all time france team.

I read many old magazines in which Petit is highly rated in Spain. Some of them placed him as the Best Player in Spain in the Pre-War era (ahead of Zamora, Samitier, Langara, etc.)

 

Yes I see exactly the same thing ...
Often maldini was "overhyped" by media along with good AC Milan, and his 2 times final at WC94 + Euro0. As Full back, Maldini was same as Thuram , but as CB, Thuram was more solid and much less faulty than maldini despite of the fact Maldini was always playing with great teammates ... from Baresi to Bergomi Costacurta to Nesta and worse Materazzi/Iuliano .

Thuram was great as Fullback at Parma and early years of Juve - then became very solid CB for Juve and Barca France later years. Thuram only played with Desailly and Blanc in Franxce jersey

Blanc was a more skillful DF than Nesta could be. He was better in attack and passing range. Nesta was a great CB, very consistent and a very reliable / hardworking type.

 

Thuram may have been more solid than Maldini at centerback, Maldini only played his last three seasons at that position. However at fullback Maldini clearly has the edge over Thuram, better at club level and Maldini's WC94 is higher than any of Thuram's performances. There is also a past it Thuram giving a disastrous performace at Euro08.

 

With all due respect, you still haven't given any serious evidence that Maldini 94 was better than Thuram 98. If your claim was true, stats would show it to some extent, but in fact they show the exact opposite.
And as you said, Thuram had past it in 2008.

 

I already did: Maldini was unpassable at WC94, not even Romario or Bebeto could do it in the final, whereas I remember Benitez and Suker dribbling past Thuram at the least. Also, you have set up a very narrow criteria to put Blanc - Desailly as the "best CB partnership" ever internationally, when I mentioned Passarella - Galvan or Baresi - Ferri you countered that Galvan or Ferri did not have such a long great career. But when I mentioned the Thuram disaster in EC08 (aren't we talking about careers?) then it becomes based on his form at that particular moment. But Galvan and Ferri were great at WCs 78 and 90 respectively. In any event, even with your sliding scale Nesta - Cannavaro and Puyol - Pique are probably a step above the French pair.

What the French defense of WC98 does have is the fullbacks and the centerbacks can arguably be considered top ten performances in WC history at their positions. I think Thuram is likely borderline inside the top 5 with D Santos, Carlos Alberto, Jorginho and Bergomi being the top ones, and Lizarazu can make a claim in the top 10, although many left-backs have given great performances through WC history. As for Blanc - Desailly, for a partnership performance and only assessing the WC performance given (outside of careers) I would possibly include them in the top ten as well, likely towards the lower part of the ranking. I thought Gamarra and Ayala were far more impressive in their matchup at the WC98 round of 16.

 

You continue to make baseless claims...
Maldini won 56.8 % of his duels in 1994 vs 75% (highest number ever for a fullback) for Thuram in 1998.
Maldini won 8 aerial duels and lost 7 vs 11 aerial duels won and 0 lost for Thuram.
Maldini won 69.2 % of his tackles vs 76% for Thuram.
I'm not even talking about offensive areas in which one should have expected Maldini to have the edge but where in fact Thuram was better : goals, number of successful crosses, number of chances created etc.


Now how was Maldini unpassable at WC94 whereas Thuram was not in WC98 ? Hard facts say the opposite.

I didn't say Galvan and Ferri didn't have long carreers compared to Blanc and Desailly. I said they were not the reason why the WC78-90 Argentinian and Italian CB pairs were good. They were good because Passarella and Baresi were there.
And how are achievements + longevity + quality narrow criterias ?

Until now we discussed about players at their prime. You suddenly put Thuram 08 into the equation because you have no other argument left.

And why that ? I've already talked about the Cannavaro - Nesta pair so I won't come back on this point.
Now let's look at the Puyol-Pique pair : a quick look at OPTA stats shows they're dominated in every single defensive area by the French pair except one (number of blocks). Again, by the virtue of what are they above the French pair ?

We don't have stats about D Santos : I won't say anything on him. You make baseless claims about the other names you mentioned, as usual.
Question : was Lizarazu's WC98 performance inferior to Maldini's WC94 one ? Bias apart : probably not. Forget one moment the "Maldini was unpassable" stuff and answer the same question with Krol, Vogts and Amoros.

