Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by Perú FC, Jan 11, 2013.
Yeah not doubting didi was a good player for his day, even if he struggled to do keep ups ..
Maybe you should do more research. Those teams are legendary to you: I can guarantee no one in Brazil has ever heard of any of those Argentinian teams you mention. GUARANTEED.
Vasco da Gama had the "Expresso da Vitoria" in the 40's and competed with Sao Paulo for best team in the country (they formed the basis of the NT that went to WC'50).
1950's had Botafogo and Flamengo - which pretty much formed the Brazil NT that won the WC in 1958 (Garrincha, Didi, Nilton Santos, Dida all came from those squads..).
1960's saw Pele's Santos, Palmeiras "Academia de Futebol" and Cruzeiro being dominant.
1970's had SEVERAL legendary squads: Falcao's Internacional, Palmeiras, Fluminense's "Máquina Tricolor", Reinaldo's Atletico (late 70's - early 80's)..
80's had Zico's Flamengo, Atletico...
90's had Sao Paulo (World champions), Parmalat's Palmeiras...
What makes you think that the Argentinian teams were more legendary than these Brazilian teams I mention is beyond me. It's even more absurd that the guys who were winning WC's for Brazil were all coming from these squads - where were the Argentinians that formed such "legendary" squads that you mention and yet they won nothing with the NT team? Where were these guys?
Oh yeah, maybe they were just "legendary" for Argentinian standards - which are obviously lower than Brazil's.
Do you want me to say again that Brazilian teams did not care for winning Libertadores or do you have a problem reading?
WHAT? Where are you getting this kind of bull sh*t from?? Have you ever even been in Brazil? Flamengo more identified with "jogo bonito"?? What exactly makes Flamengo more identified with that NATIONAL trait than any other Brazilian team??
Never in my life have I met a flamenguista who told me Flamengo invented the "jogo bonito" or anything similar to that... like I said, it's a NATIONAL trait.
So your assumption is completely random.
By the way, there are clubs that won more national titles than Flamengo.
BS. There are plenty of clubs that accept to participate in championships, but don't necessarily focus on them. I can give you a current example: right now, Palmeiras is participating in the Campeonato Brasileiro, but is focusing on winning the Copa do Brasil.
Participating does not automatically mean it is your main goal.
My cutoff of 1992 is not arbitrary, because it's common knowledge in Brazil that, after Sao Paulo won the Libertadores title that year (and became world champions afterwards) the repercussion was big and the Libertadores became more desirable for Brazilian clubs.
My pick of 1992 would only be arbitrary if I picked it randomly.
Beating Venezuelan and Bolivian teams to win a title was NOT considered more important than winning a national championship during the golden age of Brazilian football. Period.
That's fine - everyone knows this team is the worst in Brazilian history and does not reflect Brazilian football culture - and even this defeat will not erase the fact that Argentina is in the shadow of Brazil when it comes to football history - no matter how much you might hate it. And you'll never be able to change that
And that's how you prove it? Showing me personal rankings?
And I thought you said the video I showed you was no proof of nothing. Funny...
Like I said, I don't mind placing Redondo higher than Zito regarding who was the better player. I never questioned that - although I think it's arguable.
What is not arguable is that Zito holds are more legendary status than Redondo - which does not mean Zito was a better player than Redondo. I'm talking about status, not sheer quality (you seem to be confusing both).
And, without a doubt, the homage given to Zito in that Chilean stadium (which you dismissed so easily) is DEFINITELY a more significant proof of his legendary status than these personal lists you're giving me.
It's still an "if", still an hypothesis/condition, still a "maybe"... does not change the fact that Brazil had far better and more legendary national squads than Argentina throughout history.
Not a single Argentinian squad has ever been regarded as one of the greatest ever.
Brazil has at least 4: 1970 (the greatest of all), 1958-62, 1982 (which did not win and still managed to be more remembered and internationally acclaimed than any Argentinian squad - even the ones who won... which is, by the way, laughable) and 2002.
Read again. I never said Zico was better than Redodndo. I said he holds a greater legendary status - don't mix things up.
Besides, you think your personal rankins are better proof? You quickly dismissed the video I showed to give me personal rankings?
As for the minute of silence for Redondo - pretty sure it will never happen. First, because he is not unquestionably the greatest DM to ever play for Real Madrid. Second, because there are far greater players in the history of Real Madrid to get this homage before Redondo.
Agree: different positions. So why did you come up with the irrational comparison?
It doesn't matter if those teams have never been heard of in Brazil, they are recognized worldwide and it's verifiable just by looking at discussions in both this site and Xtratime. They are discussed and used as historical reference points in a way that no Brazilian club other than the Santos of Pele and Flamengo of Zico are. Sorry, but whether Brazilians know them or not in a historical perspective is almost irrelevant.
