All-Time 4-2-3-1 Challenge

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by PDG1978, Sep 6, 2017.

  1. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    If you saw Francis's winning goal in the 1979 EC Final, Robertson is the one who crossed it to him (but you may know Francis from Sampdoria I guess!).

    If you ever watch the 1991 FA Cup Final, Walker scores the winning goal.....for Tottenham lol (but he also played for Sampdoria and starred in the 1990 World Cup for England).
     
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  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    The formation is ok?

    I'm thinking lots of short passes (traditional Forest style anyway) and Francis coming deep to get the ball a la Sindelar or somebody!
     
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  3. La-Máquina

    La-Máquina BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 5, 2013
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    #78 La-Máquina, Oct 16, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2017
    I couldn't help myself... an all-Italian late 80's/early 90's 3-3-1-3...

    1 Walter Zenga

    2 Giuseppe Bergomi, 5 Franco Baresi, 3 Paolo Maldini

    4 Fernando De Napoli, 8 Carlo Ancelotti, 6 Luigi De Agostini

    10 Giuseppe Giannini

    7 Roberto Donadoni, 9 Gianluca Vialli, 11 Roberto Baggio​



    Bench: 12 Stefano Tacconi (GK), 13 Pietro Vierchowod, 14 Ciro Ferrara, 15 Giancarlo Marocchi, 16 Roberto Mancini


    I think only a German XI could beat this team.
     
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  4. Hidegkuti78

    Hidegkuti78 Member

    Sep 2, 2015
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    Very nice!

    Only doubt is about De Napoli there...
    I'd go with a proper wide guy. Like Angelo Colombo for example.
     
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  5. La-Máquina

    La-Máquina BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 5, 2013
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Both can play central or wide, but I think De Napoli has the ideal attributes to play that right midfield role. Mid to late 90's, I'd bring in Angelo Di Livio :thumbsup:
     
  6. Hidegkuti78

    Hidegkuti78 Member

    Sep 2, 2015
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    Yeah let's settle on Di Livio!
    Excellent pick.
    And excellent team
     
  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I'll not start tallying any selections past team 4 obviously, but I had a think myself about how I might carry on through teams 5 to 8 and came up with this, using the same 4 hybrid designs as before:

    Team 5 - 1: Shilton, 2: Thuram, 3: Breitner, 4: Matthaus, 5: Nesta, 6: Charles, 7: Matthews, 8: Schiaffino, 9: Rummenigge, 10: Puskas, 11: Finney
    (Hybrid with: 4-1-3-2 - Shilton; Amoros, Nesta, Charles, Breitner; Matthaus; Mathews, Schiaffino, Finney; Rummenigge, Puskas)

    Team 6 - 1: Zoff, 2: Amoros, 3: Facchetti, 4: Tigana, 5: Desailly, 6: Passarella, 7: Savicevic, 8: Xavi, 9: Henry, 10: Dalglish, 11: Iniesta
    (Hybrid with: 4-3-2-1 Christmas Tree - Zoff; Amoros, Desailly, Passarella, Facchetti; Xavi, Tigana, Iniesta; Savicevic, Dalglish; Henry)

    Team 7 - 1: Zamora, 2: Suurbier, 3: Cabrini, 4: Edwards, 5: Hierro, 6: Hansen, 7: Meazza, 8: Falcao, 9: Weah, 10: Rivera, 11: Baggio
    (Hybrid with: modern 4-3-3 - Zamora; Suurbier, Hierro, Hansen, Cabrini; Falcao, Edwards, Rivera; Meazza, Weah, Baggio)

    Team 8 - 1: Dasaev, 2: Vogts, 3: Bossis, 4: Bozsik, 5: Koeman, 6: Vierchowod, 7: Jairzinho, 8: Liedholm, 9: Shevchenko, 10: Gullit, 11: Ronaldinho
    (Hybrid with: 4-1-4-1 - Dasaev; Vogts, Koeman, Vierchowod, Bossis; Bozsik; Jairzinho, Gullit, Liedholm, Ronaldinho; Shevchenko)

    So that meant these became my top 4 picks omitted:

    Dennis Bergkamp (was close to including him as number 10 in some team, and maybe the formation used as hybrid for team 4 even costs him despite that he could integrate very well in the midfield area - perhaps I considered Sandro Mazzola could've been an option in that role also and could have been tempted with Nandor Hidegkuti re-forming the Hungarian connection with Bozsik too!)

