriguez Andrade, Jocelyn Angloma, Patrick Battiston, Giussepe Bergomi, Eric Gerets, Leandro, Danny McGrain, Nelinho, Dan Petrescu)

    #3
    1-10 (Andreas Brehme, Paul Breitner, Maxime Bossis, Antonio Cabrini, Giacinto Facchetti, Bixente Lizarazu, Silvio Marzolini, Paolo Maldini, Roberto Carlos, Nilton Santos)
    11-20 (Hans-Peter Briegel, Tommy Gemmell, Robert Jarni, Junior, Rafael Gordillo, Phillip Lahm, Marinho Chagas, Karl-Heinz Schnellinger, Adri van Tiggelen, Gianluca Zambrotta)

    #4
    1-10 (Franz Beckenbauer, Jozsef Bozsik, Duncan Edwards, Johan Neeskens, Ernst Ocwirk, Frank Rijkaard, Matthias Sammer, Jean Tigana, Obdulio Varela, Patrick Vieira)
    11-20 (Osvaldo Ardiles, Sergio Busquets, Clodoaldo, Edgar Davids, Roy Keane, Soren Lerby, Pirri, Bryan Robson, Marco Tardelli, Zito)

    #5
    1-10 (Franco Baresi, Laurent Blanc, Domingos Da Guia, Elias Figueroa, Alan Hansen, Fernando Hierro, Ruud Krol, Jose Nasazzi, Alessandro Nesta, Gaetano Scirea)
    11-20 (Miodrag Belodedici, Alessandro Costacurta, Karl-Heinz Forster, Ronald Koeman, Sandor Matrai, Anton Ondrus, Jose Santamaria, Albert Shesternyov, Marius Tresor, Wladyslaw Zmuda)

    #6
    1-10 (Fabio Cannavaro, John Charles, Marcel Desailly, Bobby Moore, Daniel Passarella, Gyorgy Sarosi, Lilian Thuram, Virgil van Dijk, Pietro Vierchowod, Branko Zebec)
    2-20 (Aldair, Sol Campbell, Ricardo Carvalho, Hector Chumpitaz, Rinus Israel, Jurgen Kohler, Paul McGrath, Gerard Pique, Oscar Ruggeri, Billy Wright)

    #7
    1-10 (Dennis Bergkamp, Luis Figo, Garrincha, Ruud Gullit, Stanley Matthews, Giussepe Meazza, Lionel Messi, Pele, Karl-Heinz Rummenigge, Zico)
    11-20 (Kurt Hamrin, Gzregorz Lato, Jairzinho, Jimmy Johnstone, Julinho, Raymond Kopa, Laszlo Kubala, Brian Laudrup, Pierre Littbarski, Arjen Robben)

    #8
    1-10 (Bobby Charlton, Kazimierz Deyna, Didi, Glenn Hoddle, Nils Liedholm, Lothar Matthaus, Fernando Redondo, Michel Platini, Xavi, Zinedine Zidane)
    1-10 (Giancarlo Antognoni, Mario Coluna, Paulo Roberto Falcao, Paul Gascoigne, Andres Iniesta, Josef Masopust, Gunter Netzer, Enzo Scifo, Dragan Stojkovic, Wim van Hanegem)

    #9
    1-10 (Eusebio, Thierry Henry, Jurgen Klinsmann, Gerd Muller, Ferenc Puskas, Romario, Ronaldo, Andriy Shevchenko, Marco van Basten, George Weah)
    11-20 (Gabriel Batistuta, Preben Elkjaer, Just Fontaine, Jimmy Greaves, Denis Law, Gary Lineker, Sandor Kocsis, Silvio Piola, Paolo Rossi, Davor Suker)

    #10
    1-10 (Roberto Baggio, Eric Cantona, Johan Cruyff, Alfredo Di Stefano, Gheorghe Hagi, Dejan Savicevic, Juan Schiaffino, Raul, Gianni Rivera, Francesco Totti)
    11-20 (Thomas Hassler, Nandor Hidegkuti, Kaka, Sandro Mazzola, Valentino Mazzola, Pavel Nedved, Rivelino, Rui Costa, Matthias Sindelar, Socrates)

    #11
    1-10 (George Best, Kenny Dalglish, Dragan Dzajic, Tom Finney, Mario Kempes, Michael Laudrup, Diego Maradona, Robert Pires, Ronaldinho, Cristiano Ronaldo)
    11-20 (Florian Albert, Jan Ceulemans, Teofilo Cubillas, Ryan Giggs, Eden Hazard, Jose Manuel Moreno, Neymar, Rob Rensenbrink, Rivaldo, Tostao)
     
    comme and Gregoriak repped this.
  15. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yeah, basically it's a matter of take it all into account and make whichever calls you see fit! I don't want to prescribe a certain method or way of looking at it, for everyone to follow (I'd be pretty sure not everyone would want to anyway!), so outside of roughly matching the formation with the 'roles' in post 1 anything goes really.
     