I suggest you read on some of the historical discussions by posters such as @Dearman @Tom Stevens @Perú FC @La-Máquina etc.
The World Cup was not held in the 40s and Argentina did not send teams to WCs 34, 38, 50 and 54. And Argentina did win WC78 during the time of Independiente's dominance and Boca Juniors' resurgence. The WC86 winners had three players from River Plate's Libertadores 86 winning team, the WC90 runner-ups had four players from the Newell's team that reached two Libertadores finals during those times.
Also, this argument is completely invalid by looking at Brazil itself. They won three WCs from 58 to 70, with Santos providing the core of the team, plus Botafogo and Flamengo a couple of players each. But I already recognized Santos of the 60s as a historical side. Then Brazil wins WC94 which has a few of the Sao Paolo players that you mention though most of them as reserves with little playing time - Leonardo is the only regular of the club who was undisputed starter until his ban. The WC02 winners are almost all based in Europe and certainly not build around the core of a Brazilian club. Thus the same exact logic that you are trying to use to diminish Argentine clubs applies to all those Brazilian clubs you mentioned above with the exception of Santos from the 60s.
And I already provided at least some significant evidence that it's a cop-out. Then there is also the strong possibility that the 90s was simply an anomaly that will present itself every 60 years or so, especially considering that in this new century Argentine clubs have already re-captured the lead in the Libertadores.
I guess if this is true it just means Brazil has no clubs of global identity and reach then.
Pele himself has mentioned in various interviews how seriously Santos took the competition, both during the years they won it and when they didn't. And the Libertadores did not just consist of Bolivian and Venezuelan clubs, given the historical rivalry it's just common sense that Cruzeiro would want to beat Boca Jrs or Internacional likewise to Nacional when winning means the whole team is done with and they would be the champions. That they didn't is simply because they were bettered by their opponents.
Even if we look at a cutoff of 1992, other than Sao Paolo no Brazilian club has dominated the competition. During the 90s there was a string of forgettable Brazilian sides winning it once only to never be heard from again, then Boca Juniors awoke and started slapping around any Brazilian side that dared challenge them. By the way, their win over Santos in the 03 final was the most lopsided (6 points +4) in the competition's history until Boca did it again to another Brazilian club, Gremio (6 points +5). That's what a historical giant can achieve against lesser clubs.
Well, who knows...in football things change and are changing now. Spain has surpassed Brazil as producing the greatest talent in depth for the past ten years, something unthinkable during WC06. In any event, I wouldn't say one of the top four footballing nations lives "in the shadow" of anyone else, I wouldn't even say the Netherlands live in the shadow of Germany.
While international success is paramount, it is not the only facet of a worldwide game such as football. For example, since the post-war period, Argentina has given the "player of his generation" three times, more than any other nation.
Your video is a moment of silence tribute, that proves absolutely nothing beyond that the player is appreciated. And those rankings are by posters who have studied the game extensively, while no single ranking is the last word they do show the general agreement on how Redondo is regarded historically - right near the top and higher than Zito.
This is just a semantic argument that add no value, reminds me exactly of @Guigs style: confound with words and trivialities so that the consensus is questioned. Ultimately, just focusing in these two players, if Brazil A plays Argentina A, Redondo would outclass Zito as he is the greater player, which you finally admit.
I agree that Brazilian NT squads have reached a higher peak than Argentinians, particularly during the halcyon days of 58 through 70. But you are wrong that not a single Argentinian side has been regarded as one of the best, there are the WC78 winners and the WC66 side that went out to the eventual winners. In any event, in a historical assembly one picks players from across eras, so that is not such a hindrance. For example, Maradona in WC86 is a higher peak than any other player in international history, including Brazilians. Kempes is also top five for example (search for posts by @Bada Bing and @lessthanjake discussing it at length).
A minute of silence is not proof of anything, you are just trying to clad your argument with any validity in any manner you can find. As for Redondo's status with Real Madrid, of course he will get his due which is hopefully long in the future. He is their greatest defensive mid ever and the catalyst in bringing them back CL titles, that in itself is a much greater achievement than a mere ritual where most in attendance where likely fiddling around with their smart phones. I must say though, remembering how @Guigs used to argue about the greatness of the current Brazilian players and seeing how your argument depends on a tribute, either Brazilians have a really funny way of framing football arguments or you are actually copying his mode: semantics, trivialities, exaggeration - anything to stymie the opponent even when the popular view is largely on their side.
Actually, I was following up on the point brought by @Giles about the skill level of modern players against those of decades past.
