All-Time 4-2-3-1 Challenge

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by PDG1978, Sep 6, 2017.

  1. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    No problem mate - yes, understood. I suppose I was using the 4-2-3-1 as basic outline for this thread (as a template that lots of formations are at least close to - so we are all picking a number 10 of some sort, a striker, two wider forwards/AMs and two 'midfielders' and the choices can be roughly comparable and no 'weird' formations get involved maybe) and it is a bit confusing.

    You're right that it can be interesting to debate and discuss. Maybe sometimes I prefer not to have to mount a defence of a personal choice lol, but that didn't happen here really and if I wanted I could just have repped your choices and not given an explanation or asked about Rivera anyway (I genuinely wondered if you did see him playing deep somewhat differently to Platini so thought I'd ask in case you had some thoughts on it, as the 4-2-3-1 basic design probably actually cost Rivera as far as my choices go!) When I talk of 'hybrids' with other systems rather than a rigid 4-2-3-1 that's easy to miss I think too. Maybe it'd have been easier to stick to just 4-2-3-1 standard formations, with two DM/CMs (perhaps one a deep-lying playmaker such as Alonso) but I hadn't wanted to be restrictive like that to myself or anyone else. The actual system is open to variation really between our teams, but it should just vaguely match a 4-2-3-1 line-up - confusing sorry!!

    I saw you opened a thread indeed and I'll have a look at that - thanks and good contributions and selections on this thread so thanks for that too.
     
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  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    This will be subject to immediate change already when La-Maquina's Team One is revealed, but making a start at keeping track of the voting.....

    Of course, unlike in our individual selections, the consensus doesn't take account of fitting the players together but just shows the most commonly voted players in each slot (4 pts allocated for a slot in a team 1, down to 1 pt for a slot in a team 4).

    Only 6 goalkeepers have been named so far which is the least for any slot (at the other extreme 14 choices for the number 8 shirt - I considered that to be the midfield option that was least the anchor player or combative box to box player, rather than the left CM in each choice; wheras for CB's I did mainly allocate things right to left except if there was an obvious libero in the partnership as with Scirea in La-Maquina's team 2 - they get the number 5 shirt):

    Consensus Team 1 - Yashin (16), Cafu (13), Maldini (15), Neeskens (9), Baresi (12 overall for CB slots; 9 for shirt 5), Moore (12), Messi (16), Matthaus (8 for number 8 which is enough but 11 overall, all for CM slots), Ronaldo (14), Pele (15 for number 10 and 19 overall but no more from La-Maquina to come), Cruyff (16)

    .....to be continued up until team 6 soon. Currently 16 is a maximum score for Messi and Cruyff, but not for Yashin who won't be in La-Maquina's Team 1 for definite as he's already used him.
    The number 4, 5 and 6 shirts are the arguable ones. Rijkaard has the same number of points as Neeskens. Scirea has 10 for shirt 5 but it seemed right to put in Baresi, wheras Beckenbauer has 18 points overall but is on 11 for shirt 6, or 5 and maybe some of his points for shirt 6 could be transferred to shirt 5 anyway - on the other hand if I didn't put him in midfield in my team 1 I'd have put him in defence and others may have done similar even if in La-Maquina's case it'd be team 2 anyway....but ultimately he has enough points if we were just fitting the ones with the highest totals in but as defender he doesn't quite match Moore's tally).
    * Actually so far it is just me and La-Maquina who placed Beckenbauer in midfield, to clarify further!
     
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  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    So showing the current Team 1 consensus effort in 4-2-3-1 form:
    ---------------------------Yashin----------------------

    Cafu-----------Baresi----------Moore---------Maldini

    -----------------Neeskens----Matthaus---------------

    --Messi-----------------Pele-----------------Cruyff--

    ---------------------------Ronaldo---------------------
     
  4. Hidegkuti78

    Hidegkuti78 Member

    Sep 2, 2015
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    Yeah sorry I didn't really give number 4 and 8 depending on tasks but more on being right- or left-footed, and otherwise giving the 4 a more playmaking role.
    Feel free to swap them when considering my picks!
     
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  5. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Actually, correction: it would be more correct to put Rijkaard in I think, as I did have it in mind to prioritise Team 1 selections (even over number of inclusions) and in Peru FC's Team 1 he is indeed alongside Matthuas too:

    Consensus Team 1 - Yashin (16), Cafu (13), Maldini (15), Rijkaard (9), Baresi (12 overall for CB slots; 9 for shirt 5), Moore (12), Messi (16), Matthaus (8 for number 8 which is enough but 11 overall, all for CM slots), Ronaldo (14), Pele (15 for number 10 and 19 overall but no more from La-Maquina to come), Cruyff (16)

    ------------------------Yashin--------------------

    Cafu------------Baresi----Moore-------Maldini

    -----------------Rijkaard----Matthaus---------

    --Messi-------------Pele----------------Cruyff--

    -----------------------Ronaldo--------------
     
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  6. Hidegkuti78

    Hidegkuti78 Member

    Sep 2, 2015
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    Well it's hard to object anything against this team. Awesome!
     