Read again what I wrote about the Pique-Puyol pair : Desailly-Blanc dominated the WC more than any other CB pair in terms of defensive achievements. There's enough evidence of it. I'm not saying they were head and shoulders above the rest in terms of quality, I'm saying they did better and achieved more than all the others, not only in one WC but also for a 6 years period (1994-2000).

WC98 1/8 final is only one game. You can't make a fair ranking based on one game. Again, look at the whole picture instead of focusing on one moment.

 

In that case the OPTA stats are wrong, I watched every single match of Italy at WC94 two times (some of them live also) specifically looking to see if anyone dribbled past Maldini and only saw two instances: Houghton for Ireland but Maldini recovered, tracked back and took the ball from him, and after incessant attacking, a half-clearance by Maldini that Cafu took and went past him but could not cross it properly at the end. Benitez alone in the WC98 game against Paraguay got past Thuram more than two times. But ultimately, the reason Maldini 94 is greater than Thuram 98 is because Maldini anchored the Italian defense until Baggio had his flashes of genius, it was essential to Italy's success. The same is simply not true of Thuram for France, him giving a great performance was not live or die for the frogs. Maldini delivered between the sword and the wall, Thuram had no such constraints. The same applies to Lizarazu (or Krol, Vogts and Amoros).

I misunderstood your point about Galvan and Ferri, but it seems you look at centerbacks play in a vacuum, of course they benefitted from having a partner named Passarella or Baresi, but likewise Desailly - Blanc had the benefit of having Thuram and Lizarazu at their flanks, and in front a posessive midfield with Zidane, Petit, Djorkaeff, Pires. To be fair, Baresi - Ferri had Bergomi and Maldini flanking them, less so of an advantage for Passarella - Galvan with solid players though not all-timers in Olguin and Tarantini.

 

OPTA can make minor mistakes but I doubt they ever change the whole picture sincerely. I trust OPTA -or Castrol rankings also, which rated Thuram 98 higher than Maldini 94 as well- more than you by the way... All due respect, you're the one who wrote in one of your previous post that Blanc was smoked by Edmundo in the WC98 final

Thuram's two goals vs Croatia maybe ?
Anyway, I've rewatched parts of all the games played by Italy in that WC : as good as Maldini was, he was not the only one to play well on the field. He was remarkably safe, reliable and occasionally influential in attack. He did everything a great fullback should do, but a few others did the same in the history of the game.

Desailly and Blanc benefitted from having great teammates but ultimately % of successful tackles or of successful duels occur in one on one situations : they rely on how good you are, individually.
Additionnaly, France was a very defensive-minded team, not an attacking team based on possession like Spain 2010 : the CB pair was well-protected but also had a lot of work. Their high numbers of tackles, recoveries, clearances etc are some good evidences of that. I don't think they had it easier than other great CB pairs. They just did better.

 

It's not just me, Maldini won World Player of the Year in South America in 1994, Thuram wasn't even mentioned in 1998, LOL. Furthermore, I did not say Edmundo smoked Blanc as in a one on one, Edmundo made a play to set up Ronaldo alone against Barthez (a pass that neither Blanc nor Desailly could intercept), but Barthez owned Roanldo in that play. Same with Cardozo, he was put through by Acuna on a play that bypassed both centerbacks, but Cardozo took an extremely deficient shot in Barthez' direction.

Your description of Maldini in WC94 is even more apt for Thuram or Lizarazu, and doesn't the explanation that France was defensive-minded mean that Desailly and Blanc had plenty of help in the defensive tasks.

Yes, there are a few CB partnerships at the WC that clearly rank ahead of Desailly - Blanc including the one you mention.

 

Maldini won that award (strangely) for MILAN were Scudetto 94, UCL 94 and Italy WC94 finalist.
(in Ballon Dor: Maldini was #3 and #5 in WPOY)

Now, Thuram did great at WC98, but his club Parma were #6 in SerieA that year ... hardly recognized by UEFA for that (yet he was #5 and #9 in both Ballon dor and WPOY, NOT BAD at all)

 

Maldini won it for both the CL final and the WC final, and it just shows how much stronger his play was than Thuram's for the year, including the WC.