    Jurgen Klinsmann (if using Rummenigge starting wider as a supporting player predominantly, maybe I even consider him for team 5)

    Gheorghe Hagi (just like Kaka, I think he's a player I rate very highly in prime mode, but the basic formation really made it unlikely I'd be picking those given I'd think myself for them it really is the number 10 role they'd be considered for; wheras on the other hand maybe I'm surprised I don't include Fernando Redondo eventually in any selection within a 4-2-3-1 as I could've slotted him in somewhere as either number 4 or number 8 I suppose)

    Romario (if Gerd Muller didn't exist, he might seem to fit well and therefore be prime candidate as number 9 in team 4 even, re-connecting with Laudrup, in a similar type of role Muller would play)
     
  8. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Possibly if combining two different incarnations of Bergkamp, and if picking the final team to be a hybrid with a Christmas Tree again, I could/might've put him in instead of Jairzinho (as number 10, with Gullit as number 7, but if needed...in a theoretical match, Gullit moving back to a box to box midfield role, and Bergkamp as a right wing forward type player).

    Bergkamp nearly went in team 6 instead of Dalglish though anyway, so he's closest to getting in a selection without doing for myself I think.
     
  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Actually, with one of the players I guess I might've been expected to pick by those that are familiar with my post history being Robert Pires (I think if we/I picked more 'typical' 4-2-3-1s only then he would have been in one of my top 8 teams surely):

    Looking randomly at France vs Brazil from the Confederations Cup of 2001 (albeit a very second string Brazil with a midfield with 9 previous caps), as well as enhancing my faith in 'ball players' in the midfield, (that you see in my selections on this thread) viewing Pires, playing alongside (or ahead of if we call it 4-1-3-2) Vieira in central midfield, almost tempts me to put him in team 6 instead of Iniesta given I'd pick go that way purely as the left side option. If Vieira/Pires works (although it wasn't tested 'properly' I suppose! - I remember Wenger often saying Pires would do well in the centre for France, but always using him wide understandably I suppose for Arsenal) then maybe Xavi/Tigana/Pires as a ball playing triumvirate also does, but probably Xaviesta is too convincing to really make me consider a change anyway! Whether Pires would be better at releasing balls to Henry could be a consideration though I suppose, as that line-up would have to find a good mix between Tiki Taka and playing the ball to Henry when it was on (I think with Savicevic and Dalglish it can already do it though, so I'm ok sticking to the line-up and leaving out both Bergkamp and Pires in the end).
     
  10. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Actually, to be fair/accurate, not 4-1-3-2 I think - I should've paid better attention and/or continued to watch longer to establish Djorkaeff's actual role, but it is not right up alongside Anelka in general anyway.

    Anyway, right now I should be and am watching Forest and they just scored! So I won't go and re-check the Karembeu/Djorkaeff/Vieira/Pires/Wiltord positioning just now! Pires is certainly in the middle though, and Wiltord left side, which is the main jist of what I observed and considered before my post!
     
  11. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Jun 11, 2012
    Similar to Pires, perhaps better/more complete, would be the unmentioned Nedved.

    I really like the exercise in this thread. I tried to make copies of my first team but after the second team the replacements just dont seem as strong as other potential options.

    What do you guys reckon to be a stronger combo?;
    King Kenny with Gerd Müller or Platini with Romario?
     
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  12. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    The latter, easily.

    I don't think Nedved was similar to Pires though. Nedved was a much more dynamic and athletic player, for a start. Pires was a cerebral and technical player. Nedved was all-action but never had Pires' consistency in the final third.
     
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  13. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Jun 11, 2012
    Ok, based on Poet's feedback I made a 3rd and 4th. Im curious if everyone finds the order correct.
    4:

    Casillas, Maldini, Passarella, Moore, Thuram, Redondo, Roberto Falcao, Laudrup, Kop, Müller, Garrincha

    This team has the Dalglish-Müller combo upfront. Both players were incredibly crafty around the box. The speed has to come from the flanks, with Laudrup in his worldclass position on the left.


    Team 3:


    Keylor, Facchetti, Baresi, Chumpitaz, Djalma, Kopa, Mauro, Vidal, Platini, Kopa, Puskas, Romario.

    This team has the Platini-Romario combo. Romario doesn't defend much, so hes always ready to receive a throughball. Platini would sometimes get lost with too much space in front of him, so he is best with an eternal target like Romario.
    Because Romario isnt helped much by wingers, I put Kopa on the right to provide more throughballs and short passes. And Puskas vice versa can drift from the left, drawing defenders out of the box with his shot.
     
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  14. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Jun 11, 2012
    Team 2
    Yashin, Panucci, Bale, Humberto Coelho, Sergio Ramos, Desailly, Matthäus, Juninho Pernambucano, Robben, Maradona, Cruijff.


    Team 2 is an exaggerated version of team 1.

    The main synergy is that its “foulproof”. If you foul one of the best dribblers, then you have to face the best direct and indirect setpiece scorers. At the same time, its very hard to score from the setpiece against, since the best headers of the game are abundant.

    The formation should qualify as 4231 but effectively its a zona mista with a left sided wingback (Bale) taking care of the whole flank. Cruijff actually plays striker in this one, a position from his early career, where I think his skillset fits him best.
     
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  15. annoyedbyneedoflogin

    Jun 11, 2012
    To best explain team 1, I will critique the previous 3.