  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Current Consensus Team 2:

    Buffon (11), D.Santos (12), N.Santos (11), Neeskens (9), Scirea (10), Beckenbauer (11 for shirt 6 or at least as CB/libero, 18 overall), Garrincha (11), Xavi (6), Van Basten (9), Maradona (10 for number 10, 13 overall), Ronaldinho (6 for LWF/LAM, 7 overall)

    * Both C.Ronaldo and Best have more points for wide positions than Ronaldinho overall, but one less for left side slot

    -*I know Scirea/Beckenbauer doesn't seem right necessarily but as said I'm just tallying the points and not every selection was libero/CB combination- I guess if they played together they could do it a la Battiston/Bossis or Scirea would be stay at home sweeper and Beckenbauer a Bobby Moore esque wing-half type maybe)
     
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  8. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I suppose what would be interesting, is to consider what would have happened had I specified a typical/traditional 4-4-2 (or similar) instead.

    Would someone like Platini, or Zidane, then be in the frame for most popular number 8 choice even, and would Messi and Cruyff still get placed in the wide roles for example....
     
  9. Hidegkuti78

    Hidegkuti78 Member

    Sep 2, 2015
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    Interesting question.
    As for me, I'd have probably picked a "10" like Platini or Zidane as a CM for one of the teams, even though I don't think my first team's midfield would have changed.
    I'd have probably kept Cruijff in as a wide mid (well if there's one player you can put anywhere from defense up, it's him).
    Not Messi though, no.

    It would have been something like:

    Garrincha, Schiaffino, Bozsik, Cruijff
    Ronaldo, Pelè
     
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  10. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Current consensus teams 3-6 (from left to right):
    1 - Schmeichel (10), Zoff (5), Banks (3), Dasaev (1)
    2 - C.Alberto (9), Thuram (6), Jorginho (2), Lahm (2)
    3 - R.Carlos (7), Krol (5 for LB, 6 overall), Facchetti (5), Brehme (2)
    4 - Vieira (5), Bozsik (4), V.Andrade (3), Redondo (3)
    5 - Nesta (7 for #5, 11 overall), Nasazzi (4 for #5, 5 overall), Cannavaro (3 for #5, 4 overall),Bergomi (3 overall)
    6 - Figueroa (4 for #6, 8 overall), Sarosi (3), Desailly (2), Passarella (1 for #6, 4 overall)
    7 - Figo (5), Moreno (2), Conti (2), Jairzinho (1)
    8 - Schiaffino (4), Falcao (3), Zidane (3), Didi (3)
    9 - G.Muller (5), Puskas (4), Romario (4), Eusebio (3)
    10 - Di Stefano (7 for #10, 10 overall), Platini (5 for #10, 9 overall), Zico (4), M.Laudrup (3 for #10, 5 overall)
    11 - C.Ronaldo (5 for #11, 9 overall), Best (5 for #11, 9 overall), Iniesta (3), Dzajic (3)
     
  11. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Mourinhomaquina.jpg

    He went on to scribble this down, suggesting no deviation from the overall trend (but would that be a surprise in itself?):
    1 - Buffon
    2 - Thuram
    3 - Maldini
    4 - Rijkaard
    5 - Baresi
    6 - Moore
    7 - Messi
    8 - Matthaus
    9 - Van Basten
    10 - Maradona
    11 - Cruyff

    Journalists are currently showing him a quote from La-Maquina himself suggesting Di Stefano will be in the team.
     
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  12. La-Máquina

    La-Máquina BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 5, 2013
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Country:
    Italy
    Here is my Team 1.

    They are called 'Iron Fist'.

    1 - Gianluigi BUFFON
    2 - Lilian THURAM
    3 - Paolo MALDINI
    4 - Frank RIJKAARD
    5 - Alessandro NESTA
    6 - Franco BARESI
    7 - Lionel MESSI
    8 - Lothar MATTHÄUS (C)
    9 - Marco VAN BASTEN
    10 - Diego MARADONA
    11 - Johan CRUYFF

    [​IMG]

    Buffon is in goal, the most complete goalkeeper of all time, and will go down in history as the greatest #1. A Serie A inspired back back four and midfield pivot. Arguably the toughest defensive unit to penetrate. Baresi, the best defensive libero of all time partners Nesta, the most complete centreback of the modern era. Maldini and Thuram are my fullbacks; two all-time great defenders. Infront of my back four, is my solid midfield pivot. Rijkaard (defensive mid) and Matthaus (box to box) represents the heart and power of 'Iron Fist FC'.

    Messi is my goalscoring/playmaking right wingforward, Maradona my #10 and Cruyff starts on the left flank. All three are geniuses, and will interchange positions. With the solid defensive platform behind them, they will blossom. I needed a complete centre-forward, the technically-blessed Van Basten was ideal. A forward who would dovetail perfectly with any of my creative attackers.