Is there a case to be made for Thiago Silva? Brazil, even in their team A, obviously has a clear weakness in their defensive spine. There is no modern Brazilian defender who was ever highly regarded in Europe (Aldair/Luis Pereira were in Roma/At. Mdarid, but they were never considered the best in the world.) Thiago Silva has been considered one of the best defenders in the world, even by Europeans, for the past 5 years. Even Baresi said Thiago Silva is the player who has come closest to him.
Thiago Silva combines pace & power, European defending, and Brazilian technique into one complete package. However, his lack of trophies doesn't look good at all.
In my opinion a lack of trophies shouldnt count against a player. A player should be judged on their ability.
Agree, but I don't see Thiago Silva as such a great center back.
Neither do i ..
Can sound weird...or not...but imo he is the greatest Brazilian CB of all time. And amongst the greatest ever from all the continents. But behind the ones who won something, ex-aequo with a relatively small group of others. That said even if he had the titles I would have some hesitations putting him in the very first group. But I think I should not. But anyway he has "no" titles. And that catastrophe recently too (into wich Scolari has much responsabilities imo: T.Silva is a leader but maybe it's better not giving him the harmband, and maybe it would have been better to play a 5-3-2/ 3-5-2/ 3-4-1-2 too, talking June 2014 of course).
I heard that best decade of Botafogo is 60's. isn't it?
btw, could u tell me 70's Fluminense, 80's Atletico? how about 60's Bahia, 70's Cruzeiro and 80's Gremio?
It's okay to not rate Thiago Silva, but that must mean you don't rate modern defenders do you? I see that opinion quite often. Interesting one I think.
Brazil is best time in the world.
Can you prove that? Pretty subjective point, based a lot on personal opinion, huge geographic variations and so on... I'm not saying it matters that Brazilians know these teams or not, I mean it in a way that NONE of them are as known as you're suggesting to the general public worldwide - be the Brazilian ones, be the Argentinian ones.
Football specialists will know the greatest clubs from both countries equally.
Besides, none of that proves Argentina is greater than Brazil when it comes to football (which, by the way, is a much more widely acceptable assertion WORLDWIDE than the point you're trying to make).
Your point is as valid as saying Spain is the greatest football nation in history because Real Madrid is the greatest club in history.
No, it's not. Especially when you consider that the quality shift in Brazilian clubs has always been bigger than anywhere else in the world. Flamengo were amazing in the late 50's, not so much in the 60's. Internacional was great in the 70's, not too good in the 80's.. and so on. Great teams didn't last too long in Brazil, because of that shift.
Too many clubs - as I said, Brazil has 12 big clubs, Argentina doesn't have more than 3. Any minimally logical person will understand that it's much more diluted in Brazil than in Argentina. You don't have to be too smart to see that.
Anomally? A whole decade an anomally? And I'm the one making excuses...
Neither does Argentina. Not worldwide, at least.
You can think whatever you want, mate. If you seriously think Cruzeiro would rather beat Boca than Atletico (especially back in those days), then you seriously lack knowledge of how Brazilians look(ed) at football.
Boca dominated the competition in the 90's?? When exactly did that happen again?
Argentinian football will always be seen WORLDWIDE as inferior to Brazilian football, no matter how much you may dislike that. The worldwide vision of a link between Football and Brazil is much stronger than the vision the world has of Football and Argentina. Period.
Agree. Yet Brazil holds the top position at the all-time FIFA international ranking (by a long shot) and is the nation with the biggest number of FIFA world player of the year titles (8 - by 5 different players - not to mention 3 second places and 3 third places).
Which is exactly what I said: saying Redondo is so much greater than Zito that no one should even argue with it (which is basically what you've been saying) is completely mislead.
Agree. But not to the extent you pointed out, completely putting Zito aside in the discussion.
The consensus that Brazil is the strongest football nation in history is pretty ... well.. consensus...and you keep "confounding with words and trivialities". So what is your point?
We're not discussing players, we're discussing teams. Football is a team sport. And I'm the one trying to change focus...
Argentina WC'78 has NEVER been regarded as one of the greatest international sides ever. Even Brazil'82 (which did not win) is a more celebrated side than Argentina'78.
As for Argentina'86 - it's always been regarded as a one-man squad.
Argentina'66? Pretty unknown team - definitely in no condition of being mentioned as one of the greatest ever. Brazil has a clear advantage of, at least, 4 or 5 squads over Argentina, in terms of historical international sides. Pretty much a consensus here as well.
The popular view is that Brazil is the all-time top football nation and the one that has produced the biggest amount of talent in history.
Yet you say I'm the one contradicting the largely accepted view.
So let's see if you agree with the consensus: do you agree with this view I mention above? If you do, then what are you even on about??
Late 50's and early-mid 60's as well. Botafogo were stronger in late 50's and early 60's, before guys like Nilton Santos, Didi, Quarentinha, Garrincha retired (also had other names like Manga, Rildo, Pampolini, Zagallo, Paulinho Valentim, Amarildo...).
