All-Time 4-2-3-1 Challenge

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by PDG1978, Sep 6, 2017.

  1. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Thanks for all those Peru!

    Intriguing I think to see the notable omissons, due to the 4-2-3-1 requirements. Maybe you and La-Maquina will also come up with the 4 best/top players you feel you had to leave out of all 4 teams, but I suspect some French playmaking midfielders would feature in yours at least! The number 10 role was a very prized and stacked one I think for your choices. Despite me being the one to outline the 4-2-3-1 template, I suppose with the 'hybrid' allowances I felt I could have a similar balance to some types of 4-4-2 (or 4-1-3-2) or in effect comme's Greatest X of All-Time set-up (with a CM/DM and a CM/AM).

    So one French midfielder I'm referring to, Zidane (who I know is a favourite of yours Peru), I decided to slot into team 2 as he has Neeskens and Di Stefano in there with him. Spoiler alert but a similar thing is due to happen in team 1 for me too! I see you picked true number 8 type options in all teams, to make the best two-way partners to the anchor mid and number 10, and I see the way they fit in such a way and suspect others could follow suit if we get a lot of teams eventually, to make a 'typical' 4-2-3-1 even though I guess the anchor and playmaker partnership can be used at times even in a pure 4-2-3-1 (Falcao and Xavi are definitely both in their own ways playmakers no doubt of course anyway, but more CM/No8 types again in their own ways; Gullit and Matthaus were pretty capable at their best constructively too to be fair). I think the basic 4-2-3-1 template did dissuade me from going for Rivera as number 8 in team 4 though for example (or Hagi as another example of someone I'd be ruling out of that team on that basis).

    I'll probably wait a bit before starting to tally up votes and trying to form consensus teams, even if La-Maquina gets all his teams done soon too. As you've done all yours Peru, perhaps I'll reveal my team 1 fairly soon also (with the spoiler alert in the above paragraph, maybe it's guessable already I don't know).

    Interesting I ended up giving Maradona a number 11 shirt, and you gave Laudrup the same but one XI further down the line (but you picked him before I did, and in this case he's more a favourite of mine I suppose). Possibly Laudrup fits that slot slightly better even, although really I felt Maradona probably had to get in my team 2 at least.
     
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  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    From everything I read about Nasazzi I also understand how you are pairing him with Beckenbauer there Peru! In some respects I guess it'd be a (very) old-fashioned 'sweeper' with a modern (comparatively) libero but maybe it works in theory slightly like my Scirea/Sarosi idea would, but Nasazzi was full-time defender unlike Sarosi so probably less of a stretch to include him. We both had our oldest player in a defensive slot anyway!
     
  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Revealing my own Team 1 now and Puskas's reaction to not being in it and finding out the Hungarian in my team 2 was actually Gyorgy Sarosi too!

    1 - Lev Yashin
    2 - Cafu
    3 - Paolo Maldini
    4 - Franz Beckenbauer
    5 - Franco Baresi
    6 - Bobby Moore
    7 - Lionel Messi
    8 - Michel Platini
    9 - Marco van Basten
    10 - Pele
    11 - Johan Cruyff

    Hybrid with: 4-3-2-1 Christmas Tree with Cruyff in the midfield; generally/at least sometimes he may often roam around in such a line-up with Pele spending more time tending to play from left of centre in the attack perhaps and/or drifting out there when Cruyff is allowed to or decides to venture more centrally or all over the place. In a way I could even give Cruyff the number 10 shirt and Pele the number 11 for these reasons perhaps just as easily.

    Biggest 'punt': Platini in the centre of midfield, predominantly as deep-lying playmaker, aiming for a perfect connection with 'midfield libero' Beckenbauer in theory. combine_imagesteamone1.jpg combine_imagesteamone2.jpg combine_imagesteamone3.jpg
    (I'd understand and even agree with any idea Yashin is in some ways the biggest punt/uncertainty as best option in goal although for standing in own era it is clearer perhaps and it must be said some of the rivals he surpassed in fame/reputation seemed pretty handy - Beara, Grosics, Gilmar etc through to Banks too; the jist of his various capabilities as goalkeeper can be understood anyway I think and on his 'saves' compilation there is a great save worthy of his tag maybe I think vs Argentina in 1961 although his individual video for that game doesn't show it actually; other impressive saves and catches etc are noticeable and including in World Cups like one vs Sweden from 1958 but perhaps a save like that one vs Argentina might've been viewed as Banks-esque if on the same stage as his from Pele as far as I can tell - tipping a bullet shot onto the bar).
     
