All time top scorers in big five Euro leagues

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by AD78, Aug 26, 2016.

  1. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Interesting. I hadn't realised that. RSSSF says: "only players who (mostly) played at the highest level are considered, so players like Erwin Helmchen (Germany 20s-40s, probably scored 800+ goals but in 'Bezirksligen', never active in national team) or Abe Lenstra (Netherlands .......) are not considered."
     
  2. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    #27 PuckVanHeel, Sep 2, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2016
    Of course there were also in between stronger and weaker cycles.

    I've mentioned before that NL was 2nd in 1973 but because of financial reasons and tv viewership figures UEFA lowered the entry berths and financial compensation from that point on (back immediately to the level of Greece). This started a depreciating cycle and/or downward spiral. The overall economy at the end of 1970s and start of 1980s did not help either.

    (N.B. ever since the year 1970 UEFA gives money to the participating clubs and countries, that is in addition to gate receipts, advertising and tv rights)

    So in the very narrowest sense it is 1969-1978, 1985-1999 (although in 1982 it was 3rd in the coefficients list). Something like that.
     
  3. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Following comments gratefully received, here is a revised list of leading goalscorers by decade of debut.

    Leagues and dates: England 1888- ; Scotland 1890-1914, 1919-39; Argentina 1916- ; Uruguay 1916-95; Hungary 1917-39, 1945-55; Czechoslovakia 1919-59; Austria 1925-39, 1949-59; Italy 1929- (Serie A only); Spain 1929- ; Brazil Carioca regional league 1930-94, Other Brazilian regional leagues 1930-75, Brazil national league 1971- ; USSR 1945-89; Yugoslavia 1947-91; Colombia 1948-53; France 1950- ; (West) Germany 1954- ; Portugal 1960- ; Netherlands 1966-2005; Belgium 1970-99.

    All scorers of 250+ goals in the leagues above:

    1888-89: No qualifiers
    1890s: Bloomer 317
    1900-09: No qualifiers
    1910-19: Buchan 257
    1920s: McGrory 410, Takacs 360, Gallacher 336, Dean 310, McPhail 305, Halliday 303, Hodgson 287, Piola 274, Jack 254, David Wilson 254, MacFadyen 253
    1930s: Erico 295, Labruna 295, Bican 289, Masantonio 259
    1940s: Puskas 487, Di Stefano 377, Szusza 295, Dienst 289, Kocsis 287, Deak 275, Zarra 259, Lofthouse 255
    1950s: Pele 504, Seeler 404, Greaves 366, Skoblar 255
    1960s: Bianchi 385, G Muller 365, Onnis 363, Eusebio 317, Geels 313, Fischer 268, Morena 264, Nene 262, Cruyff 261, Yazalde 252
    1970s: Roberto Dinamite 470, Zico 371, Fernando Gomes 330, Vandenbergh 290, Maradona 259, Lacombe 254
    1980s: Romario 298, Shearer 283, Bebeto 264
    1990s: Ibrahimovic 289, Raul 256
    2000-16: C Ronaldo 347, Messi 314
     
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  4. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Now a list of the 22 scorers of 250+ goals in the traditional Top 6 worldwide leagues only: Argentina, Brazil, England, Germany, Italy and Spain. Same dates as previous post, except that Brazilian regional leagues do not count after the establishment of the national league in 1971.

    Pele 475
    Seeler 404
    Greaves 366
    G Muller 365
    C Ronaldo 344
    Bloomer 317
    Messi 314
    Dean 310
    Erico 295
    Labruna 292
    Hodgson 287
    Di Stefano 286
    Shearer 283
    Piola 274
    Fischer 268
    Zarra 259
    Buchan 257
    Masantonio 256
    Raul 256
    Lofthouse 255
    Romario 255
    Jack 254
     
  5. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Here is a list by El Grafico. I'm not saying they include the right competitions and such (see for ex. Romario: 458 vs 768; Cruijff at 402 while his official total is really 419) but maybe good to see.

    http://www.elgrafico.com.ar/advf/documentos/lista_goleadores.pdf

    For ex. the top 10 of these decades (when they became active, according to them);

    1950s: Pelé 757, Eusebio 625, Seeler 568, Greaves 483, Law 332, Albert 320, Charlton 312, Van Himst 299, Tichy 295
    1960s: Muller 680, Bianchi 425, Cruyff 402, Bene 400, Milla 386, Chinaglia 375, Onnis, 374, Dalglish 366, Castro 358, Lubanski 358
     
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  6. Puskas 1988

    Puskas 1988 Member

    Dec 9, 2014
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    That's a list of all the official goals ever scored by those players, this is why Romario's tally is so much higher than Peterhrt's.

    That is a list that was published for the first time 4 years ago and that caused a bit of a stir because it wanted to clarify who scored more between Pelé and Romario (among other things) and put Romario first. Since then, El Grafico has updated the list many times with new data about old and current players. I think the last update came out about six months ago.

    As you point out, that list is not perfect and is off of some dozens goals in some cases (I think I even spot a couple of players missing that should be there), but it's a good guide to have a rough idea of who scored the greatest amount of goals worldwide.
     
