Again, once again, PLEASE understand:we're just not that good USA v ES [R]

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Karl K, Mar 29, 2009.

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  1. deuteronomy

    deuteronomy Member+

    Angkor Siem Reap FC
    United States
    Aug 12, 2008
    at the pitch
    Club:
    Siem Reap Angkor FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Karl, I just want to say how much I enjoy these threads and what you provide here for Big Soccer.

    1. It is unusually difficult to win on the road in qualifying matches in Central America. Those chain link fences are there for a reason and it still looked like there were monkeys trying to crawl over them.
    a. confidence can disappear in these circumstances
    b. first touch can disappear in these circumstances
    c. tactical awareness can be a challenge
    d. have seen many US teams/players shift into some sort of "survival mode" through the years

    2. Their first goal was brilliant and fortuitous. We had not gotten our sea legs up under us.

    3. Missing Howard and even Gooch was bigger than I suspected. They are two stalwarts we can rely upon in these "street fight" situations. The confidence they provide others by being on the field is difficult to measure.

    4. We came back from an 0-2 deficit on the road in Central America to tie. I can never remember that happening. Perhaps, we should have won, even.

    5. Several of our players looked poor last evening. Pearce, Califf, Kljestan. Just me, but Bob's biggest mistake was not starting Pablo. He eats up Latino teams like Captain Crunch.

    6. Several players rose to the occasion. Frankie redeemed himself. Altidore appeared to be a very difficult matchup for the smaller, less athletic Salvadoran defenders. Again, I thought Ching was a warrior, and I am bemused regularly by the people who have no idea what he is doing out there.

    7. We got some points on the road. We came back. We still lead the hex. Wednesday night we play in the safe confines of Nashville.

    8. We are not that good. It's good to get an early wake up call so we can go back to work.
     
  2. PALE568

    PALE568 Member

    Jun 5, 2003
    mind your own.
    ...and Karl K gets to start his "no one would be able to make this team look good" threads. This is one BigSoccer tradition that deserves to die off.
     
  3. wcssstar33

    wcssstar33 Member

    Aug 28, 2008
    Milwaukee
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    wow..calm down.

    I loved the analogy of Barca losing to Espanyol, man u to Fulham. Bad results happen. I think we are just still on a high from the Mexico game, and this is a shocker...it really is. I think the boys will come back with fire and beat T&T into submission. If that happens, I think we can forgive Bob and the players.

    By the way...seeing fans climb up those fences and seeing things thrown from the stands on TV was pretty shocking.
     
  4. PALE568

    PALE568 Member

    Jun 5, 2003
    mind your own.
    oy. if it was only a 'post'. the part that I don't get it why this is always a new thread. like he has something vitally important to say that simply can't be included in an existing post-game analysis thread.
     
  5. gyr0

    gyr0 New Member

    Mar 31, 2002
    NYC
    First, lets clear a few things up.

    Traditionally, ES are a poor side-- which on paper we should beat handley. but last night's encounter proved otherwise. They have several players who out performed our boys in midfield and shredded our backline (of course, it didnt help that it sucked)

    Some of my impressions from the game were as follows:

    - We slowed down the game every time we touched the ball until the 75th minute when we were forced to attack in desperation. When we decided to take people on, suddenly we became very dangerous. The bunker tactics need to go out the window.

    - Beasley is not the offensive force of old. Perhaps he is still nursing an injury, but his propensity to take people on and cut in to the inside is gone. He should not be on the field come Wed.

    - I am not an Onyewu fan, but Califf's inept performance proved how vital he is to our team. The lack of organization and poor distribution from the backline last night was appalling.

    - Torres is a star and his touch, vision and workrate really stood out for me. He should start against T&T.
     
  6. sysco76

    sysco76 Member

    Oct 11, 2004
    Potomac Falls
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Boca had a bad game like half the team but to me Pearce is just awful. How is he a permanent starter for us if he plays in Germany's 2nd division and never even sees time on the field, ever :eek:
     
  7. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    One thing that's clear is that El Salvador isn't a "very weak side" at home.