  16. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Bolzplatz
    --11-Diego MARADONA---------9-Johan CRUYFF---------------7-Lionel MESSI

    --------------------------------10-PELÉ -----------------------8-Bobby CHARLTON


    ________------------_________-4-Franz BECKENBAUER


    --3-Paolo MALDINI----6-Frank RIJKAARD------5-Franco BARESI ---2-Dani ALVES------


    ------------------------------------------------1-Manuel NEUER
     
    PDG1978 repped this.
  17. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Thanks for your vote Gregoriak.

    It puts Dani Alves in the early consensus XI now, but doesn't resolve who is deemed to partner Baresi in defence (Moore, Passarella, Figueroa, Scirea and Rijkaard are all tied basically at the moment)!

    Pele does now oust Van Basten though I think, and Cruyff might now be the number 9 (or false 9 probably).

    I'll wait a bit longer before tallying anything though still.

    Feel free to ignore those guidelists everyone anyway lol - as I said they are my own choices and various players from outside them will be considerations I know, plus the roles are changeable...and I think it was particularly difficult to marry the idea of the roles I set out with the fact that various formations are possible! I guess, as with the VI lists, in theory they could help jog people's memory about certain players, even if most people won't need help to pick their all-time XI I think anyway!
     
  18. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I'd say Rijkaard is in the team because of his two overall votes actually, so we probably do have this as the early consensus XI:

    1 Yashin, 2 Alves, 3 Maldini, 4 Beckenbauer, 5 Baresi, 6 Rijkaard, 7 Messi, 8 Platini, 9 Cruyff, 10 Pele, 11 Maradona

    Which I guess would line up in a 4-1-2-3 looking at the votes, but it could be more of a 4-2-3-1 is more suited for a real line-up with Pele further forward than Platini, and moving into the striker role when Cruyff roams.
     
  19. Tom Stevens

    Tom Stevens Member+

    Dec 12, 2012
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    1 - Gianluigi Buffon
    2 - Ruud Krol
    3 - Paolo Maldini
    4 - Franz Beckenbauer
    5 - Franco Baresi
    6 - Elias Figueroa
    7 - Lionel Messi
    8 - Xavi
    9 - Alfredo Di Stefano
    10 - Pele
    11 - Johan Cruyff
     
    PDG1978 repped this.
  20. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Thanks Tom.

    The notable take-aways from that vote:
    - Buffon is joint top for the goalkeeper slot now (arguably taking the tie-breaker as wm had him 'equal' with Yashin, the goalie he went with and the other one with two votes so far)
    - First vote for Xavi, who by my quick count becomes the 26th chosen player, in the 6 votes received so far.
    - Di Stefano now has more votes than Platini, if considered a valid part of wm's selection, but is still behind him in the race for the #8 central midfield berth.
    - Figueroa is into the overall XI now, with two votes for a central defensive position.
    - Krol is tied with Alves in the right back voting: I guess losing the tie-breaker at this point due to Alves reaching two votes first, or feasibly because it's Alves's main position (but Krol certainly has played there and is an acceptable choice for sure).
     
  21. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    So to an extent this is a random selection from those ~60 names but if I'd like to improve your own selection:

    1 - Buffon
    2 - Dani Alves
    3 - Paolo Maldini
    4 - Jose Leandro Andrade
    5 - Franz Beckenbauer
    6 - Frank Rijkaard
    7 - Pele
    8 - Michel Platini
    9 - Lionel Messi
    10 - Johan Cruyff
    11 - Diego Maradona

    -------------------

    - I don't think Buffon is so far ahead of others in the past 25 years, logically others are close to him (in a combination of achievements and influence on that with varying defenses in front of them) but would have him ahead of Yashin I think. Logically he is ahead.

    - As you know I'm a bit of a sceptic on Maldini at times, in the way he's a top 20 all-timer, but the question is always 'who else?'. This is just the least stacked position of them all. On his 1993-94 peak and/or longevity there isn't a better choice to displace the 'default'.

    - I'd pick a proper defensive player in midfield. Andrade looks as a good pick based on contemporary accounts. Hard to verify with video material to what extent he was a focused screener. Very hard to compare him with a Busquets obviously (who has been the best the past decade, I think - see Sweden vs Spain for confirmation...) or the move-first-think-later Matthaus (okay, okay, next to Steven Gerrard he was a cerebral player).

    - Bobby Moore is of course a great but his club career isn't so fantastic and how many great performances did he have for England in the end? Fifteen if you add it all up?

    - Sorry, I know you see it different, but Dani Alves is for me just a better footballer as Cafu. Will not repeat myself on Dani Alves here.

