All-Time 4-2-3-1 Challenge

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by PDG1978, Sep 6, 2017.

  1. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Bit of a random idea, but I got thinking that people often find all-time XI's hard to decide upon, partly because the formation can be one of many options (typically used, or sometimes custom-designed to fit the best players in it). And although it's in essence a modern formation, I also think 4-2-3-1 is not so far removed from many of the formations used over time, depending on slight variations and certainly the role of the 'number 10'.

    So the task is to select 4 teams - the first is the best you feel you can come up with (in your opinion/fitting your ideas and preferences etc). Then the second is picked from all other players to play the game, ditto the 3rd and then 4th too. And the teams should be posted in reverse order (starting with Team 4 - I'll post mine soon) so that you have done all your thinking and tinkering before starting to post, and also so that people are selecting their first team without seeing many other attempts, assuming we take a while between posting one team and the next even though they should all be decided.

    The criteria is to pick what you feel is the best team, more based on peak version of players rather than career overview, but of course you are free to consider that a very consistent or prolonged peak is of great value and also to your taste. Also 'greatness' in own era is not necessarily a big factor but feel free to err on the side of considering how good the players were in their own time as main guide if that fits your ideas best, or to err on the side of giving the benefit of the doubt to some older players in terms of how they might play in a more modern time (I'd suggest no automatic penalisation because they didn't have the best and most advanced training and diets etc - but again if you feel it's relevant to your ideas it's not completely invalid to give the nod to a modern player due to that sort of benefit making them in your view the 'best' option - it's also not invalid to pick a majority of players from a specific timeframe if that fits your ideas best).

    So your 4-2-3-1 can be virtually a hybrid with another system, or interchangeable with it, but it should be able to be lined up like this:
    -------------------------------1--------------------------

    2-------------------5--------------------6-----------------3

    --------------------4--------------------8-------------------

    ---7-------------------------10------------------------11---

    ------------------------------9----------------------------------

    Although we'd be tempted to use different numbers in some cases if handing out actual shirts, it might be best to stick to those so a team can just be listed in number order.

    It's your choice as to how to fit the roles together. One of the centre-backs can be a sweeper/libero and even placed behind the other defenders. In midfield I am going with an anchor type and a playmaker type, but feel free to go a different way and to vary it between your 4 teams of course too. Likewise you can pick traditional wingers, wing forwards, roaming attacking midfielders etc in the wide positions, depending on what you feel are the best options (to help make the best teams).

    Also I thought it'd be interesting to think about what we feel are the top 4 players we left out of all the teams due to not feeling they were the best fit. Maybe a lot of choices will fit the number 10 role (all mine do, although a couple might've had more chance in another slot in effect) but you might spread it around more. My top 4 omissions ended up as follows:
    Ferenc Puskas
    Roberto Baggio
    Gianni Rivera
    Kenny Dalglish

    My Team 4 will follow in a bit as first example (unless someone is really quick with their thinking/picking!) but feel free to get your thinking caps on. I suppose it'll take a while before anyone else is ready to post Team 4 and/or their '4 top omissions', so it won't be clear how much interest there is for a bit but I thought it was a cool sort of random idea people could put thought into and if we get many selections I'll be able to tally up how many votes players are getting (perhaps allocating points from 5 to 2, and then 1 for an honourable mention as a top 4 omission - or just tallying those as an extra thing and giving points from 5 to 1 for inclusions in the XIs, with the second team members getting 3 points in each case).
     
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  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Ok, here is my Team 4:

    I've included some images since I started the thread, but it's not mandatory obviously. I've put Dalglish in, celebrating his honourable mention!

    1 - Gianluigi Buffon
    2 - Djalma Santos
    3 - Bixente Lizarazu
    4 - Patrick Vieira
    5 - Laurent Blanc
    6 - Fabio Cannavaro
    7 - Cristiano Ronaldo
    8 - Gunter Netzer
    9 - Gerd Muller
    10 - Michael Laudrup
    11 - Dragan Dzajic

    Hybrid with: modern 4-3-3
    Biggest 'punt': Netzer, despite that I chose him instead of other options as he could play well from deep (and I think I generally swayed more towards picking players to fit well in the system and with each other for this one), in the midfield, backed up by Vieira rather than an outright DM combine_imagesteamfour1.jpg combine_imagesteamfour2.jpg combine_imagesteamfour3.jpg
     
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  3. PuckVanHeel

    PuckVanHeel Member+

    Oct 4, 2011
    Club:
    Feyenoord
    Is Baggio perhaps also the best player to never have received an ESM team of the month (or year as in 1995) nomination? He was 27 and a couple of months when the thing started of course. Gianfranco Zola, was older and arguably not a better player, but did receive those.
     