By 1964, many of these guys were starting to be replaced, but only Jairzinho and Gerson were close to or at the same level as the guys that formed Botafogo earlier. But still remained a strong side throughout the 60's (although most wouldn't put them in the same level as Santos, Palmeiras and Cruzeiro in the second half of the 60's).
60's top clubs in Brazil were Pele's Santos, Ademir da Guia's Palmeiras (known as the Academia), Cruzeiro (Tostao, Dirceu Lopes, Piazza...) and Botafogo.
Although, obviously, all the other 8 big clubs in Brazil were always competitive.
Sorry, forgot the rest.
Well, in mid-70's Fluminense formed a really strong side that became knowns as "the Machine". They brought Rivellino from Corinthians, Carlos Alberto Torres from Santos, Paulo Cezar "Caju" Lima from Olympique de Marseille and some other good names as well..
This was the basis of the squad: Renato (Félix); Carlos Alberto Pintinho (Marco Antonio), Carlos Alberto Torres, Edinho & Rubens Galaxe; Rodrigues Neto, Cléber (Paulo César), Dirceu & Rivellino; Gil & Doval.
In those 2 years (75-76), the only team in Brazil that could really match Fluminense was Internacional:
Manga; Cláudio, Figueroa, Hermínio (Marinho Perez) & Vacaría; Caçapava, Falcão & Paulo César Carpegiani (Batista); Valdomiro (Jair), Flávio (Dario) & Lula (Escurinho).
Atletico were really powerful in late 70's-early 80's (1978-1983). Some of the greatest players in the history of the club come from this period, including Reinaldo (their all-time greatest player):
Basis of that team: João Leite; Orlando (Alves / Nelinho), Osmar (Vantuir), Luisinho & Jorge Valença; Geraldo (Chicão / Heleno), Toninho Cerezo & Paulo Isidoro (Palhinha); Pedrinho (Renato Queiróz), Reinaldo & Dario (Éder).
The only team that could really match Atletico in the early 80's was Zico's Flamengo:
Raul; Leandro, Marinho (Figueiredo), Mozer & Júnior; Andrade, Adílio & Zico; Tita, Nunes & Lico.
For a long time Bahia used to be considered one of the top greatest clubs in Brazil (including in the 60's). There used to be 13 big clubs (G-13), not 12. But Bahia have left this group a long time ago.
Cruzeiro's 'golden era' was really in the second half of 60's, when the two greatest players in it's history were performing together (Tostao and Dirceu Lopes).
In 1975-76, they also had a legendary squad with Raúl; Nelinho, Moraes, Darci Menezes & Vanderlei; Piazza, Zé Carlos, Eduardo (Roberto Batata) & Jairzinho; Palhinha & Joãozinho
They even won the Libertadores that year, although Fluminense and Internacional were regarded as slightly better sides than Cruzeiro in those 2 years (which, again shows how much Brazilians preferred to win national titles than international titles in those days, @Pipiolo - and it also shows how much great sides in Brazil didn't last more than 2 or 3 years).
To be clear, I do agree that Brazil A should be ranked as #1 in an all-time team, however, I disagree with your assertion that Brazil B is closer to Argentina A than Argentina A is to Brazil A and I have made the comparisons by position to prove how close Argentina A is to Brazil A.
In any event, you are incorrect and just making an argument for argument's sake when you say that Boca Juniors and River Plate lack any global importance, you just would rather make that argument to bring down Argentine club football to the level Brazil's - lacking a tradition that goes beyond its national borders. To me, this line of yours pretty much sums up your stubbornness:
Boca dominated the competition in the 90's?? When exactly did that happen again?
No, I said Boca Juniors began dominating the competition at the turn of the century, especially against Brazilian clubs whom they thumped in three different finals. Overall, winners of four editions during the 00s, no other side during that decade won it even more than once. In fact, even looking from 92 on, no Brazilian club has dominated the competition like Boca Jrs did during the 00s, so even in that (conveniently) narrow time frame, an Argentine club comes on top.
Incorrect. I said Brazil B is closer to Argentina A than Argentina B is to Brazil B. And I never said Argentina A are far behind razil A - in fact I was the one who mentioned in this thread that the difference between the two A-teams is marginal and it starts to increase in Brazil's favour as we go on to compare the B-squads, C-squads, D-squads and so on... due to the greater amount of surplus talent Brazil produced (although I also believe the identification Brazilian supporters have with every member of the Brazilian A-squad is bigger than Argentinians have with Argentina A-squad - both Messi and Di Stefano lived all their lives in Spain and the latter played for Spain and Colombia).
I didn't say they don't have any global importance, I questioned you comparing them to the likes of A.C.Milan and Real Madrid, in terms of worldwide recognition - which is clearly a "stubborn" overstatement.