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  7. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Can you show or copy the latest attempt?
     
  8. Puskas 1988

    Puskas 1988 Member

    Dec 9, 2014
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Here it is.

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Ah I see! It is this link:
    http://martinestevez.blogspot.nl/2016/09/maximos-goleadores-de-la-historia.html

    Some big changes indeed. Just at a quick glance I see for ex. that Fernando Morena got a big upgrade. Still, for some truly legendary players they have still the total wrong (by any measure one would take). But as you say it is an interesting guide.
     
  10. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord

    So the 1980s would look something like (only 300+ goals):

    Romario (Brazil, 1985) 762
    Tulio (Brazil, 1988) 545
    Larsson (Sweden, 1988) 470
    Shearer (England, 1988) 420
    G. Ferguson (N. Ireland, 1987) 417
    Warzycha (Poland, 1983) 398
    Hakan Sukur (Turkey, 1987) 397
    Hermosilo (Mexico, 1983) 394
    Victor Hugo Antelo (Bolivia, 1983) 392
    Toni Polster (Austria, 1982) 364
    Batistuta (Argentina, 1988) 355
    Cardozo (Paraguay, 1988) 354
    Bebeto (Brazil, 1982) 351
    Zamorano (Chile, 1983) 347
    Stoichkov (Bulgaria, 1981) 345
    Kirsten (East Germany, 1983) 339
    Chapuisat (Switzerland, 1986) 332
    Papin (France, 1983) 329
    Klinsmann (West Germany, 1981) 325
    Rivas (Venezuela, 1988), 322
    Roberto Baggio (Italy, 1982) 317
    Van Basten (Netherlands, 1982) 313
    Van Hooijdonk (Netherlands, 1989) 312
    Alberto Acosta (Argentina, 1982) 310
    Bergkamp (Netherlands, 1986) 309
    Hagi (Romania, 1982) 306
    Sonny Anderson (Brazil, 1987) 303


    Apart from the earlier mentioned 'problems' (post #31 by you), obviously it doesn't correct for penalties either. Someone like Dalglish or Platini has a minimum amount of penalty goals while e.g. Baggio or Maradona have literally >30% of their career goals als penalties.

    Lot of players in the 300-400 range for the 1980s (maybe an 'advantage' to start career in the second half of 1980s?). Provides also an idea where MvB should, could or would've been without injuries and premature retirement.
     
  11. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    El Grafico says it's main official goal sources are IFFHS and RSSSF. They seem to have used IFFHS only for their league goal column and this only includes goals in the top divisions. A comparison between RSSSF and El Grafico reveals some significant differences. RSSSF totals are generally higher, sometimes but not always due to a greater willingness to include lower league divisions. El Grafico also admits to difficulty tracking down data for some domestic cups.

    The RSSSF list was complied by Vladimir Kolos on 18.1.16 and El Grafico's on 20.3.16, so there is not a significant time lag. Only the 27 players with 500+ goals in one or other list are included below. Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo are the only current players. RSSSF totals first, followed by El Grafico's in brackets. Difference in bold.

    Bican 805+ (761), +44+
    Romario 772 (762), +10
    Pele 767 (757), +10
    Puskas 746+ (709), +37+
    Muller 735 (680), +55
    Deak 576+ (546), +30
    Seeler 575 (568), +7
    Tulio 575 (545), +30
    Friedenreich 557 (466), +91
    Willimowski 554+ (470), +84+
    Eusebio 552 (624), -72
    McGrory 550 (493), +57
    Binder 546 (422), +124+
    Peyroteo 544 (450), +94
    H Sanchez 541+ (496), +45+
    F Walter 539 (362), +177
    C Ronaldo 536 (537), -1
    Takacs 523+ (427), +96+
    Zsengeller 522+ (490), +32+
    Zico 522 (513), +9
    Di Stefano 514 (512), +2
    Krankl 514 (481), +33
    Nordahl 513 (502), +11
    R Dinamite 512 (492), +20
    Greaves 511 (485), +26
    Bene 508+ (400), +108+
    Messi 507 (521), -14

    RSSSF say they have included Binder's goals for Sturm 19 St Polten before 1930 and Bene's in 2nd/3rd Hungarian leagues, which may account in part for the huge differences. Binder's wartime goals may also be a factor, as they will be with Willimowski and others to a lesser extent. The biggest difference (177 goals) is for Fritz Walter, for whom it is best to refer to the recent excellent analysis of @Puskas 1988. There are also large discrepancies for Freidenreich, Peyroteo and Takacs. The only leading scorer given a significant lead by El Grafico is Eusebio. It is not clear why.
     
  12. Puskas 1988

    Puskas 1988 Member

    Dec 9, 2014
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Yes, a list like this would be for statistical purposes only -goals are not weighed and there is no attempt at a distinction between open play goals and penalties (but then most list don't do this either). That's the beauty and the main weakness of a list like this: everything is counted, so you have a sense of the total amount of goals each player scored, but that doesn't necessarily tell you which players are/were the best goalscorers.