  4. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Could be a good call out of the eligible ones. You mean inclusion in a consensus XI I think? But he didn't get many (or any if I mis-remember) nominations from individual publications either I suppose. I guess if 93/94 and earlier were voted for he'd have had some (perhaps a lot when his fame was greatest at Juve in particular months) but good call and interesting given some of his high ratings at Bologna, Brescia etc.

    Zola had a purple spell or two at a 'late' age I suppose and even peaked around 1997 maybe I'd say. But he fell behind Baggio for 1998 World Cup consideration eventually (based on 97/98 instead of 96/97 that made sense I suppose).
     
  5. poetgooner

    poetgooner Member+

    Nov 20, 2014
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I'm confused, we're suppose to come up with 4 teams, starting with our 4th best team, first?
     
  6. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    In your own mind (/on your own paper) you pick your first team first and so on.

    But to make sure you're satisfied with all selections after having thought in depth, to make sure you'll post 4 teams, and to make sure people aren't revealing their first teams early and perhaps influencing others, I thought it was a good idea to specify posting them in reverse order.
     
  7. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Also to build the suspense for every poster's selections as they work their way to revealing their first XI maybe! Hopefully it doesn't have the opposite effect and put people off contributing their teams (because I'm hoping/thinking when someone wants to contribute their views they can just do it in the form of their own teams and ideas about who to pick and how the teams might play theorectically).

    Probably I didn't want to kick-of the thread already laying out my own first XI either. I know it is a bit in reverse though, but hopefully it works out ok.
     
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  8. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Thanks for the rep Excape Goat. It'll be cool if you want to have a go at some teams as you certainly have plenty of knowledge and enthusiasm about legendary players.

    As, we're (if some others do have a go!) using a 4-2-3-1 template, votes can be counted for each position/slot in the line-up too of course, to work out the consensus that way (although a consensus XI wouldn't have the same thought in terms of how players fit together I suppose).

    It's not meaning to seem like I'm putting my HM's (top 4 excluded players) in as subs or anything in my XIs btw, although they'd probably make great choices for an 'attacking option'. Probably it'd make more sense if there were subs to go with all-round/utility choices so it could be these (giving a few more hints as to who didn't make any of my XIs!):
    Ruud Gullit
    John Charles
    Lothar Matthaus
    Duncan Edwards
    (Seemingly Edwards could make a good option for that Team 4 I picked, being able to play very well in defence, instead of or alongside Vieira, and even in the AM role perhaps).
     
  9. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I'm ready to present my Team 3 now anyway, and Rivera consoling himself with his Ballon d'Or after finding out he wouldn't even be a sub but just an HM!

    1 - Gordon Banks
    2 - Jorginho
    3 - Nilton Santos
    4 - Frank Rijkaard
    5 - Matthias Sammer
    6 - Elias Figueroa
    7 - Garrincha
    8 - Bobby Charlton
    9 - Ronaldo
    10 - Zico
    11 - George Best

    Hybrid with: 4-1-3-1-1
    Biggest 'punt': Sammer as sweeper in a back 4, but I think Rijkaard could hang back and cover/switch with him often in such a team

    combine_imagesteamthree1.jpg combine_imagesteamthree2.jpg combine_imagesthree3.jpg
     
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  10. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Thanks @Perú FC - I guess you might like to have a go at some teams too. Hopefully I didn't make it too complicated to follow in a foreign language, but your English is good and you probably can see the idea from my posts too.
     
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  11. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Having started giving out thanks for reps, and invitations to make your own teams (the thread itself is an invitation though of course), even though I have reservations to type it due to the username haha, I'll better add....

    Thanks Sexy Beast too, and yeah have a go if you like at your own ideas based on what you've seen and know and how you think you'd be fitting players into XIs, roughly at least based on 4-2-3-1 set-up.
     