    We're not Argentina. We're not going to waltz down to El Salvador and blow them out.
    We've played in El Salvador 5 times now in the modern era of US soccer (since 1990), and have come away with only 1 win. There's a reason for that. We're not as good as we think, and El Salvador at home isn't as bad as we think.
     
  8. Nutmeg

    Nutmeg Member+

    Aug 24, 1999
    Karl's attempts to exonerate Bob from any responsibility when things go South for the US are comical.

    I agree with the sentiment that we weren't that good today, directly BECAUSE of Bob, not in spite of him. Here are the mistakes I saw last night:

    1) Pearce - as we've discussed here for a while, the writing has been on the wall that Pearce is a mistake waiting to happen. Bob has refused to see his shortcomings and stubbornly runs him out. And Pearce was embarrassed. A guy who hasn't played consistent minutes for months on end in a 2nd tier league has no business playing on our defensive line. That's on Bob.

    2. Danny Califf hasn't played for his club since... Months? He's been injured. Bob went with the only option he felt he could trust in that situation because Bob hasn't developed other options. Again, that's on Bob.

    3) Carlos Bocanegra has been used as a left back for a very good defense for a reason - he's not a great Central Defender. Why? He isn't exceptionally good at reading attacking development, gets caught out of position, and either gives up too much space or makes rash challenges. Exactly what happened on ES' first goal. Boca struggled to close down his area all night long - his job in a zonal marking scheme. This was predictable, and again, it's on Bob.

    4) El Salvador's coach basically sent Bob his playbook ahead of time. He was going to pack the box, particularly shutting down the wide players with double, triple, and even quadruple teams, and then hope for a counter with his quick young front runners. De los Cabos did exactly what he said he was going to do. And Bob didn't adjust tactically until it was almost too late. BUT! In all seriousness, kudos to Bob for making adjustments.

    Against a shit team like El Salvador, Bob can make mistakes like those and still manage a draw. I repeat, ES is a shit team we have no business drawing. Many of their guys can't land USL contracts. In the World Cup pressure cooker, those mistakes mean 3 and out.

    We're a much better team than we showed last night. Our coach screwed up player selection and deployment, and those screwups contributed to a disappointing result.
     
  9. Paul. A

    Paul. A Member

    Mar 16, 1999
    Wales, UK
    At least we got a BIG wake up call!!!!
     
  10. polska26

    polska26 Member

    Feb 20, 2008
    wow Sacha scored a hattrick vs a C sweden team and everyone here is praising he is God. the last 2 games he was pure shit bc the isnt that good. he got lucky against a reserve team from sweden. Take a look at the sweden team we played in january and compare it to the team that tied portugal 0-0 yesterday.
     
  11. uclacarlos

    uclacarlos Member+

    Aug 10, 2003
    east coast
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    This can't be said enough.

    Last night was the norm, ppl. It's as if ppl expect us to waltz to 27 points.

    It also needs to be pointed out that we were almost starting to score at will. We tied the game and kept going for the victory, and nearly got it.

    I *think* we prolly would have won w/ Howard in goal, and Gooch in the middle, not that it matters and not to take away from ES surprising, quality performance. Kudos to them!

    But once we got the goal, we started playing closer to our ability and we took the crowd out of it. The fact that we took such firm control of the game at the end is relieving.

    The fact that we let them take control to begin w/ is disconcerting.

    How about we take a balanced, nuance view of the game, no?
     
  12. chad

    chad Member+

    Jun 24, 1999
    Manhattan Beach
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And that is the crux of the matter. The claim about the difficulty of away WCQ's is a self-fulfilling prophecy when you send out teams hyper-conservatively.