    For me they are, in this order: Gerd Müller, Ferenc Puskas and Pelé.
     
  13. Puskas 1988

    Puskas 1988 Member

    Dec 9, 2014
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    I think it's the other way round: that RSSSF page tried but did not manage to include Binder's goals for St Polten and some of Bene's goals in the lower divisions ;)

    Anyway, Kolos's RSSSF page is actally older, I spotted it for the first time some years ago (about five years ago I think), he just updated it this year but apart from Messi and C. Ronaldo not much was changed.

    I think that Kolos's list is (much) more reliable than El Grafico's, and attempts to list all goals for which there is information. He is very good at finding these data. I tried many times to do something similar, but obviously in many cases it's difficult to ascertain exactly how many goals did a player score, especially for pre-1950s footballers. I'll try to post something more specific soon, this is a topic that interests me a lot.
     
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  14. Puskas 1988

    Puskas 1988 Member

    Dec 9, 2014
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    @PuckVanHeel, do you have any info on the goals scored by Dutch legend Abe Lenstra? He is said to have scored more than 500 league goals in the 1940s and 50s, but I really couldn't find more precise information on the Internet. I would love to know how would he place on the worldwide all-time list, because I'm pretty sure he would be top-10 if every official goal was to be counted.
     
  15. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Yes you are right. That makes the difference for these two even greater.

    The difference also increases for Walter, Bican, Deak, Zsengeller, Tulio and Nordahl when their unknown missing goals are taken into account. And Kocsis probably reaches the 500 mark for RSSSF. He only has 410 goals with El Grafico. Sarosi looks a good bet as well (444 with El Grafico).
     
  16. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Update on this re the original title and Big 5 only...

    - Ronaldo,currently in third place, now has 363 goals in total and is 3 behind Muller and 4 behind Greaves who are top.
    - Ibrahimovic is up to 12 with 266 goals folliwng a good start in England.
    - Higuain now has 90 goals in Serie A plus 107 in La Liga, he is on course to be the first player to score 100 goals in Serie A & La Liga.
    - The only other player to score 100 plus in two of the leagues is Ibrahimovic, in Italy and France.
    - Cavani is on 79 Ligue 1 goals and is on course potentially next season if he stays to join Ibrahimovic in scoring 100 plus in france and Italy.
     
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  17. peterhrt

    peterhrt Member

    Oct 21, 2015
    Club:
    Leeds United AFC
    Interesting thanks.
     
  18. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    RANK PLAYER COUNTRY TOTAL
    1 Cristiano Ronaldo POR 369
    2 Jimmy Greaves ENG 366
    3 Gerd Muller GER 365
    4 Lionel Messi ARG 349
    5 Steve Bloomer ENG 317
    6 Dixie Dean ENG 310
    7 Delio Onnis ARG 299
    8 Gordon Hodgson ENG 287
    9 Alan Shearer ENG 283
    10 Silvio Piola ITA 274
    11 Klaus Fischer GER 268
    12 Zlatan Ibrahimovic SWE 268
    13 Charlie Buchan ENG 258
    14 Raul SPA 256
    15 Nat Lofthouse ENG 255
    16 David Jack ENG 255
    17 Bernard Lacombe FRA 255
    18 Telmo Zarra SPA 251
    19 Francesco Totti ITA 250
    20 Joe Bradford ENG 248

    Sticking to orginal topic and Big five leagues only here is top twenty at the end of the season with one game to play in Serie A, big news is Ronaldo passed Greaves and Muller and moved to top and Messi now in 4th likely to be second (or even 1st) by the end of next season. Ibrahmovic is now up to 12 and who knows whether that is where he will finish and go to MLS, stay at United or move elsewhere

    It gets much more interesting further down Higuain is now on 202, Cavani 200, Rooney 198 and Aguero on 196, these are all around 50s to 60s mark. Bit of a drop next to Torres on 183.

    The list I currently use that has about 200 players on has a cut off at 150, players who broke that mark this season are Gomez on 160, Defoe 158, Suarez 154, Dzeko 152 and Lewandowski 151.

    I can post full list if anyone wants to see it.
     
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  19. victorcalello38

    Feb 28, 2017
    Club:
    Montevideo Wanderers FC
    It would be good to add to the Argentine and Brazilian league; Although the latter should abolish the goals made in regional championships.
     
  20. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Dzeko this weekend became the first player to score 50 goals in three different Big five leagues.
     
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  21. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Latest list post 2017-2018 season, big climbs for Cavani, Higuain and Aguero especially up the list. Green is still active in big five league and grey pre WWII.

    Other notables further down are Torres on 188 but retiring, Lewandowski has 180 and rising fast, Suarez 178, Dzeko & Benzema on 169, Aubameyang also passed 150 mark.
     

    Attached Files:

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  22. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    :thumbsup:
     
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  23. msioux75

    msioux75 Member+

    Jan 8, 2006
    Lima, Peru
    An interesting case is Delio Onnis, who was considered as a 3rd/4th option as NT striker in the 1970s
     
  24. AD78

    AD78 Member+

    Jul 17, 2013
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
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