  12. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Haha, I'm making more posts giving our invites to people who rep me than anything else now!

    Obviously you're welcome to have a go too La-Maquina and I'd be interested to see your teams.

    From now on, I'll just say it goes without saying anyone who makes a post or gives a rep is invited and their teams would be valued, and taken into consideration when counting votes or making a consensus XI.
     
  13. La-Máquina

    La-Máquina BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 5, 2013
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Country:
    Italy
    Great idea @PDG1978
    I will begin building my teams tonight! Each team will no doubt have a succinct style.
     
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  14. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I expected no less from you mate!
     
  15. La-Máquina

    La-Máquina BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 5, 2013
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Country:
    Italy
    #15 La-Máquina, Sep 12, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2017
    Here is my Team 4.

    They are called 'The Entertainers'.

    1 - Peter SCHMEICHEL
    2 - Carlos ALBERTO
    3 - Roberto CARLOS
    4 - Fernando REDONDO
    5 - Jürgen KOHLER
    6 - Ruud KROL
    7 - Luís FIGO
    8 - XAVI Hernández (C)
    9 - ROMÁRIO
    10 - Michael LAUDRUP
    11 - Cristiano RONALDO

    [​IMG]

    Team 4 carries the name 'The Entertainers', but don't let that make you overlook this team's defensive pedigree. It has a modern feel to it: this team is obviously possession-centric, while having the cutting edge of a counter-attacking team. At the heart of the team is my favourite unit - the passing carousel of Redondo-Xavi-Laudrup. I believe this trio will dictate the tempo of the game and provide creativity and inch perfect ball distribution across the pitch. Figo is a true winger on the right, providing natural width and delivery from the flank, while Cristiano Ronaldo represents the perfect goalscoring wingforward-type on the left (I had Stoichkov in there originally, completing the Dream Team triangle, but Cristiano is an upgrade). Romário is my #9, a supreme finisher who fits my style perfectly. With Figo, Laudrup and Xavi supplying him with assists, Romário will continue to be the king of the box. Laudrup was accused of sometimes being not greedy enough, but with Cristiano Ronaldo and Romário as my target goalscorers, I don't mind. How can they be called 'The Entertainers' without Ronaldinho or Rivelino you may ask? My team needed a highly-lethal goalscoring left wingforward to partner Romário (not another ball dominant playmaker).

    This team would adopt the combined style of Barca and Madrid. Roberto Carlos is my attacking fullback, while Carlos Alberto on the other flank is both great in build up play and defensively strong too. I couldn't have a team celebrating attacking football without two Brazilian fullbacks! I wanted an elegant passing libero and looked no further than Krol. To provide balance in that back four, I required a centreback who was a pure defender, one of my all time favourite stoppers, Kohler. Schmeichel is my commanding presence and voice in the box, plus, his legendary throws to set up attacks are an asset with Ronaldo and Figo on the flanks. All of my back four love the ball.

    This team would be a delight to watch, and would no doubt be very dangerous in today's game. A team built to keep the ball and break down any stubborn defence, while able to kill the opponent whether they sit deep or press high against us (with our width, pace and masterful delivery from midfield) it ticks all the boxes. Team 4 can hurt you on the outside and hurt you on the inside.


    @PDG1978 - thoughts?
     
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  16. RickyKalamata

    RickyKalamata Red Card

    Dec 24, 2016
    With the Elves
    Club:
    AS Bari
    Country:
    Cyprus
  17. La-Máquina

    La-Máquina BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 5, 2013
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Country:
    Italy
    I don't have a place for the great Alfredo Di Stéfano yet!
     
  18. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I like it and I knew you'd be putting a lot of enthusiasm and thought into it.

    Interestingly a few parallels to my team 4 I see - maybe it'll turn out to be the most similar of our line-ups but we'll see. Your midfield is a bit more specifically designed and mine slightly more mix and match probably! And you have Cristiano Ronaldo on the other side of course, but it's a similar feel with speedy wing forwards, a clinical finisher and Laudrup.

    I can definitely see your team gelling very well and keeping possession expertly, as well as having a great cutting edge. Interesting to see the names of the players that ended in team 4 too - four of them were unavailable to me by that stage to be honest!
     
