All-time best starting USA 11

Discussion in 'USA Women: News and Analysis' started by thegamesthatrate, Oct 8, 2015.

  1. thegamesthatrate

    Jan 9, 2007
    In the aftermath of the 2015 WWC, I am curious to see what people think.

    There is one rule to qualify - a player must have played in two World Cups, or two Olympics and one World Cup, to qualify.

    So, Brian and Johnston are ineligible (though they may be there someday).

    Put together any formation you want and justify why it could win.

    GK - Solo (possibly Scurry, for big saves in big games, but Solo overall plays the position better and kicks further)

    Defenders:

    Fawcett Overbeck Sauerbrunn Whitehill

    Rapinoe Akers Lloyd Lilly

    Wambach Hamm
     
  2. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Member

    Jul 18, 2011
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Morgan plays better than Hamm in important matches.
     
  3. kernel_thai

    kernel_thai Member+

    Oct 24, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    .................Morgan.....Wambach
    Lilly.......................................................Hamm
    ...................Akers
    ............................................Boxx

    Fawcett - Overbeck - Sauerbrunn - Chastain
    ....................................Solo
     
  4. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    I think that conclusion can only be reached by ignoring a great deal that Hamm brought to the team besides scoring.
     
  5. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Member

    Jul 18, 2011
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Morgan also brought a lot to the team besides scoring.
     
  6. thegamesthatrate

    Jan 9, 2007
    We have three points of disagreement.

    First of all, how do you leave Lloyd off the all-time starting 11? I'm not a big Lloyd fan, but results speak. If it were only the two Olympics with game-winning goals, maybe one could conclude otherwise, but after this past WWC how do you leave Lloyd off?

    Second, to put Morgan in, you left Rapinoe off. But, overall in big games, it seems to me that Rapinoe has played at a high level with big goals and assists more often than Morgan has (even recalling the big Morgan goals and assist against France and Japan in WWC '11 and the Canada semifinal in the 2012 Olympics [a game in which Rapinoe scored two goals]). But, reasonable minds can disagree there.

    Last, I am astonished that you take Chastain over Whitehill. Now, let me say that I like Brandi the human being (she sent me a very nice note one time and her public statements consistently resonate with class), and of course she did score a penalty kick that won a game that inspired me to write a book.

    That being said, when it comes to three key attributes for defenders (actually defending one v one, speed in getting back on D and the ability to control, handle and cleanly pass the ball accurately forward), much as I like Brandi the human being, in a key game, I strongly prefer that Whitehill be there on defense.
     
  7. thegamesthatrate

    Jan 9, 2007
    Both of you have points. Hamm is often praised by her teammates (without envy, considering that Hamm earned as much as most of them put together with her endorsements) as the emotional glue that held the team together. Morgan is a very complete soccer player as well.

    Even though Hamm was not a scorer in clutch games (2 goals in 19 games at quarterfinals and later in WWC and Olympic play, the total that Morgan registered in her first two appearances in similar late stage games), a resume of futility that led Mike Lewis in 1999 to write that "Mia" stood for "Missing In Action", there is an overall body of work to note. It's a tough choice between her and Morgan, but one key fact is that Hamm was almost always healthy. Granted, it is not the case that 90% of soccer (unlike 90% of life) is just showing up, but it's hard to perform when you don't play.
     
  8. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    Nothing like the same defensive value; and Hamm provided a dozen plus years of flawless corner and free kicks.

    Had she been an exact contemporary of Wambach's, Abby would have an extra 50 goals on set pieces alone, IMO...
     
  9. taosjohn

    taosjohn Member+

    Dec 23, 2004
    taos,nm
    Whitehill was really a centerback; efforts to use her on the wing were pretty unconvincing. If you want to move Chastain out of there, Rampone would be the person to replace her.

    But me, I would move Fawcett inside and (sadly) move Cap'n Carla out and put Rampone on the side she more often played, and keep Brandi in; she was worth more in offense than she gave up defensively...
     
  10. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So basically we're taking this thread and updating the discussion through 2015?

    I'm going with:

    Solo (with the 2015 WWC, Solo moves in front of Scurry, imo)

    Fawcett-Overbeck-Sauerbrunn-Rampone (also considered Markgraf and Chastain on the backline)

    Akers-Lloyd-Lilly (had to go with 3 in MF to get 3 on the frontline since USSF has had such great forwards)

    Hamm-Wambach-Jennings (It was pretty much a toss-up for me on whether to include Jennings or Milbrett, but I can't ignore the other US player who's received a Golden Ball.)
     
    CoachJon repped this.
  11. kernel_thai

    kernel_thai Member+

    Oct 24, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    #11 kernel_thai, Oct 9, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2015
    Almost put Jennings instead of Morgan...even checked to make sure she played in 95 WC...but in the end wanted more of a balance between the different eras.
     
  12. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Let's compare careers, ok?

    Hamm:
    --played on the USWNT for 17 years with 275 caps (is third on the team with caps behind Lilly and Rampone)
    --scored 158 goals in her career; assisted on 144 (she still holds the NT record for number of assists while she held the world record for goals for over 10 years, and no one is near Hamm's assist record)
    --was named USSF Female Athlete of the Year 5 times
    --was named FIFA World Player of the Year 2 times
    --2x WWC champion and 2x Olympic gold medalist
    --played key roles on the team both as a forward and in midfield
    --a leadership force on the team

    Morgan:
    --has played on the USWNT for 5 years with not yet 100 caps (94?...not sure of most up-to-date number)
    --was a substitute in the 2011 WWC (and during 2010 and 2011 as a whole); a key sub, but still a sub
    --scored over 20 goals and had over 20 assists in 2012, joining Hamm as the only two Americans to do so
    --been named USSF Female Athlete of the Year once
    --1x WWC champion and 1x Olympic gold medalist

    See the difference?