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  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    As the others have made diagrams I'll add some too for my nominal set-ups (if this one fully transformed into a 4-3-2-1 for example it'd look a bit different but it's fairly obvious in which ways probably):
    [​IMG]
     
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  5. La-Máquina

    La-Máquina BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 5, 2013
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Country:
    Italy
    #30 La-Máquina, Sep 14, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2017
    Here is my Team 3.

    They are called 'Counterstrike'.

    1 - Lev YASHIN
    2 - CAFU
    3 - Giacinto FACCHETTI
    4 - Marco TARDELLI
    5 - Elías FIGUEROA
    6 - Bobby MOORE (C)
    7 - Bruno CONTI
    8 - Xabi ALONSO
    9 - RONALDO
    10 - Michel PLATINI
    11 - Dragan DŽAJIĆ

    [​IMG]

    Style
    Counter-attacking football:
    - Quick vertical passing
    - Fast horizontal passing attacks
    - overlapping fullbacks
    - overloading opponent's fullback
    - exploiting space and forcing one-on-one's in crucial areas

    I wanted a highly effective winger-fullback partnership on both flanks. My wingers of choice would need to excel in this system: pacy, great crosses, hard-working, agile dribblers, efficient assist providers - which is why I preferred them over wingforwards like Best and Jairzinho). Bruno Conti was Italy's main weapon at the 1982 FIFA World Cup. Cafu and Facchetti will provide an overwhelming force out wide - two of the greatest attacking 'wingbacks' from the golden and modern era. For defenders, there is no scarier sight in football history than peak-Ronaldo running at you. El Fenómeno completes that electrifying attack.

    Platini is my #10, the control, pace and accuracy of his passing would be perfect for my attack. Ronaldo was also a great playmaker, so no doubt will maximise the goalscoring potential of Platini too.

    Marco Tardelli is my #1 choice for the box-to-box midfielder role in this counter-attacking XI. A very industrious and complete midfielder, who will protect the defence, will snap at the heels of the opponent across the pitch, glue the attack and defence with quick simple passing and be an offensive force when charging into the last third. For the #8 deep-lying playmaker role I had many top options (Van Hanegem, Didi, Bozsik) but I have not seen anyone pass with such great accuracy, pace and vision like Xabi Alonso, who suits this playstyle perfectly. He will be able to find his wingers/strikers all game and help to penetrate spaces with his ball distribution. If we need to slow down the pace, he can moderate the tempo with his metronome short passes.

    In Bobby Moore and Figueroa I have two of the most complete centrebacks in history. Moore will also provide long balls from deep to initiate quick attacks. Two expert readers of the game, with Elías Figueroa the centreback stronger in the air. Lev Yashin is my shot-stopper, a goalkeeper with incredible reactions.
     
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  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    [​IMG]
     
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  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    [​IMG]
     
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  8. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    [​IMG]
     
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  9. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    My 4 biggest omissions:

    Eusébio (POR)
    Michel Platini (FRA)
    Ferenc Puskás (HUN)
    Zinedine Zidane (FRA)

    Indeed, my omissions probably have more to do with the requirements of the system (4-2-3-1), especially for Puskás, who doesn't fit so ideally into my ideas even though I could probably have placed him as 9 (as in his famed Real Madrid version in partnership with Di Stéfano for my Team 4) or 11 (in a somewhat modified system as an hybrid left-forward behind a main striker). In any case, I feel that I'd have forced his inclusion.

    I thought of Zidane for my Team 3 to complete a proposed team for the triangulation of passes (practically all are playmakers or great ball-playing players there: Krol, Desailly, Figueroa, Carlos Alberto, Redondo, Xavi, Laudrup and Moreno), but Zico offered me the same quality for that idea and more power as an attacker.