    - I've said it before but Rijkaard wins the direct comparison vs Baresi for me personally. He won more of everything (except the World Cup, in which the uncapped Baresi played 0 minutes), had the goals and assists at many important moments, was no less influential (statistically) and it's also a funny fact Rijkaard never lost a competitive game against Baresi, and lost only once a friendly against him (1-0 away). In Ballon d'Or he also compares well. Yes Baresi was once 2nd but Rijkaard has more podium finishes.

    - Van Basten might well have won four or five Ballon d'Ors without injuries (who knows), and more than three World Player of the Year awards, but of course he ain't going to displace Messi, despite the latter under-performance in a dozen national team tournaments. For sure he was an effective and tactically clever all-rounder (quite a few 9/10s in the trophy winning games we've seen), and for that Milan's results and goals without him speak for itself (with national team caliber players as his replacements).

    - Have my reservations about Maradona too and the mythology around it (no, he is not the ultimate underdog player, just no), despite him clearly the best player of the 1980s as a whole, but maybe you shouldn't logically explain an illogical player (so few 'big goals' as a free role player?). Who is the first alternative for this left sided spot? Cristiano Ronaldo I think. OPTA stats show Platini was a (very!) significantly better through-baller at World Cup level, per game and per 90 minutes.


    All in all I think there are about 50-60 candidates for this.
     
    PDG1978 repped this.
  22. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Thanks Puck. As we've said before it's inevitable we'll disagree with some perceptions and make some different calls on some different topics etc, but to be fair everyone voting so far has picked a different XI and anyway you've kept a few things the same as my team even, with those given numbers 7, 10 and 11 for example!

    It's always difficult with the players from so long ago, but I believe Andrade was quite a dynamic player, and a diagram schwuppe showed did indicate more of a right sided role (almost like a wing-back, or Alves himself maybe, but I know as people including comme I think have said before that the old wing-half role did involve doing work infield too). Let me know if you want to change him with anyone of course, but as things stand I'll count a vote for him.

    Thinking about the way Rijkaard played in Euro 88 for example, I can certainly see how he'd do well with a Beckenbauer potentially.

    For quite a while I probably wasn't, but now I would err to being on the side of saying Messi has been a better player than Van Basten probably yes, but I felt for such a 'centre-forward' role (notwithstanding how prolific Messi was as a not-so-false false 9) Van Basten might be the more complete in that position and excel more in bringing others into the game (from that position as the furthest player up the pitch mostly I mean, with hold up play etc...as much as I always generally envisage a passing game even when not picking the best players of all-time!). His pure scoring technique and instincts as a traditional striker were better too I guess. Messi would maybe be more of a challenger to Maradona in my line-up, but like I said I was erring to Messi for a 4-2-3-1 but Maradona for the system I went with (also Messi for consistency of output, though the era and his role play a part in that, but Maradona for peak and for being able to grasp a game with more unpredictable and varied skills and verve I think at his best....though at International level perhaps he had the easier task in that era in contrast).

    I think I prefer not to get into too long a debate about my own team, but of course it's ok for me to give this reply...and I appreciate you do always make the effort to be very nice to me personally, even when in any kind of disagreement!

    It's just Cruyff and Maldini with maximum votes I think at the minute! When we get to 10 votes (we're at 7 after yours Puck I think) I'll have a proper count up and see where things stand!
     
    PuckVanHeel repped this.
  23. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    When I suggest Maradona for peak re: Messi above, I mean peak on a given day, or in a given 'purple patch', rather than peak seasons or peak spell of a few years, just to clarify (the terminology can get confusing sometimes and people could end up arguing about things they don't disagree about even potentially lol!).

    My perception might be that Maradona's peak level might be less disrupted by level of opposition (relative to own team - not that that should be a problem for an all-time XI theoretically I guess....although any All-Time 'B' side it could be compared to would also be pretty great!), or tight marking etc too I think.

    Di Stefano and Pele as a partnership might seem feasible in another system too, but I felt yes that as a 'lone striker' (with good support, but as the main central forward) Van Basten was the number 1 choice. It's cool in a way that I verge on rating him higher and/or including him in these things more than you though Puck I guess, when he'd be among your favourites and the most treasured legends of the Netherlands!
     
    PuckVanHeel repped this.
  24. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #24 PuckVanHeel, Oct 16, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2019

    OK, thanks for the reply. Yes I'm aware of his dynamism, combination play and dribbling skill, but that can also co-exist with being a focused screener and tackler from deep. Hard to say this without video material, how disciplined he is without ball.