 

Do you realize Blanc was not on the field in the WC final ???

 

Forgot that and I had Lebouef starting in the WC final confused it with EC00 . However, overall the point stands, the French defense while very solid benefited massively from a midfield of Deschamps, Petit, Djorkaeff, Pires and Zidane, which could both hold position and be solid defensively.

 

Blanc was also in the French starting XI during EC00.

Firstly, France 98 was not the only team to benefit from a good defensive midfield... You put too much weight in it. I don't think for example that the 2010 Spanish midfield was worse than the 98 French one.

Secondly, the French CB pair dominated in areas that require individual defensive skills, in one-on-one situations : tackles, duels, aerial game, clearances, recoveries etc... They did more -and better- than others. Simple as that.

 

That's what I listed out in FAVOR to Maldini wining them as a TEAM (not like Maldini scored some winning goals for the team in those cups)
In other hand At least Thuram was key in DF (like Maldini was for his team) he also scored decisive goals for his team at WC98

I did not say Thuram 98 better or worse than Maldini 94, but the difference should be so minimal in either case.
I just said it's EASIER for a player to be recognized in the awards list if their team WON trophies - Like Maldiniwas #3 ballon dor 94 while Thuram was #7 in 98. BOTTOM LINE they were both in TOP10 contenders as best DF in that year

 

I don't see their performance, overall, as being dominant. Strong yes, but not quite at the level of dominant nor immemorable.

 

You should have realized France 98 won by the back 4 + MF - the very first WC winner allowed 2goals/7games.
France 98 were allowed goals by (Laudrup pk) and Suker (topscorer 1goal) and Ronaldo (half fit 0goal)

Which then was repeated by Italy 06 (similar charactersistics) and Spain 10.However in both Wc06 and 2010 events, there were lacking of "great strikers" against them in both scenarios.

 

Why are you mentioning Ronaldo, he couldn't score against France... in either WC, LOL. Spain at WC10 faced a Germany coming from scoring 8 goals against Argentina and England featuring Ozil, Muller and Klose. Italy at WC06 didn't face too many great strikers but in the final they met France with Zidane and Henry.

 

Where does Hugo Lloris rank in the French goalkeeper all-time list potentially? Could he eventually develop enough to take the first-team spot by general consensus?

 

I also wondered babaorum how you saw Jocelyn Angloma (I remember him from quite early in the 90's I think) - he was brought up on another thread because he got a number of ESM team of the month nominations. Right back is a good position for France though - perhaps only Brazil have been better off down the years?

 

Based on GK skills he's probably up there with the very best, and at the age of 26 he already has nearly as many caps as Lama and Bats. I think he will continue to improve as GK usually peak late. I don't know if it will be enough to take the first-team spot instead of Barthez because achievements also matter a lot and Barthez had plenty of them with NT, as well as being a great GK. It will be hard for Lloris to do the same.

To sum up :
Does he has the potential ? Yes
Will it be enough to take the first-team spot ? Probably not (it's also a matter of luck : for example Georges Carnus was probably on par with Barthez in terms of skills but he was unfortunate enough to play in the darkest age of French NT. To some extent the same happened to Bernard Lama : he started to decline when France became dominant. Before that in the mid 90's he was he no way inferior to 98-00 Barthez).

 

Yes I rank Angloma very high. He's another unlucky player who peaked right before France started to dominate in the late 90's. He started to play as a midfielder with Rennes in the 80's and he was compared back then to... Tigana. When he came to Marseille Bernard Tapie expected him to be the new Rijkaard. He quickly took the RB spot instead of Amoros.
Thuram and Amoros would be the two obvious picks for the RB spot but behind them it's open to discussion between Battiston, Janvion, J Djorkaeff, Angloma and Sagnol.

 

Thanks for that comment too. Yes, I can see a little of Tigana's graceful movement in Angloma from what I remember. I think he was an energetic and ambitious right-back from what I do remember. I suppose, though he rarely did it, Bossis was a very capable option at right back too.

 

Yes, he sometimes played at that position, like in the WC82 semi-final vs Germany during which he was, in my opinion, the best French player on the field. He could play basically everywhere on the backline.