    Zidane is definitely my favorite player in history, but in a general overview I think he was not as complete playmaker/attacker as Maradona, Zico and Platini, besides not being as polyfunctional as Di Stéfano or explosive like Pelé for my 4 proposed teams. Putting him as a deep-lying playmaker seems to be a good solution, but I'd certainly prefer the better recognizable 8's (box-to-box or holding midfielders) to maintain balance.
     
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  10. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Yes, I was also even considering Puskas as number 9 in my team 2 (also with Di Stefano behind), but I went with Eusebio's abilities as a better plan overall for that team I felt, and then kept deciding on other options for number 9 and number 10. Puskas generally played in teams with a more attacking balance than is common now I suppose.

    Yeah, I didn't exactly put Zidane as full-time deep-lying playmaker as I'd be wanting the system to be flexible and not have two players just sitting and holding and playing passes - if I had gone with that idea probably even Didi would fit better than Zidane (whether or not he was better at tackling), or Bozsik to make a creative part of a double pivot. Alonso too actually - maybe surprising to see him in La-Maquina's team 3 at first (Conti too to an extent perhaps) but he fits that deep-lying playmaker double-pivot idea perfectly (as shown at Liverpool even before his move to Real Madrid) so when considered further along with La-Maquina's preference and expertise with fitting complimentary players together to thrive in defined systems, it becomes an understandable call I think (and maybe sometimes the capabilities of modern players can indeed be doubted too much compared to legends).
     
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  11. SFC87

    SFC87 New Member

    Southampton
    England
    Sep 15, 2017
    #36 SFC87, Sep 15, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
    Hi all

    Saw this online and thought it looked fun. I'm a bit of an amateur so go easy :D

    I did consider losing Vieira and sticking Zidane in a more central role (to the left) with Keane just behind as the sole DM. This could bring in maybe Cantona or Figo to the strike force (which would require more shifting around of players) but even with Stam in defense alongside Campbell and Thuram (who can play centre back) at RB I kind of feel the attack needs 2 world class DMs (particularly when you have Carlos at RB)



    [​IMG]
     
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  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Thanks for the contribution mate.

    I think my initial post isn't necessarily easy to follow and now we are onto the second page, but did you just want to confirm whether this is your 4th choice team all-time, or just your take on a 4-2-3-1 team picked from players you know well from your time as a fan? I think it's the latter, and that's cool by me to have people add those too and show an interest like that, but yeah if there are 3 more to come (getting better in your view each time) following the same template that me, Peru FC and La-Maquina have been doing then I could add your selections to any consensus voting calculations too.
     
  13. SFC87

    SFC87 New Member

    Southampton
    England
    Sep 15, 2017
    Hi mate

    You are correct in that these are the best players of my "day". In my opinion better than the players I watch weekly on tv or at stadiums. I probably do have a sub conscious bias to them but like to think I don't :D. I would liked to have joined in properly and done the 4 selections, but I was a little late to the thread and to be honest my knowledge of football isn't as strong as the rest of you (I can't go back much before 1995) so would probably have struggled to come up with 4 teams.

    So let's just say this is my best 11 I could come up with!

    Regards
     
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  14. kovalt

    kovalt New Member

    Mar 26, 2015
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Country:
    --other--
    M y first team


    1. Buffon


    3 Roberto Carlos 5 Nesta 4. Baresi 2 Cafu



    6 Matthaus 7 Vieira


    14 Cruyff 10 Maradona 11 Messi


    9 Pele



    My second team

    1. Schmeichel


    5 ,Maldini 3, Beckenbauer 4 Cannavaro 2, Carlos Alberto


    6 . Gullit 8 Scholes


    21 Ronaldinho 10 Di Stefano 9 , Cristiano Ronaldo


    11. Ferenc Puskas.


    My third Team

    1 Yashin

    2 Brehme 5 Moore 4 Schirea 3 Thuram



    6 Xavi . Neeskens


    8 . Gento 10 Platini 7. Best



    9 . Ronaldo (Fenomeno)


    My fourth Team

    1. Dasayev



    2. Facchetti 3. Passarella 4. Koeman 5 Zanetti



    6 Raikard . 21 . Pirlo



    8 . Iniesta 10 M. Laudrup 7 Jairzinho


    11 . Romario


    .
     