    Check this informative video (correctly saying he was strong in the air; as more contemporary equivalents Rijkaard is mentioned), with also some parts on what might be myth and what real:




    If we're going to see the blue-and-white Messi on the field then surely I'd prefer Muller, Puskas, Eusebio, Ronaldo Luis (10 goals against elite teams, one or two assists) or MvB (five goals in competitive games, a handful assists) as my striker! Surely he was great in providing chances for others and yeah I felt the 4/10 of some publications for his Denmark 1992 game was harsh given he created at least five chances for others in the match (not all publications: France Football did rate him high and as best player of his team in the tournament).

    Anyway I'll not clog up the thread with more exposition and comments but will comment again if I change my Andrade pick. :)

    edit: "In Ballon d'Or he also compares well. Yes Baresi was once 2nd but Rijkaard has more podium finishes." + both one time Italian footballer of the year
     
    PDG1978 repped this.
  25. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I am by no means a modernist when it comes to players, but I am very much a modernist when it comes to tactics. For this XI, I will use the modern 433, as it is clearly the dominant formation of the now.

    There are a few key tactical aspects to my team:
    1. Two ball-playing defenders - It is clear now that having two accomplished ball-playing defenders are so important to the modern build-up game.
    2. Focused attack down one flank - Spoiler alert: The player I believe is the GOAT will be playing on one flank, and so I want to get the ball to flow through him as much as possible.
    3. no.8/no.10 hybrids - The modern central midfielders are the modern evolution of the almost-extinct classic no.10s. All the offensive skillset of the classic no.10s, but also the box-to-box proficiency of the no.8s.
    4. Athletic can-do-everything front 3 - The best front three are all highly athletic, with major focus on pace, and they must be all-rounder attackers who can dribble, create chances, and score goals. No space for specialists in this front 3.

    Without further ado, here is my lineup:

    all-time XI.png

    Key Points:
    - Buffon is simply the best GK I've ever seen.
    - Alves picked as he is the best-attacking RB (and maybe even the best-attacking fullback) I've ever seen (quite a praise, imo, as there are a lot of great RBs in history). Even ignoring his real-life partnership with Messi (which I have, for the purpose of this XI) his skillset brings the best out in Messi. Basically, Alves is picked to maximize Messi.
    - Maldini picked to provide defensive balance to Alves ultra-attacking tendencies. Back-4 becomes a back-3.
    - Figueroa, from my understanding, is like the all-time Van Dijk. A complete defender, with his defensive prowess, athleticism, and also ball-playing ability.
    - It was a coin flip for me between Beckenbauer and Baresi. In the end, I opted for Beckenbauer, as I wanted the extra ball-playing ability of the German over the defensive prowess of the Italian. Could go either way though, and I wouldn't lose a moment of sleep over it.
    - The back-3 is Maldini-Beckenbauer-Figueroa, which I think is the perfect balance of two markers/stoppers flanking a libero.
    - Rijkaard picked for his well-roundedness, as he was the full package of physical dominance, world-class defending, and reliable technique. He doesn't have the playmaking capability of someone like a Busquets, but I think that's less needed than the physical presence that he provides.
    - Both Di Stefano and Cruyff were really ahead of their time, and I think are perfect for the central midfielder roles, even if it wasn't their natural positions. When I look at other central midfield candidates like Matthaeus, he lacks the offensive skillset, while players like Didi, lacked the work-rate and athleticism. Di Stefano and Cruyff both possess the necessary attacking and defensive skillsets, work-rate, athleticism, and tactical understanding demanded by the role.
    - To me, Messi is either the GOAT or the 2nd GOAT and so he was the one player I wanted to ensure is playing in his more comfortable role, and also surround him with the best resources. This is why I gave him Alves and placed Cruyff on his side.
    - C.Ronaldo to me, is the greatest wide forward of all time. He doesn't seem to be a popular choice, which I think is due to him not being as highly rated as other options out there (which is fair enough, I guess) but he was an easy name for me to include as I think he fits in perfectly into my team. For the left-wing role, I think Maradona, who is rated more highly, as a playmaker, is wasted as I've decided to direct my attacks through Messi anyway (the 14-15 Messi is who I have in mind). I don't need extra playmaking. I want an athletically dominant complete "final 3rd" player, which is C. Ronaldo. His job is to receive the ball as close to the box as possible, and then cause damage. He can dribble, pass, cross, and of course, score every kind of goal possible.
    - I am fully aware that Pele was not a striker, but his skill set is actually perfect for the no.9 role (which is more like a false 9 anyway) in this tactic. He is, of course, one of the greatest scorers of all time. He was a supreme athlete. His could dribble and create chances as well as anyone, including world-class holdup play. He would be very comfortable with dropping deep or drifting wide to combine play, opening up space for the Messi, Ronaldo, Di Stefano, and Cruyff to attack. He is almost like the perfect hybrid of Suarez/Firmino, which would allow him to both excel in this tactic, and also brings the best out in the players around him.
     
    PDG1978 and PuckVanHeel repped this.

Share This Page