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  19. La-Máquina

    La-Máquina BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 5, 2013
    Club:
    Juventus FC
    Country:
    Italy
    My next two teams are:

    - Team 'Counterstrike', designed for counter-attacking efficiency with All-time legends.

    - 'Big Game Allstars', South American attacking flavor married with European steel.


    I don't know which one is stronger yet.



    Biggest defensive omission?: Passarella. He didn't quite fit any of my four teams.
     
  20. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Revealing my Team 2 now - Baggio seemingly not taking his omission from all 4 teams quite so well, although Taffarel either thinks he made it in himself or he had a wager that Baggio wouldn't!

    1 - Peter Schmeichel
    2 - Carlos Alberto
    3 - Ruud Krol
    4 - Johan Neeskens
    5 - Gaetano Scirea
    6 - Gyorgy Sarosi
    7 - Luis Figo
    8 - Zinedine Zidane
    9 - Eusebio
    10 - Alfredo Di Stefano
    11 - Diego Maradona

    Hybrid with: 4-1-4-1 with roaming and at times swapping wider players, but with especially Maradona with license to come infield a lot, in a team which squeezes in several attacking legends who might be team 1 considerations for some, as best I felt I could

    Biggest 'punt': since Zidane does have the support of Neeskens as an anchor albeit not a static one, and Di Stefano coming back to help defensively as well as creatively, I think it has to be Sarosi although by all accounts he was an all-rounder, very capable technically and physically, and when playing in a primarily defensive position very difficult to prosper against so I'm thinking maybe he could fit in well in such a team, with Scirea mopping up behind and occasionally taking the ball forwards himself to instigate things

    combine_imagesteamtwo1.jpg combine_imagesteamtwo2.jpg combine_imagesteamtwo3.jpg
     
  21. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    My Team 4:

    01 - SCHMEICHEL, Peter (DEN)
    02 - VOGTS, Berti (GER)
    03 - ROBERTO CARLOS (BRA)
    04 - MONTI, Luis (ARG)
    05 - KOHLER, Jürgen (GER)
    06 - MOORE, Bobby (ENG)
    07 - FIGO, Luís (POR)
    08 - GULLIT, Ruud (NED)
    09 - MÜLLER, Gerd (GER)
    10 - DI STÉFANO, Alfredo (ARG)
    11 - CRISTIANO RONALDO (POR)

    [​IMG]
     
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  22. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    My Team 3:

    01 - ZOFF, Dino (ITA)
    02 - CARLOS ALBERTO (BRA)
    03 - KROL, Ruud (NED)
    04 - REDONDO, Fernando (ARG)
    05 - FIGUEROA, Elías (CHI)
    06 - DESAILLY, Marcel (FRA)
    07 - MORENO, José Manuel (ARG)
    08 - XAVI (SPA)
    09 - ROMÁRIO (BRA)
    10 - ZICO (BRA)
    11 - LAUDRUP, Michael (DEN)

    [​IMG]
     
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  23. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Interesting how things are shaping up re: little similarities, and slight differences in set-ups and use of the same players!
     
  24. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    My Team 2:

    01 - BUFFON, Gianluigi (ITA)
    02 - THURAM, Lilian (FRA)
    03 - NÍLTON SANTOS (BRA)
    04 - ANDRADE, José Leandro (URU)
    05 - NESTA, Alessandro (ITA)
    06 - BARESI, Franco (ITA)
    07 - GARRINCHA (BRA)
    08 - FALCAO, Paulo Roberto (BRA)
    09 - VAN BASTEN, Marco (NED)
    10 - MARADONA, Diego (ARG)
    11 - BEST, George (NIR)

    [​IMG]
     
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  25. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    My Team 1:

    01 - YASHIN, Lev (USSR)
    02 - DJALMA SANTOS (BRA)
    03 - MALDINI, Paolo (ITA)
    04 - RIJKAARD, Frank (NED)
    05 - NASAZZI, José (URU)
    06 - BECKENBAUER, Franz (GER)
    07 - MESSI, Lionel (ARG)
    08 - MATTHÄUS, Lothar (GER)
    09 - RONALDO (BRA)
    10 - PELÉ (BRA)
    11 - CRUYFF, Johan (NED)

    [​IMG]
     
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