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  15. Hidegkuti78

    Hidegkuti78 Member

    Sep 2, 2015
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    I really appreciate your thread idea, but... sorry, nothing personal, but Platini as a CM in a 4-2-31 is just not acceptable :)
     
  16. Hidegkuti78

    Hidegkuti78 Member

    Sep 2, 2015
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    First team

    YASHIN
    D.SANTOS ------------ NESTA ----------- BECKENBAUER ---------- MALDINI
    SCHIAFFINO ------------------ BOZSIK
    MESSI ----------------- PELE ----------------- CRUIJFF
    RONALDO



    Second team

    BUFFON
    CAFU -------- PASSARELLA ------------ MOORE --------- N.SANTOS
    -------- DIDI ------------------- MATTHAEUS
    GARRINCHA ------------ MARADONA ------------- CR7
    DI STEFANO



    Third team

    SCHMEICHEL
    -- LAHM -------------- SCIREA ---------------- FIGUEROA ------------- FACCHETTI
    RIVERA ----------------- RIJKAARD
    BEST ------------------ BAGGIO ---------------- INIESTA
    VAN BASTEN



    Fourth team

    BANKS
    THURAM ------------- BARESI ------------ NASAZZI -------------- R.CARLOS
    PIRLO ------------------- NEESKENS
    JAIRZINHO -------------- PLATINI ---------------- RIVELINO
    PUSKAS

     
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  17. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Probably, despite that I choose 4-2-3-1 as the template myself, I use a loose version for my teams, almost hybrid with other systems as described. So I don't pick two holding/anchor players in any team.

    But you also use playmakers deep in midfield Hidegkuti78, so that is not your objection I suppose - although certainly Pirlo, Didi too perhaps and even the versatile Schiaffino by all accounts could/did play more as deep-lying playmakers and/or part of a two man midfield. If you like you could detail the differences you'd see in using Rivera and Platini deep (nominally/mainly), as it could be interesting maybe.

    Cruyff (Messi less so I guess) would be coming back into midfield a lot to help both defensively and constructively I think anyway. Maybe the team even seems better in a 4-3-2-1 Christmas Tree permanently, but choosing it as such would violate my own rules lol!

    I guess La-Maquina is finalising his top two choices. Maybe I'll start to tally up inclusions after that, but more selections would still be welcome from anyone who wants to participate.
     
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  18. Hidegkuti78

    Hidegkuti78 Member

    Sep 2, 2015
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    Sure. Like you said, it is not a matter of being/not being a playmaker, but of the usual position and tasks they had on the pitch.
    Pirlo and Schiaffino (the latter in a part of his varied career) both were deep lying playmakers who had clear positions as CMs in the they not only built but also contributed in non possession. Pirlo won a world cup as a CM in a 4231 :)

    But you are right on Rivera, it was a distraction on my part. Indeed, much like Platini, it is a stretch to put him so deep.
    They were Trequartistas, full stop. No defensive task.
    I will edit that now.
     
  19. Hidegkuti78

    Hidegkuti78 Member

    Sep 2, 2015
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    First team

    YASHIN
    D.SANTOS ------------ NESTA ----------- BECKENBAUER ---------- MALDINI
    SCHIAFFINO ------------------ BOZSIK
    MESSI ----------------- PELE ----------------- CRUIJFF
    RONALDO



    Second team

    BUFFON
    CAFU -------- PASSARELLA ------------ MOORE --------- N.SANTOS
    -------- DIDI ------------------- MATTHAEUS
    GARRINCHA ------------ MARADONA ------------- CR7
    DI STEFANO



    Third team

    SCHMEICHEL
    -- LAHM -------------- SCIREA ---------------- FIGUEROA ------------- FACCHETTI
    PIRLO ----------------- RIJKAARD
    BEST ------------------ BAGGIO ---------------- INIESTA
    VAN BASTEN



    Fourth team

    BANKS
    THURAM ------------- BARESI ------------ NASAZZI -------------- R.CARLOS
    XAVI ------------------- NEESKENS
    JAIRZINHO -------------- PLATINI ---------------- RIVELINO
    PUSKAS

     
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  20. La-Máquina

    La-Máquina BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 5, 2013
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Country:
    Italy
    Here is my Team 2.