    Team 4
    Casillas, Maldini, Passarella, Moore, Thuram, Redondo, Roberto Falcao, Laudrup, Kop, Müller, Garrincha.


    Team 4’s weakness is its lack of a central outlet. Müller nor Dalglish had the speed to breakout on a throughball. This limits their power on the counter. An opponent should push up their defensive line high to force the sharks out of the water. The space behind the defenders will not be utilized effectively by these 11.

    Team 3
    Keylor, Facchetti, Puskas, Platini, Romario, Baresi, Figueroa, Djalma, Kopa, Mauro, Vidal.


    In hindsight, it seems better to feature Figueroa, an RCB, than Chumpitaz, an LCB, next to Baresi.

    Team 3's weakness is ofcourse its narrow attack. Parking the bus or moving all defenders to the middle should stop Romario from slipping through. The free space on the flanks will not be utilized effectively by these 11.



    Team 2
    Yashin, Panucci, Bale, Humberto Coelho, Sergio Ramos, Desailly, Matthäus, Juninho Pernambucano, Robben, Maradona, Cruijff.


    Tactically, team 2 is the most sound. The main critique on team 2 will be its lack of quality.
    Team 1 incorporates the "foulproof" setup of team 2 but adds more quality overall. Because the backs and striker are both fast and strong aerialists, this team can adjust to any major strategy. Defensively it could park the bus, push up or, with its width and forwards, play pressing or even full pressing. Once ahead, counterattacking is all go.

    Team 1
    1. Schmeichel
    2. R. Carlos
    3. B. Ivanovic
    4. Rijkaard (as according to OP)
    5. Chiellini
    6. John Charles
    7. Messi
    8. Di Stefano
    9. Nordahl
    10. Stojkovic
    11. Pelé
     
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  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    At some point I'll have a look at where everything stands now points wise, in terms of consensus XIs.

    I also had a think about which way I'd have gone myself if trying to fit a more typical 4-2-3-1 than I was doing (with two players who would stay generally deep in the midfield or at least be box to box in one case perhaps, and not putting a Platini or a Hoddle for examples into one of those slots as sort of 'quarter back'; and if going with a libero/outright defender combination for all-time purposes but not two 'ball playing centre backs' together except when considering Baresi and Figueroa could probably fairly be considered to be good enough in the outright defender role; also trying to give players roles they generally or quite often played and excelled in, or something very close or equivalent).....

    Probably I'd end up not actually putting a typical centre-forward into team 1 though, if that wouldn't be a contradiction lol! I might go with Cruyff as false 9, whereby he'd often leave the front line and work from behind 3 players (arguably again I could just stick him at number 10 and have Pele more as an outright striker I suppose):
    1 - Yashin, 2 - Cafu, 3 - Maldini, 4 - Bozsik, 5 - Baresi, 6 - Beckenbauer, 7 - Messi, 8 - Neeskens, 9 - Cruyff, 10 - Pele, 11 - Best

    And just going as far as team 2 for now, I'm thinking possibly this:
    1 - Schmeichel, 2 - C.Alberto, 3 - Krol, 4 - Rijkaard, 5 - Figueroa, 6 - Moore, 7 - Figo, 8 - Ocwirk, 9 - Van Basten, 10 - Maradona, 11 - Ronaldinho
     
  17. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Actually, it is off the top of my head, but I'll carry on up to four teams (obviously I've made my votes though and these don't count as a second selection by my alta ego or something....even if it is my thread!)

    Team 3 I guess might be:
    1 - Banks, 2 - Jorginho, 3 - N.Santos, 4 - Matthaus, 5 - Nesta, 6 - Scirea, 7 - Garrincha, 8 - Falcao, 9 - Ronaldo, 10 - Zico, 11 - M.Laudrup

    And team 4 perhaps:
    1 - Buffon, 2 - D.Santos, 3 - Lizarazu, 4 - Tigana, 5 - Blanc, 6 - Cannavaro, 7 - C.Ronaldo, 8 - Vieira, 9 - Muller, 10 - Di Stefano, 11 - Dzajic
     
  18. tLB Odiseo

    tLB Odiseo Member

    Necaxa, Galatasaray, Real Madrid
    Dec 18, 2011
    México
    Club:
    NEC
    Nat'l Team:
    Mexico
    I would love to see this team ... it would be amazing

    Team 4
    [​IMG]
     
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  19. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Obviously my own votes were cast with my original teams anyway, but now for the 'typical' 4-2-3-1 options I'm wondering if it might be better to put Van Basten in team 1 too, but then I'd be wanting to at least give Cruyff the number 8 (based on what he could do in prime, and did do later, maybe that's just about ok even for this option) and choose between Bozsik and Neeskens, or even other options for the number 4 shirt! I'd be pretty intent on at least keeping both Pele and Cruyff in the XI I think!

    Anyway, like I said I'll come back and update the consensus XIs and points etc, but this bump gives people chance to add more teams if anyone would like to.
     

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