    Bradley learned this from Arena. Go back to the cycle for 2002 and the hilarious scaredy-cat line-ups Arena put out in away games. Bradley's tactics last night were beyond the pale stupid. He was outwitted by the El Sal coach.

    So before we shrug our shoulders and say "gosh, gee, away games are toughies!", we ought to examine to see how we contribute to this by playing like cowards.
     
  13. Bolo

    Bolo New Member

    Jan 16, 2007

    Amen...
     
  14. TheLostUniversity

    Los Angeles Galaxy
    Feb 4, 2007
    Greater Boston
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This much is crystal clear: the team as it plays under RoboBob is just not that good.
     
  15. art

    art Member

    Jul 2, 2000
    Portland OR
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Apparently so. 2-0 down with under 20 minutes to go in El Salvador is a circumstance that, not that long ago, would have been an insurmountable obstacle for the US.

    The US did play like utter shit until the last 20 minutes but a point on the road in WC qualifying is a good result, irregardless of what "should" have happened and how many pre-pubes around here expected us to win 10-0.
     
  16. peledre

    peledre Member

    Mar 25, 2001
    Sioux Falls, SD
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I appreciate what Karl does here.

    I think it's important to keep realistic expectations of what this squad can do, and I think US Soccer fans in general have very short memories. I can't think of many final rounds of WCQ that we haven't struggled in at least one or two of the away matches (excluding Mexico, which is always tough away), and at least one of the home matches.

    I was pretty impressed that the US was able to come out with a point against the Sallies. Going down a goal, in that environment is difficult, and the Salvadorans antics only added to the frustration.

    There aren't a lot of teams in the world that could walk into an environment like last night and cruise to an easy win. I think the US showed that it was capable of dominating possession and maintaining composure despite the conditions in stretches. Until we can do that for 90 minutes, one mental lapse, one bad first touch, or one bad pass can kill us.
     
  17. bshredder

    bshredder BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 23, 1999
    Club:
    Millwall FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is a great post. You're never as good as you are on your best day and never as bad as your are on your worst day.

    It wasn't Bob's formation I had so much a problem with, it was his lineups and player selection. Pearce hasn't looked good for the USA since the Argentina game and he is not playing for a poor BII team. That speaks volumes. Spector is by far a better option. Sasha is extremely inconsistent. You never know what you can expect from him and starting him is always going to be a risk.

    We have no depth on the wings. Robbie Rogers needs to at least be called into camp and developed. He is a work in progress but Bob at least needs to do some of the work.
     
  18. braun

    braun Red Card

    Feb 22, 2001
    metro Boston
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    IIRC, Karl had faith in Kljestan, until these last 2 games. SK showed all his flaws last night and that means that he is not ready for the rest of the hexagonal. Maybe Gold Cup? We will always have players that look promising in friendlies and let us down when it matters. Every nation has them but we have a whole lot of them.

    BB was a bit shackled by Gooch wrenching his knee and Howard getting the undeserved Mexico yellow card and he was blind to Califf's real form (he's not that good anyway). BB continues to use Pearce at LB because at the moment he has no one really who's better. Bornstein? Beasley? right footed-Spector & Hejduk? Boca? (that would be frightful, the guy can't get down the wing and what was that slow movement of the ball forward last night?)

    The first few minutes were great despite all the racket in the stadium but not only were our passes going to the Salvadorans but the long ball was used, not a good sign. It is after the ES goal that BB should have made his first adjustments.

    BB has to have learned something from this away qualifier that will carry to our performance both at home and away.

    Beasley is changed. He has lost that old turbo drive. And he is used to playing when he actually plays in a 4-3-3 like at Rangers. Actually we were at times early on last night morphing into a 4-3-3. We need real wingers but Rogers (most likely candidate) is not ready and playing Dempsey on the left like at Fulham will not stop him from pinching in.
    Torres seems like a perfect complement to Bradley Jr. but only if Bradley can play a true Dmid like Mastro, Edu or Clark would have last night.
    Califf is even more prone than Onyewu to getting cards and fouling near the box thereby allowing pipsqueaks like Romero and Quintinilla to score on freekicks. Something we cannot do well.