    No team will score past Iron Fist.
    Iron Fist will destroy all teams that take the field to play them.
     
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  13. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    A few movements in points tallies of course (11 players with 4 extra points) but La-Maquina's first team just moves Thuram up into team 3, although I'll have to look into the selections again and consider if in effect Nesta would now be in team 1 (if merging his shirt 5 and 6 points he out-scores Moore; if not he remains alongside Figueroa in consensus team 3 I suppose).
     
  14. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    As we're using numbers and specifying a right and left centre-back (and La-Maquina's diagram does show Scirea level with Bergomi too) the fairest conclusion at the moment, to reflect all choices, would be for these to be the defensive partnerships in each consensus team as things stand (#5 and #6 being RCB and LCB respectively):
    Team 1 - Baresi and Moore
    Team 2 - Nesta and Beckenbauer
    Team 3 - Scirea and Figueroa

    Of course, Peru FC and La-Maquina did in essence still pick the same CB partnership in team 2 and team 1 respectively though, as well as the same CM partnership in team 1. As mentioned before, in terms of overall points, Beckenbauer is easily among the highest voted 11 players, but yes we are calculating the votes for each position/shirt number.
     
  15. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    84 players selected so far in total, so maybe we're not far away from an offering of 100 great players, balanced fairly evenly among positions/roles. Not that I had that in mind when I started the thread!
     
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  16. Hidegkuti78

    Hidegkuti78 Member

    Sep 2, 2015
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    With that in mind, I'd say that we'd have to look the remaining players mostly among crowded positions such as 10s and 9s.
    Not sure if they are already in the group but players like Kaká, Riquelme, Rui Costa etc or Shevchenko, Weah, Batistuta etc definitely deserve a Top 100 spot.
     
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  17. La-Máquina

    La-Máquina BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 5, 2013
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Country:
    Italy
    I viewed by number #5 as the stopper-type (Kohler, Bergomi) and my #6 the libero type (Krol, Scirea).

    No room for BREITNER or FALCÃO in my selections sadly. If I were listing the Top 4 XI's with the worlds greatest players of all time they would have featured.

    Wingers/wingforwards who were interchangeable for my 4-2-3-1 teams: JAIRZINHO, BEST, RUMMENIGGE, RIVELINO, STOICHKOV.

    With the abundance of playmakers, #10's, withdrawn forwards and trequartistas: I could find no room for ZIDANE, ZICO or DI STÉFANO.
     
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  18. La-Máquina

    La-Máquina BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 5, 2013
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Country:
    Italy
    #68 La-Máquina, Oct 16, 2017
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2017
    What's our next challenge @PDG1978 ?

    Modern players in a WM?
    Pre-war players in a 442?
    Nottingham Forest allstars using a derivative formation from the Danubian School?
     
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  19. Hidegkuti78

    Hidegkuti78 Member

    Sep 2, 2015
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina


    Can I propose a 3-3-1-3 with only '90s players?
     
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  20. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Feel free to have a go at any proposed selection on the thread yep.

    Does this qualify for the Danubian Forest one lol?
    Peter Shilton; Des Walker, Kenny Burns; Martin O'Neill, John McGovern, Lars Bohinen; Ian Storey-Moore, Duncan McKenzie, Trevor Francis, Grenville Morris, John Robertson
     
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  21. La-Máquina

    La-Máquina BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 5, 2013
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Country:
    Italy
    Yes, I didn't want Beckenbauer as the #5 or #6. I think he would blossom in a modern 4-2-3-1 as the #4/#8. The modern libero (a defensive midfielder who can build play from deep, hold, join attacks and lead the team).

    Beckenbauer-Rijkaard or Beckenbauer-Matthaus would be the perfect partnerships.
     
  22. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    That's likely how it would ordinarily go (actually we already have more defenders than would be picked in reality I think).

    Maybe any player mentioned among someones top 4 omissions would be a candidate - Rivera and Dalglish from my own have not been picked in a team as yet for example (Puskas and Baggio have been).

    But feasibly another 16 players could be picked within other peoples 4 teams if many more posters have a go at the original challenge (though really players should be picked on 'merit' as if the other selections had not been seen, rather than to add them to the pool of picked players).
     
  23. Hidegkuti78

    Hidegkuti78 Member

    Sep 2, 2015
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    I know none of them except Shilton and Francis :D
     
  24. La-Máquina

    La-Máquina BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 5, 2013
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Country:
    Italy
    :D Very well done, I can't fault this team! :thumbsup:
     
  25. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Or Beckenbauer-Platini haha!

    In essence I did see it similarly though - the thought being to use him from an attacking viewpoint much like he'd have played as libero, coming from deep with occasional dribbles and breaks to open up the field and create chances....but also helping defensively and constructively in a deep midfield role primarily.
     
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