Again........we fall further and further behind.

Discussion in 'Education and Academia' started by the shelts, Dec 18, 2012.

  1. StiltonFC

    StiltonFC He said to only look up -- Guster

    Mar 18, 2007
    SoCal
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'm a substitute teacher ( English major, minors in French and Spanish ) at a California Distinguished school in a district with a broad socio-economic range. I may have recounted this story before. I subbed for an English teacher who was sick. The first day of her absence there was a different sub, and her honors English sophomore classes (2) did an assignment that she asked me to handle on the day I was there for her. When we found out that the kids had already completed that work., the teacher in the adjacent room texted her and we decided that a timed-writing would be assigned and I would take the 70 papers home, red-pencil them and return them to the absent teacher to handle. I spent several hours doing those tasks.

    Two of her students attend the same church that my wife and I go to, so I asked them whether my comments on their classtime essay were useful to them. They told me they never got the paper back. I encouraged them to wait a couple weeks and ask the teacher what happened to their essays, that they were interested in what the sub thought of their work.

    The teacher never returned their papers.

    I was personally disappointed because I had committed a considerable amount of time into the project and the absent teacher has initially bought into it. But what I am most disturbed about is that she denied those 70 kids the opportunity to benefit from another person's perspective on their written work. It's immodest of me to say that I'm a better critic of high school level written work than the absent teacher, but I'm certain it's true.

    I chalk her behavior up to laziness, which I can understand -- who wants more work? -- but I cannot avoid the thought that she betrayed an educational commitment to her students. That's unprofessional. I think that's a growing problem within the profession. As kids get harder and harder to teach, the tendency is to let them set the bar.
     
  2. phedre44

    phedre44 Member

    SKC
    Apr 1, 2008
    Kansas
    Club:
    Sporting Kansas City
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know others have already told you how completely off-base you are with this, but I'm going to try to address your points one by one. For the record, I am a teacher. Everything I tell you is based on my experience in the two different school districts I've worked at.

    Pension? No. At both schools I worked at, I was put into KPERS, which is a 401K plan for Kansas State employees. Not a pension. It's very similar to what other educated professionals receive in the private sector. My mother works in IT at a hospital, and she has the same retirement plan. We have similar education levels and are both professionals, so I see no reason why I should have a crappier retirement plan than she has.

    Ability to retire at 50? Nope. Under the KPERS program, I can retire and receive my full retirement benefits at age 65, if I have at least 5 years of service (I've already got 3 years, and I'm nowhere close to 65), or at age 60, if I have 30 years of service (assuming I remain a teacher in the state of Kansas for my whole professional life, this is what I will qualify for). If I retire at 50, I won't have 30 years of service, so I would receive a 57.5% reduction in benefits. That's right. If I retired at 50, I'd lose OVER HALF my retirement benefits. No thanks.

    Unlimited sick days? No. Complete bullshit. At both of my school districts, I had a set number of sick and/or personal leave days built into my contract. At my first district, that was 12, and at my current district, it's 10. If I don't use my sick days, I can roll them over to the next year. Why? Because the district sets aside enough money to pay subs for those sick days, and if I don't use them, that money is still there. It can be saved til next year and used then. Also, there are certain calendar days when I can't use my sick leave. If I am puking and have a fever the day before winter break starts, I either have to go to work anyway, or I don't get paid. I can't use one of my paid sick leave days that day, no matter what. Ditto the days before and after any long weekend or break. Furthermore, EVERY teacher I know hates using sick days. It sucks. Prepping for a sub is a lot of extra work, and then students often have to be retaught everything the next day anyway because you get math specialists subbing in English classes and musicians subbing for science classes, and ugh. In the past three years, I've used three sick days and regretted every one of them.

    Full ride, no deduction health insurance. Ha. This one is just freaking hilarious. My first school district didn't offer health insurance AT ALL. They had a "205" plan, in which they gave you $205 you could spend on health insurance or medical bills or child care. Please, show me an awesome health insurance plan you can get on your own for freaking $205. My current district has three insurance plan options, the cheapest of which costs me $43 a month out of pocket, and comes with copays and deductibles. The other two plans cost me over $100 per month out of pocket each, with smaller copays and deductibles. But, hey, at least I get dental coverage. :rolleyes:

    Summers off. Yep. I don't have to work in the summer. I also get payed less than other professionals with a similar education level because of this. So....give and take.

    2 weeks off for winter holidays? Well, we got a week and a half this year...but sure. Close enough, I guess.