    They are called 'Big Game Allstars'.

    1 - Dino ZOFF
    2 - Djalma SANTOS
    3 - Nílton SANTOS
    4 - Johan NEESKENS
    5 - Giuseppe BERGOMI
    6 - Gaetano SCIREA
    7 - GARRINCHA
    8 - Franz BECKENBAUER (C)
    9 - Gerd MÜLLER
    10 - PELÉ
    11 - RONALDINHO

    [​IMG]

    Zoff-Scirea-Bergomi - represents a perfect GK+CB partnership. Scirea my libero, Bergomi the stopper. The intelligence and consistency within this trio is remarkable.

    I wanted Brazilians on both flanks. Fullbacks, Nilton Santos and Djalma Santos, revered for both their defensive and attacking prowess. Ronaldinho and Garrincha boast two of the greatest attacking peaks of all time.

    Scirea will control and lead the defence. Beckenbauer will control and lead the midfield. At #10 is the real genius though, Pelé. Pelé and Garrincha are re-united! Neeskens is an important addition to glue the team together will his all-round strengths and versatility (to adapt to Der Kaiser's and Pelé's movements).

    I needed an in-the-box predator: I chose the greatest, Gerd Müller.

    Every player can win the game for me.
     
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  21. Hidegkuti78

    Hidegkuti78 Member

    Sep 2, 2015
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    Damn, I forgot Ronaldinho
    I guess I'll put him in my fourth team, instead of Jairzinho (I know he'd fit better on the left, but I just don't want to dump Rivelino)
     
  22. Hidegkuti78

    Hidegkuti78 Member

    Sep 2, 2015
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    My biggest snubs

    Rivera
    Kaka
    Totti
    Shevchenko
    Batistuta
    Matthews
    Cannavaro

    Is there already a thread for specific Country All-time selections?
     
  23. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Oh, I cost Rivera his place now - oops!

    Ok mate anyway, I understand. Maybe I'm not so convinced they have to be trequaristas (and not that they always were). But in a typical 4-1-3-2 (variation on 4-4-2) formation I think either can be used as the CAM for example. Maybe my own 4-2-3-1 template is just not the typical one of today (although, ok sometimes Ramsey plays deep and gets forward or something today too).

    I made a video for Rivera vs Man Utd (away) 68/69 (also as it happens one for Hidegkuti himself vs England - maybe at a real, real, stretch, that Hungarian team could be said to have played in a 4-2-3-1 too but for me Hidegkuti and Bozsik are in no way playing at the same level of the team even if both end up overlapping and supporting each other in the midfield areas at times). Maybe you can see Rivera as more of a CM, or CAM, looking at that. But yes, somehow personally felt it was more a stretch to place Rivera deep in a 4-2-3-1. Platini, well I just went with it but of course Beckenbauer is meant to be anchoring/sweeping in midfield. Maradona once said Platini and him could be great in the same team as Platini could play deeper, in the midfield I think didn't he. But yes, although he spent a lot of time deep in Zona Mista he did have supporting mids like Tardelli, Bonini. And in the Magic Square he could be given the freedom too, although mostly I'd still see him as a midfield player and not a deep forward. I didn't think I was maximising Platini, but that maybe he'd still be the best option. Technically probably he contributed better than Pirlo defensively though, arguably?

    Anyway, no problem for the question/statement, but I hope not to get into a debate if that's ok really. Because we could all be criticising each others teams and I wouldn't want that really, or have the energy/interest to defend my own choices lol! Thanks for your selections though anyway. I will find an all-time countries XIs thread for you too.
     
  24. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
  25. Hidegkuti78

    Hidegkuti78 Member

    Sep 2, 2015
    Club:
    ACF Fiorentina
    No problem, I guess a nice part of threads like these is the 'debate' itself, as long as it doesn't get heated (which is far from being the case).
    I am probably biased by the modern 4231 where the 2 in there are quite different (in terms of licenses) from the mid 2 in a 442, where they (or at least one of them) can be much less constrained. For example, I'd be happy to start a Zidane or a Rui Costa in the midfield of a 442, but in a 4231? Their only place is the number 10 one.

    Thanks for the threads!
    I guess I can start a newer with that specific purpose?
     
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