    As I said, the first few minutes looked promising. We tried some long shots and although we're just not too good at them, we should have continued them. Mastro would have helped in that regard, though he is quite inaccurate.

    The bigness of Gooch and Jozy (if he had started) would have certainly made a difference vs the Sallies. No reason why they wouldn't make a difference vs TNT, who also gave up 2 to ES.
     
  19. VioletCrown

    VioletCrown Member+

    FC Dallas
    United States
    Aug 30, 2000
    Austin, Texas
    Club:
    Austin Aztex
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wasn't me that was making the comparison. It was luciusmagister that posted the picture and the score in response to someone suggesting that even European powers would have a hard time qualifying in Central America.

    It seemed to me that he was making a very bad comparison. Which is why I said what I did. Sounds to me like you agree with me.
     
  20. VioletCrown

    VioletCrown Member+

    FC Dallas
    United States
    Aug 30, 2000
    Austin, Texas
    Club:
    Austin Aztex
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The crowd had nothing to do with it? What crowd? I see two people and a bunch of empty seats!

    The point made by the original poster that you're commenting on is that crowds have an effect. Are intimidating. I find it hard to believe that ManU could have been intimidated by that apparently empty stadium.
     
  21. VioletCrown

    VioletCrown Member+

    FC Dallas
    United States
    Aug 30, 2000
    Austin, Texas
    Club:
    Austin Aztex
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well. So much for my memory. It must've been in the quadrangular preceding that. I guess I should do research before I post.
     
  22. VioletCrown

    VioletCrown Member+

    FC Dallas
    United States
    Aug 30, 2000
    Austin, Texas
    Club:
    Austin Aztex
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Really? You must not have seen much Centra/South American soccer then. It's why there are quite a few of us that say that top European teams would have a hard time winning games there.
     
  23. bostonsoccermdl

    bostonsoccermdl Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 3, 2002
    Denver, CO
    Decent post, but what concerns me more than the defense, is once we get the ball, we cant really do much with it offensively.

    We continue to rely on set pieces, and have a hard time generating opportunities from the run of play... This has plagued us repeatedly, and last night was no different. This comes down to our poor first touch. When our players have to take the extra 2 seconds to settle the ball, it allows the opposition to get into position and neutralize us..

    Now if we had the skill to take players on one on one, things would be different, but THAT isnt going to happen.
     
  24. wcssstar33

    wcssstar33 Member

    Aug 28, 2008
    Milwaukee
    Club:
    Newcastle United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    once again, these results need to happen to a young team. This puts them back in their place, I don't see them losing again in the WCQ's. (thats right, we at least draw at Azteca)
     
  25. Baysider

    Baysider Member+

    Jul 16, 2004
    Santa Monica
    Club:
    Los Angeles Galaxy
    And this is why this thread is still necessary. Our players can't pass, Heyduk can't jump, and it's all Bob's fault.

    If we discussed this six months ago, everyone would have been down on Bornstein and wanting Pearce. I can't remember how many times i've seen people here say that Boca is a terrible left back and should only be there if you have no other choices.

    Spector is coming off injuries, has had little time with the national team, and doesn't even play center back for his club team. Adu has yet to prove himself above the youth level. But, in the best big soccer tradition, if we only had those players all our problems would be fixed.


    The thing is, I do think Bob had a bad game. We knew ES was going to bunker and counter. This is the worst situation for Landon. We should have put him in the midfield (for Klejstan) and then started both Altidore and Ching.

    And yes, Chad Marshall should get a run out. Although, central defensive pairings are something you don't want to screw around with.

    But the point of the thread is right. We're just not that good. But people don't want to hear that. We must be that good, therefore if we're not, it's all Bob Bradley's and Karl K's fault.
     

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