Boca Juniors and River Plate may be perceived as superior clubs in the local sphere (Latin America) and mainly because of the 2 reasons I pointed out to you: historical disinterest from the part of Brazilian teams in terms of international competitions (favoured national titles) and talent deconcentration on the Brazilian side (many more relevant clubs inside the country than Argentina - 12 vs 2/3) - how else would you reasonably explain Brazil having more talented players than Argentina and not winning as many titles? You just need to use logic.
Oh, are you talking about when the referees robbed Palmeiras and Corinthians in Buenos Aires against Boca? Got it... it tends to happen a lot when they play at La Bombonera (another historical trait, by the way).
Still, none of that changes this: Brazil has more Libertadores titles than Argentina since Brazilians started caring for it and, ultimately, Brazil is historically superior to Argentina in terms of football talent (which is what this whole discussion is all about anyway).
Some legendary Brazilian squads, if you’re interested:
INTERNACIONAL (1940’s): Ivo Winck; Alfeu & Nena; Assis, Ávila & Abigail; Tesourinha, Russinho, Vilalba, Rui & Carlitos – this team was so offensive that it became known as the “Rolo Compressor” (“Steamroller”) of the South.
VASCO DA GAMA (1945-1952): Barbosa; Wilson (Augusto) & Rafagnelli, Ely, Danilo Alvim (Alfredo II) & Jorge; Djalma, Maneca (Dimas / Ipojucan), Ademir Marques de Menezes (Jair da Rosa Pinto), Friaça (Nestor / Heleno de Freitas) & Lelé (Ismael / Chico) – this squad is known as the “Expresso da Vitória” (“the Victory Express”), most powerful Brazilian team of the late 40’s and early 50’s – and basis for the Brazil National Team that reached the World Cup final in 1950.
SÃO PAULO (1946-1949): Gijo (Mário), Piolim (Savério) & Renganeschi (Mauro Ramos de Oliveira); Rui, Bauer & Noronha - Sastre, Ponce de León, Leônidas da Silva, Remo & Teixeirinha – after Vasco, the main club to give away players that participated in the World Cup in 1950.
CORINTHIANS (1950-1954): Gylmar (Cabeção / Bino); Homero (Murilo) & Olavo (Belfare / Alan); Idário, Goiano (Touguinha) & Roberto Belangero (Julião); Cláudio, Luizinho, Baltazar, Rafael (Nelsinho / Carbone) & Simão (Mário) – some of the greatest players to ever play for Corinthians (Gylmar, Olavo, Roberto Belangero, Cláudio, Luizinho and Baltazar) are found in this squad.
FLAMENGO(1953-1961): Garcia (Ari / Chamorro); Pavão (Joubert) & Jadir (Bolero); Servílio, Dequinha & Jordan; Zagallo (Carlinhos), Joel, Rubens (Benítez / Gérson / Henrique), Índio (Moacir / Dida) & Evaristo de Macedo (Germano / Babá / Paulinho). Basis for the Brazil National Team that won the World Cup in 1958, together with Botafogo.
BOTAFOGO (1957-1964): Manga (Adalberto); Nilton Santos (Rildo), Tomé, Zé Maria & Paulistinha; Airton & Pampolini; Didi, Zagallo (Paulo Valentim), Quarentinha (Amarildo) & Garrincha – some of the greatest players in the history of Brazilian football right here.
PALMEIRAS (1959-1969): Valdir de Moraes (Picasso / Leão); Djalma Santos, Djalma Dias (Baldocchi), Valdemar Carabina (Minuca) & Ferrari (Geraldo Scotto); Dudu (Zequinha) & Ademir da Guia; Julinho Botelho (Gildo / Germano), Servílio (Chinesinho / César Maluco), Tupãzinho (Vavá / Ademar Pantera) & Rinaldo (Romeiro / Ênio Andrade) – this team became known as the “Academia de Futebol” (“the Academy of Football” - because journalists said they taught how to play football). Palmeiras was the most dominant Brazilian club of the 1960’s, together with Santos.
SANTOS (1960-1969): Gylmar; Lima (Carlos Alberto Torres), Mauro Ramos de Oliveira, Calvet & Dalmo; Zito & Dorval; Mengálvio (Clodoaldo), Coutinho (Toninho Guerreiro), Pelé & Pepe (Edu) – the single most legendary squad in the history of Brazilian football and one of the greatest in world football.
CRUZEIRO (1965-1969): Raul; Pedro Paulo, Willian (Fontana), Procópio & Neco; Piazza (Zé Carlos) & Dirceu Lopes; Natal, Tostão, Evaldo & Hilton Oliveira – The State of Minas Gerais really started to become relevant, at national level, when this squad absolutely destroyed Pele’s Santos 6 x 2 at the Brazilian Championship final in 1966 and won the title.