    Computer and book reimbursement. Not sure exactly what you're getting at here. If I need books or something for my classroom, the school pays for it, as they should. It's not my job to buy my students books and supplies. My school provides me a computer to use at my job, but it stays at school and will be given to another teacher whenever I leave. Neither school district has ever payed me for my own personal books or computers. My father (not a college educated professional, by the way) had his car, phone, and home Internet all payed for by his business. My school district sure as shit doesn't pay for stuff like that, even though I use my home Internet for work related stuff all the time.

    So, in summary, just like any other professional in the private sector, I get a set number of vacation days each year, I have a crappy 401K retirement plan, and I have decent but not great insurance. The only difference is that I get summer and winter break off, but at the same time, I get also get a lower salary than I would expect from a private business.

    Please, explain to me how teachers aren't worthy of a few sick days, a 401K plan, and health insurance. I'd love to know why I shouldn't be getting any of these things.
     
  3. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    I can't disagree with this. You see it at the college level, too. One of the local colleges got itself bit on the ass when its nursing program lost its accreditation, caused in large part because the students it admitted weren't able to do the work necessary in order to learn enough to pass the various exams. And in my 20+ years, I can tell you that fewer and fewer students can read and understand an actual book written for an educated lay-audience.
     
    Auriaprottu repped this.
  4. EvanJ

    EvanJ Member+

    Manchester United
    United States
    Mar 30, 2004
    Nassau County, NY
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    One of my teachers said the school required teachers to bring a doctor's note to miss time before a vacation, and I think that makes more sense than punishing teachers who are sick before vacations without caring about why the teacher didn't work. I'm no expert on education or labor law, but if you have any influence in a teachers' union, I propose the union asking for teachers to be able to use sick days at any time if they provide a doctor's note.
     
  5. msilverstein47

    msilverstein47 Member+

    Jan 11, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I could kill someone and not have to post a $1mill bond...your rant has nothing to do with my "issue"
     
  6. usasoccerhooligan

    May 1, 2005
    I think this guy decided to unearth this thread again so that he could shout his inanity in an echo chamber, hoping that no one would notice.

    I can't put my finger on this guy's problem.
     
  7. msilverstein47

    msilverstein47 Member+

    Jan 11, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    oh no, he's definitely not alone...I believe that it's really all about Union busting...apparently the Unions are the root of all that is evil in this country. Personally I think that it's ALEC but he's welcome to his view.
     
  8. Auriaprottu

    Auriaprottu Member+

    Atlanta Damn United FC (f***ing CHAMPIONS)
    Apr 1, 2002
    The back of the bus
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Then don't. Just hand him the Gold-Bond and a pair of gloves. He might figure it out on his own, or you might have to talk him thru it.
     
  9. the shelts

    the shelts Member+

    Jun 30, 2005
    Providence RI
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Nope.

    Sorry but the public is on to you and your union flunkies.

    Great teachers should have great pay.
    Bad teachers should be fired

    YOUR union stands in the way of this.

    Sadly in 2005 everyone was buying into the whole "teachers matter" line of nonsense. By 2013 enough people have figured out that this ridiculous spectactle of "I teach so I matter" nonsense was a load of BS.

    We are on to your scam, your unions scam and your PT work for FT pay. Your union has badly let you all down. Many teachers will get defaulted on their pensions (Cadillac pensions) because the public would rather let the town/city go belly up than pay these eye-watering pensions for people who retire at 48.

    Sorry guys, the party is OVER. The pendulum has swung the other way and for all current teachers, the lesson will be one that is taught by the most un-forgiving of teachers......Mr Adversity.
     
  10. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Oh look. Shelts' Tourette's syndrome is acting up again.
     
    TheJoeGreene and guignol repped this.
  11. the shelts

    the shelts Member+

    Jun 30, 2005
    Providence RI
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    No wonder there are so many malpractice lawsuits all over the country. I used to blame the lawyers, but with "doctors" (chortle) like Dr. Wanker (sp) I guess they have some merit.

    Reacting, by losing an argument, about the downfall of the American educational system (all down to the disaster that are teachers unions) by indicating someone has Tourette's is really weak doc. Really weak.

    You must be able to do better, oh wait, you can't be fired as the union has your back, no need to try harder.
     
  12. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Ditto
     
  13. the shelts

    the shelts Member+

    Jun 30, 2005
    Providence RI
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Quoting yourself..........HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA .....owwww my ribs hurt........HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

    The public "servants" who quote themselves are hilarious.
     
  14. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    That picture is of one the Hopper guys, right?
     
  15. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    john, let me ask you this:

    you're in the bus, you see a guy in the car shaking his head, swinging his arms and talking to himself. do you go sit down next to him and start up a conversation?
     