    Honestly, I can't even believe the argument needs to be made...that anyone would take Hamm out to put in Morgan? Morgan is a great player and I wouldn't argue with anyone (like kernel_thai) who chose Morgan over Jennings or Milbrett or someone else, but Morgan over Hamm...really?
     
  13. kernel_thai

    kernel_thai Member+

    Oct 24, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    #13 kernel_thai, Oct 9, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2015
    What I tried to do was actually field a team. I have to admit the hardest position to fill was the second outside back. I didnt want to just take a bunch of CBs...if I had I would have taken Markgraf over Chastain. So for me it actually came down to Krieger, Chastain and Rampone. I picked Chastain because she was both a competent defender once she was moved back but also because she scored about 20 of her goals after becoming a defender. Fawcett was also a two way player as well as a lock down back.

    Tho Rapinoe did have a great WC, mostly because she played within herself, I dont think she is on the level of Morgan. With Rapinoe u never quite know what ur going to get and getting bad Rapinoe hurts the team as much as getting good Rapinoe helps.

    As to Carli Lloyd, this came down to a couple things. First, I only picked three midfielders. Second I picked a true DM and Boxx is IMO the best DM the US has produced. After that it was no decision for me. Again, IMO Lilly and Akers r two of the best midfielders to play the game regardless of country so Lloyd got left out.
     
  14. kernel_thai

    kernel_thai Member+

    Oct 24, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    To be honest if I had to pick two forwards I might have gone Morgan and Hamm. Not to take anything away from Wambach but despite accruing some very impressive statistics her teams didnt really accomplish very much. Now that may not have been her fault but the truth is she has zero WCs or Olympic victories without either Morgan or Hamm being there.
     
  15. Smallchief

    Smallchief Member+

    Oct 27, 2012
    Club:
    --other--
    I'm not ready to put Morgan on the all-time best 11. She had one unbelievably good year (2012) and otherwise seems to have been hurt most of the time. She might make my all time team if she has a great Olympics in 2016. Until then my forwards are (1) Hamm and (2) Wambach .

    Akers and Lloyd are locks in the midfield best 11. Rapinoe may get there with a good Olympics in 2016.

    Sauerbrunn might also make my best 11 if she has a good Olympics.

    Solo is my goalie.
     
  16. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I think the criteria we used are different. When looking at 2-3 different players, I was weighing some of the old USSF criteria (contribution to legacy, longevity, etc.) as well as talent. (I will admit to putting Sauerbrunn in though more for talent; if based on the other criteria, I think I'd rearrange the backline and put in Markgraf or Chastain.)

    Nevertheless, I think I'd still take a Wambach in her prime over Morgan. Morgan's career has been a couple of great years plus at least half of her career as either a sub or injured. I also don't fault Wambach for the team's poor performance in 2007 when Wambach was at her peak. (She won Silver Ball that WWC.)
     
  17. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Member

    Jul 18, 2011
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #17 Slowpokeking, Oct 9, 2015
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2015
    Hamm

    Only 1 goal in the semi, 1 goal in the 3rd place match since quarter final in 4 WWC and 3 Olympic, I remember 1 assist in 2004 final?

    Morgan

    1 goal in the semi and 1 goal in the final of 2011 WWC, 1 goal in quarter final and created pk in the semifinal of 2015, the winning goal in the semi and assist in the final of 2012.

    Morgan played less than 1/2 of the major tournament and already beat Hamm 3-1(3rd place match shouldn't count) in important matches. Obviously Morgan is the Miss Big Time.
     
    Namdynamo repped this.
  18. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Member

    Jul 18, 2011
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I won't say it, Morgan played the lone forward in 2015 to keep pressure of the defense. In the 2012 final most of the team was very tired, it was all Morgan+Lloyd to keep the pressure on Japan.
     
  19. kernel_thai

    kernel_thai Member+

    Oct 24, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Well certainly ur opinion is valid, it's just not mine. I dont really care what players do in friendlies or what their numbers look like. What I do care about is performance in big situations. While the book is hardly closed on Morgan she has had three majors and been a key player in all of them. I could say the same thing about Lloyd but she only seems to be able to play one spot on the field and Akers is standing in that spot.
     
  20. lil_one

    lil_one Member+

    Nov 26, 2013
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    On this we agree. There's no telling what she'll have achieved by the end of her career.
     
  21. kernel_thai

    kernel_thai Member+

    Oct 24, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    At any rate, Id be very happy to go to war with the team I picked.
     
  22. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Member

    Jul 18, 2011
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    To me, Rapinoe deserves a spot in the best squad as well. She made so many important assists in 2011 and 2015 WWC, plus important goals in 2012 Olympics. The only bad match she had was the 2012 final due to spent all of her energy in the semi.
     
  23. Slowpokeking

    Slowpokeking Member

    Jul 18, 2011
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Who is the best coach then?
     
  24. cpthomas

    cpthomas BigSoccer Supporter

    Portland Thorns
    United States
    Jan 10, 2008
    Portland, Oregon
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How many are undefeated in the WWC and who are they?:whistling::)
     
  25. kernel_thai

    kernel_thai Member+

    Oct 24, 2012
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Correct...it's Anson Dorrance... I knew u were a secret Tar Heels fan!! :)

    Dorrance built this program and the foundation is so strong it survives the occasional misstep.
     

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