I’ll mention a few more from the 70’s, 80’s and 90’s later.
The 1970’s had at least 5 or 6 truly memorable sides:
PALMEIRAS (1972-1974): Leão; Eurico, Luís Pereira, Alfredo & Zeca; Dudu, Ademir da Guia & Leivinha (Ronaldo); Edu Bala, César Maluco & Nei – the “Academy”, the only club that was able to stop Santos throughout the 60’s, remained strong in the 70’s.
INTERNACIONAL (1975-1976): Manga; Cláudio, Figueroa, Hermínio (Marinho Perez) & Vacaría; Caçapava, Falcão & Paulo César Carpegiani (Batista); Valdomiro (Jair), Flávio (Dario “Dadá Maravilha”) & Lula (Escurinho) – this is likely the greatest squad in Brazil from the 70’s.
FLUMINENSE (1975-1976): Renato (Félix); Carlos Alberto Pintinho (Marco Antonio), Carlos Alberto Torres, Edinho & Rubens Galaxe; Rodrigues Neto, Cléber (Paulo César), Dirceu & Rivellino; Gil & Doval – they became known as “Máquina” (“the Machine”).
CRUZEIRO (1975-1976): Raúl; Nelinho, Moraes, Darci Menezes & Vanderlei; Piazza, Zé Carlos, Eduardo (Roberto Batata) & Jairzinho; Palhinha & Joãozinho – after Tostão and Dirceu Lopes left, Cruzeiro still managed to form another great squad.
GUARANI (1978): Neneca; Mauro, Gomes, Édson & Miranda; Zé Carlos, Zenon (Manguinha) & Renato; Capitão (Adriano / Gersinho), Careca & Bozó (Macedo) – the only medium sized club to ever become Brazilian Champion.
ATLÉTICO (1978-1983): João Leite; Orlando (Alves / Nelinho), Osmar (Vantuir), Luisinho & Jorge Valença; Geraldo (Chicão / Heleno), Toninho Cerezo & Paulo Isidoro (Palhinha); Pedrinho (Renato Queiróz), Reinaldo & Dario “Dadá Maravilha” (Éder).
Perhaps honourable mentions should go to Atlético (70-71), São Paulo (71), Flamengo (78-79), Internacional (79-80) and maybe even Santos (1978).
Great! It is hard for me to find information about old brazil teams, so many of these players are unfamiliar but amusing. (especially Baltazar. one of most prolific Paulista goalscorer before Pele, right?)
However why Flamengo was basis for 58NT? It seems Zagallo was only regular player.
Perhaps, but then there is Maradona whom I feel represents Argentina to a greater degree than any Brazilian player does to Brazil A.
No it's not and I have already mentioned other posters' who are not Argentinians ranking of both of the Argentine giants near the top of global teams. AC Milan in particular may be headed for a long dry spell, it won't take away from what the club has accomplished, but it could well decrease their global relevance a notch.
Or maybe the Brazilian clubs have used this excuse after continually losing to Argentine clubs in international competition? You have shown no proof that your argument is truthful, on the other hand I gave evidence of Santos' apparent "disinterest" only after they had lost in the competition two years running in the 60s. And perhaps Argentina only has three "relevant" clubs in its league, still Estudiantes has more international titles than any Brazilian club, including its leading one whichever that is, as it seems there is no real great historical side in Brazil from parsing your arguments. Thus a small Argentine side has won twice as many Libertadores (or more) than any Brazilian side other than Santos and Sao Paolo. Forget Estudiantes, look at Argentinos Jrs, a team that is really a development academy for the bigger clubs in the league, has as many Libertadores as Brazilian clubs with massive fan bases such as Flamengo and Corinthians.
Classic sore loser argument, this just paints you as more than of an "amargo" than you had already shown. You got one thing right though, Brazilian clubs lose a lot at La Bombonera.
According to your time frame on what counts and what doesn't. But even if we consider this, Brazil has only one memorable side in what is going to be 25 years next year since the 1992 edition, the Sao Paolo of Tele Santana. Argentina by comparison, has Bianchi's Boca Juniors and Diaz's River Plate. Even only looking at this period, Brazilian clubs still fall behind in peak to Argentine clubs.
I guess it will be hard for you to find it if you're not from Brazil, since most of the information is in Portuguese.
We've had long discussions in some threads regarding old Brazil sides and players, I guess it was in the Ademir da Guia and WC Non-Rosters threads and a few others...
You will find that many of these players are not very well-known internationally, but have legendary status inside Brazil.
Yeah, Baltazar was known as the "Golden Little Head", due to his extraordinary ability to score headers and is one of the most memorable players in the history of Corinthians (he played for them for over a decade). In fact, that early 50's side is arguably the most celebrated Corinthians has ever had.