    Jacen McCullough repped this.
  16. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    If I encountered The Hopper on a bus, I'd sit as far away as possible and inspect my knees.
     
  17. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 22, 2001
    Don't drink beer but like cheese
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Sorry all, but...

    Really?

    Yes
    Yes

    But you forgot to add that good teachers should get good pay, not poor pay.

    Whose union? Is that the union that is fighting to make sure that teacher are evaluated fairly? Is that the union who is fighting to try at increase the national assessments rather than leave them as a single, standardized test? Is that the union that is working to try and increase standard (in ways such as introducing the Core Content Standards)?

    And I don't approve of my local teacher union. But it is far better than the alternative.

    So...teachers don't matter? You do realize that it take a village, and that everybody needs to be involved. Not just the schools. Not just the parents. But the local businesses. The police. The fire department. Everybody.

    What teacher works part time?

    I'm all for changes. What is your solution?
     
  18. Minnman

    Minnman Member+

    Feb 11, 2000
    Columbus, OH, USA
    Club:
    Columbus Crew
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It is interesting how the individual who started this thread lists a bunch of high-performing educational systems, goes on to bash American teachers unions, and yet ignores the fact that many (most?) of the other countries he lists have teachers unions that are at least as strong, in some cases stronger, than their American counterparts.

    His focus on evil US teachers unions misses the point, of course. We're a nation that has embraced a wealth inequality gap that is unique among the world's developed nations: 1% of America owns 40% of the wealth, the bottom 80% owns a whopping 7%. We have a lot of poor people in the States, a lot of have-nots. It's ludicrous to ignore the effect this has on our ability to run a high-performing system of locally-funded public school.

    You know, there was this scandal recently in the Columbus City Schools system. Seems certain adinistrators scrubbed records to improve attendance records in some schools; attendance being an item that affects the grade a school system gets. Now, I don't condone this kind of activity. The top school administrator resigned; an interim administrator was brought in from one of the nearby suburban schools; some people lost their jobs. Okay. But I have to say that, as a parent, I thought it laughable that schools should in any way be respnosible for making sure my kid shows up everyday. That's MY job as a parent. Why the hell should schools be rated on whether parents are competent enough to get their kids to go to school? I know I'm oversimplifying the situation somewhat. Still, it was a story reported as 'yet another public school failure' which, to me, was so obviously a failure of society, of parents. We've made scapegoats of public schools and teachers, blamed them for shit they shouldn't be responsible for. Shit that is directly related to that wealth gap, the level of poverty that we, as a nation, accept. It's shameful.
     
  19. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    it's probably not just the GRADE the school gets but also their funding which is at stake: the percentage of their projected budget a school gets is acc to their ADA (average daily attendance) which makes the abuse cited here double reprehensible but also doubly understandable, for all the reasons given.
     
    msilverstein47 repped this.
  20. msilverstein47

    msilverstein47 Member+

    Jan 11, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  21. guignol

    guignol Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 28, 2005
    mermoz-les-boss
    Club:
    Olympique Lyonnais
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    the US is not the only country worried about falling behind: this article is bemoaning france's backsliding in math, which is like a religion here.

    http://www.lemonde.fr/education/art...-posees-en-mathematiques_3524501_1473685.html

    the questions are for JHS kids and the average is plummeting. the worry is not for the elites, there will still be fields medals in the future, and the best students are doing fine (the kind of math you need to do to get a bac S can only be termed psychedelic) but the gap between the few and the many is pretty bad news.
     
  22. GiuseppeSignori

    Jun 4, 2007
    Chicago
    Club:
    Liverpool FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, that sounds familiar.

    http://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/are-american-schools-really-failing-79675459718
     
  23. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    I just skimmed the video, but I saw the contention that these tests don't draw from a random sample of students -- that the test population is different in some countries than in others.

    If that is true, that is a HUGE untold story.
     
  24. Dr. Wankler

    Dr. Wankler Member+

    May 2, 2001
    The Electric City
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    If I remember correctly (video's not working for me), we tend to test everyone in the US, and most countries only test their college-bound, or potentially college bound students. Educators have known this. Journalists, apparently, not so much. So here again is an example of how we need better vocational tracks for people not interested in college. The idea that everyone should go to college may be the worst non-tea-party-generated idea of my lifetime.
     
    TheJoeGreene repped this.
  25. JohnR

    JohnR Member+

    Jun 23, 2000
    Chicago, IL
    If that is true, the study is deeply at fault for not putting that information front and center so that no journalist could miss it. Because it invalidates every single article ever written about U.S. test results.

    If, of course. I actually have to work today. I hate that. But when I'm done, I'll look into this more.
     

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