As for Zagallo, we all know he was the third option in his position to go to the World Cup in 1958 (he was also not meant to be a starter in 1962). Zagallo is probably the only player from those 2 Brazil national teams who is not world class - he was a useful, consistent player - who worked hard and was tactically important, but never a 'craque' like the other guys.
What happens is that the best left wing Brazil had in 1958 was Canhoteiro. Canhoteiro is an absolute legend for Sao Paulo F.C. and is regularly regarded as the greatest left wing in the history of Brazilian football (he was known as "the Garrincha of the left"). But Canhoteiro was very bohemian and wasn't very disciplined and was also afraid of flying - so he was left out by manager Feola.
The second best option Brazil had for that position in 1958 was Pepe, who is the second highest goal-scorer in the history of Santos (behind Pele), with 405 goals. Pepe injured his right foot in a friendly against Italy just before the World Cup and had to be put on the bench the whole tournament: and that's how Zagallo entered the first team and became the luckiest man in Brazilian football.
Flamengo had 4 players representing Brazil in 1958: Dida, Joel, Moacir and Zagallo (I guess Flamengo had a bigger share at WC'54).
Maybe. Pele is loved in Brazil, but some people also dislike him (Ayrton Senna can definitely give Pele a run for his money as to whom is the greatest Brazilian sportsman of all time).
But I also feel Maradona's image in Argentina has been damaged after he became manager for the National Team. So I guess he is not as unanimous as he used to be inside Argentina anymore.
Stop basing yourself solely on the opinion of other posters. Nobody in Europe knows who Boca Juniors are - simple as that. I'm talking about the general public here. There's no way any South American club has the image and perception that the biggest European clubs have - whether that's fair or unfair is a different story.
Even if Milan goes into a long dry spell, Boca Junior can win 10 Libertadores in a row and they won't be perceived in Europe as a worldwide relevant club.
I don't need to show proof of something that is common sense in Brazil. I already showed you that after 1992, when Brazilian clubs started to give the competition more importance, they won more titles than Argentinian clubs - there is no better proof than that.
And it's obvious that when you make a national competition a priority, you will work harder to win it than when you focus in a different competition. Argentinian clubs have always considered the Libertadores their main goal and did all they could to win it (even resorting to violence and buying referees - also a very known fact in S. America - as you can attest in the article I showed you) - Brazilian clubs didn't concentrate on winning it: in Brazil, the Libertadores was perceived as a secondary competition, for Latin Spanish-speakers and Brazilians felt they were not part of it.
No matter how much you dislike to hear this - that's how it was.
You still haven't given me a logical explanation as to how is it that Brazil has more football talent than Argentina and yet didn't win as many Libertadores titles. Still waiting...
Yes, because there's hardly any football talent coming out of Brazil, right?
Which shows how much importance Brazilian clubs gave to the Libertadores. Thanks for proving my point.
Clearly, you didn't read the article.
Argentinians buying out referees have always been common practice - they even won a World Cup that way (also another well known episode).
A Brazilian club going to La Bombonera in the 60's and 70's = asking to be robbed by the Latin Spanish-speaking referees. Quite a lot of evidence of that as well (but I won't go too much into it).
So what? Why are you even trying to make this a discussion about clubs? At the end of the day, Brazil is superior to Argentina when it comes to football talent.
That's what this discussion is all about. Boca Junior can win 20 Libertadores titles, it will still not mean Argentina has better football than Brazil; just like Real Madrid winning 11 Champion Leagues does not make Spain the dominant football nation historically.
Your argument is pretty pointless, at the end of the day.
And yet all the wondrous Boca Juniors and River Plate sides (with such "amazing" players) were not able to produce not even a single legendary international squad, whilst the "average" Brazilian clubs (and, apparently, the "average" players that seem to have come out of them) formed countless legendary national teams.
@Raute , @Lockeroom
ATLÉTICO (1978-1983): João Leite; Orlando (Alves / Nelinho), Osmar (Vantuir), Luisinho & Jorge Valença; Geraldo (Chicão / Heleno), Toninho Cerezo & Paulo Isidoro (Palhinha); Pedrinho (Renato Queiróz), Reinaldo & Dario “Dadá Maravilha” (Éder) – the only team that could really go face to face with Flamengo in the first 3 years of the 1980's.
FLAMENGO (1980-1983): Raul; Leandro, Marinho (Figueiredo), Mozer & Júnior; Andrade, Adílio & Zico; Tita, Nunes & Lico – without any doubt, the greatest and most legendary team of the 1980's in Brazil.
GRÊMIO (1981-1983): Mazarópi (Leão); Paulo Roberto, Baidek (Newmar), De León & Casemiro (Paulo César Magalhães); China, Osvaldo (Paulo Isidoro) & Tita (Vilson Taddei / Renato Sá / Mário Sérgio); Renato Gaúcho (Odair), Tarciso & Caio (Baltazar / Paulo César) – probably the greatest side in Grêmio's history (considering Grêmio really lacks truly legendary squads compared to other Brazilian clubs).
CORINTHIANS (1982-1984): Leão (Solito); Alfinete, Mauro, Juninho (Daniel González) & Wladimir; Biro-Biro, Paulinho (Eduardo), Sócrates & Zenon; Ataliba & Casagrande.
FLUMINENSE (1983-1985): Paulo Vítor; Aldo (Getúlio), Duílio, Ricardo Gomes & Branco; Jandir, Delei (Leomir) & Romerito; Assis, Washington & Tato (Paulinho) – not as great as their '75-76 team, but still memorable (especially for putting an end to Flamengo's dominance).
SÃO PAULO (1985-1987): Gilmar; Zé Teodoro (Fonseca), Oscar (Wágner Basílio / Adílson), Darío Pereyra & Nelsinho; Márcio Araújo (Falcão / Bernardo), Silas & Pita; Müller, Careca (Lê) & Sidney.
VASCO DA GAMA (1987-1989): Acácio; Paulo Roberto (Luís Carlos Winck), Donato (Marco Aurélio), Fernando (Quiñonez) & Mazinho; Dunga (Zé do Carmo), Geovani (Boiadeiro) & Tita (Henrique / Willian); Mauricinho (Vivinho / Bebeto), Roberto Dinamite (Bismarck) & Romário (Sorato).
I think the second half of the 1980's is arguably the worst period in Brazilian football history (not counting the actual moment Brazil is going through, which is obviously the worst of all).
As a footballer, he is easily the biggest icon for Argentina by far.
The opinion of other European and Asian posters is exactly what counts for a global reputation, of course you want to minimize it because it goes against your preferred version of reality. As usual, your argument is simply negative - "nobody knows", "we didn't care", etc. but you fail to posit any arguments in favor of Brazilian clubs. To make a football analogy, your argument is not coming out and play but simply to kick the ball far and out of your zone and expect it makes you equal.
Your argument however hinges on one decade, the 1990s, when Brazilian clubs won six Libertadores although other than Sao Paolo all were forgettable teams that have not stood the test of time. Before this can be ascertained as proof of anything, it needs to be controlled for simple random luck, maybe after six decades it was time for Brazilian clubs to dominate one of those decades, and as I previously mentioned, it's funny how it coincides exactly with the Bosman ruling that went on to cripple Argentinian and Uruguayan sides in its aftermath - and it should be clear why this would affect Argentine football clubs more. Once Argentine sides adjusted by bringing in top foreign players to replace their exports, they dominated the 00s and are on par in this decade with the momentum going their way.
Also, I feel that I have to make address your "we didn't care" claim not from an Argentina vs Brazil perspective but more from a philosophical existential view. In football (as in life), you can give the world the middle finger and a big "FU", just don't expect much love and admiration in return. If Brazilian clubs competed without caring and hence lost (according to you), the world is not going to look at them with any greater appreciation despite this caveat/excuse. The great clubs of the world, including Real Madrid, Barcelona, AC Milan, Juventus, Manchester United, Liverpool, Ajax, Bayern Munich, became what they are because they in fact deeply cared about all competitions, both their national leagues and the continental tournaments simultaneously. That's what real winners do and to miss out on greatness due to indifference is ultimately losing. The irony is that in the most global of games, you want to equate provincialism with greatness. Not winning because of not playing absolutely does not mean won had we played.
Individual talent may not relate directly with greatness of clubs, there could be many reasons why but a couple of quick ones are simply being overshadowed by a better opponent or the distribution of such talent.
See my comment above.
Spanish speaking nations usually root for the Brazil NT and Brazilian clubs over Argentinian ones, this is pretty well observed if you have ever traveled across the continent. Your "evidence" of course is from a minor rag without much of a reputation, hese accusations have not been taken seriously at large. If anything, Grondona was not fond of Boca Juniors and would have no reason to want to help them. Also, to speak about referee manipulation you can begin by taking a look at Flamengo's Libertadores campaign in 81.
I'd like to hear which referees River Plate bought this year for the footballing lesson they gave to the minnow Cruzeiro in their own stadium. I'm sure some Brazilian poster will supply the evidence for that too in forty years' time.
Brazil indeed has the edge, they also have 150 million more people, but the talent cannot be all that much superior when the respective all-time teams are so closely matched up. And club football is of course a huge dimension of a nation's football tradition, in historical terms I will prefer to watch the Germany NT to the Spain NT and I will prefer to watch La Liga to the Bundesliga.