ACC 2019

Discussion in 'Women's College' started by Tom81, Dec 24, 2018.

  1. Tom81

    Tom81 Member+

    Jan 25, 2008
    That was the bigger missed call than the collision between Pinto and Ivory.
    A PK at that time is a game winner.

    I've read with interest many of you guys' comments on the Pinto/Ivory collision.
    The opinions range from Clear Red Card (most UVA fans and CrazyHorse), definite yellow card (CPT) and 2 players going after the ball simultaneously, No foul.

    Val mentioned being on a ref's board seeing a couple of "no call" opinions.
    I honestly don't know, but think you err on the side of protecting the GKer. A yellow based on CPT's opinion.

    A tightly called game certainly doesn't favor UNC.
    As to Mucherera, if I'm a UNC fan I love her.
    I just can't stand her complaining (not on ticky tack fouls) on plays where she bulldozes people!
     
    ping repped this.
  2. Number007

    Number007 Member+

    Santos FC
    Brazil
    Aug 29, 2018
    I said yellow minimum. I could even live with foul, no yellow...no foul is ridiculous. Pretty sure the GK is done for the year.
     
  3. ping

    ping Member

    Dec 7, 2009
    Cool that you posted in the ref forum. Always good to get multiple perspectives. Especially good to get opinions from refs who are interested in the game but generally more "neutral" in regards to this specific game.
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/need-help-with-my-perspective.2107326/

    Majority so far see it one way but there is some disagreement so will be interesting to see the future responses. Scratch that.....starting to get some mixed opinions as additional posters respond.

    You all missed the foul if you thought it was on McCool. The tackle by UNC on McCool was clean, the foul occurred right after at the top of the box when #3 from UVA pushed the UNC player in the back. It was clear when it was shown in real time. When they flashed to the replay they basically focused on McCool getting tackled and the commentators kept going on about McCool blah, blah, blah. Watch it again. This was an easy one and nothing "creative" about it from the ref.

    The dude messed up a lot of calls but this one he got correct.
     
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  4. Number007

    Number007 Member+

    Santos FC
    Brazil
    Aug 29, 2018
    he no called shirt grabs and real pushes, then ( I can only assume) called players putting up two hands as pushes. he was awful. End of.
     
  5. Val1

    Val1 Member+

    Arsenal
    Mar 12, 2004
    MD's Eastern Shore
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Well, that's easy. She plays 110%. The less gifted player who gives it her all is always going to inspire fans.
     
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  6. Number007

    Number007 Member+

    Santos FC
    Brazil
    Aug 29, 2018
    its more than that.
     
  7. blissett

    blissett Member+

    Aug 20, 2011
    Italy
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Well, could it somehow also have to do with her name? I had never heard of someone called Ru and Ru Mucherera sounds like a funny name! :giggle:

    I am of course joking, I don't follow her team so I never even see her play. But, even without knowing her, I am more inclined to be a fan of a Ru Mucherera, than, let's say a Joan Smith (if I have to follow a "Smith", let's make it at least a Sophia Smith ;)).
     
    Number007 repped this.
  8. Theresa Seem

    Theresa Seem New Member

    Manchester City
    United States
    Dec 29, 2018
    I got the below from an article at the NISOA (National Intercollegiate Soccer Officials Association) website:

    Goalkeeper Rights And Privileges
    ***
    First, the goalkeeper cannot be charged in any manner when he/she is within the penalty area. The goalkeeper can only be charged within the penalty area if he/she is obstructing an opponent or dribbling the ball with his/her feet. Field players can legally charge an opponent as long as the ball is within playing distance and the contact is shoulder to shoulder and the player has at least one foot on the ground and the arms are close to the body. This is not permitted with the goalkeeper within the penalty area. If the goalkeeper is outside the penalty area, an opponent may legally charge him/her like any other field player. The safety of the goalkeeper is most important. If a goalkeeper is charged, the official must immediately deal with the situation and award a foul and warn the opponent that this type of behavior is unacceptable.

    Pinto clearly left her feet, charging the GK (whether Pinto knew it or not, but she should have known given that players are not permitted to charge blindly at a loose ball w/o regard for other field players), with no regard for consequences.

    Fair, Foul, Reckless Or Serious Foul Play
    A foul is defined as “a rule infraction by a player on the field of play during play for which a free kick is awarded to the player’s opponent.” Reckless play is defined as “a player has acted with disregard of the danger to, or consequences for, the opponent. A player who displays reckless play shall be cautioned.” These two definitions are from the NFHS Soccer Rule Book. Serious foul play “must be against an opponent, between players competing for the ball, committed on the field of play, and a direct free kick foul.” This definition is from the NCAA Rule Book, Rule 12.3.1.1.
    ***
    These are a few examples of when a foul becomes serious foul play. In these instances the player committing the foul must be ejected.

    Goalkeeper Safety
    ***

    The only fair charge [by opponent against GK] allowed is ‘nudge’ or ‘contact’ with near shoulder, (not violent nor dangerous), at least one foot on ground, ball in playing distance, arms held close to the body.

    Per these articles, this should've at the very least been a yellow card.
     
  9. ping

    ping Member

    Dec 7, 2009
    Confirmation bias. Find evidence that supports your argument, present it as fact. Case closed. We get it. Unfortunately reality isn't that simple as is evident from the ref forum responses:
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/need-help-with-my-perspective.2107326

    The only problem with your assertion is that you state the offensive player charged the goal keeper. The third replay that was (mysteriously) left out of the clip that was originally posted by the UVA fan shows the the attacker got the ball first with her head and was therefore charged by the goal keeper(though the second replay shows that too but not as clearly.) That is the reason why many in the ref forum sided with the attacking player. She was equally in a position of danger and the goal keeper was late to the ball therefore endangering the offensive player.

    read this forum and you will get a lot of different opinions on the play
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/need-help-with-my-perspective.2107326

    Ex. Video 1:
    I believe both players’ challenges are not intrinsically reckless. So at its core this scenario is no different than so many challenges (especially when gk comes out) in which contact is inevitable unless someone pulls out. We judge those based on timing. In this case, the attacker does play first. But the gk does indeed in her challenge block the attacker’s header as well.

    If either player had played first and tipped the ball away so that the other player had not played the ball at all, it would be certain foul contact by the late player. This scenario is an effective block of a header by the keeper, and so I have no foul. It is a sickening collision, but neither of these players got to where they are today by going half assed into challenges.


    Everything is open to interpretation but the fact is this isn't an easy call either way as some assert. The ref forum responses are clear evidence of that as responses are all over the board.
    https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/need-help-with-my-perspective.2107326/
     
  10. Val1

    Val1 Member+

    Arsenal
    Mar 12, 2004
    MD's Eastern Shore
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    There was a third replay? Fvck. I didn't mean to leave it out.... I was just busy and it's a pain in the butt uploading to youtube and my wife had signed out of my account and I had to re-find my password for my channel.

    Pure user error on my part. Sorry. I didn't mean to withhold "evidence".

    Anyway, that clip has been viewed 700 times in the past two days. And as I've only posted it on here, it's all BS users looking and looking again.
     
  11. Val1

    Val1 Member+

    Arsenal
    Mar 12, 2004
    MD's Eastern Shore
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Is it really?

    So far, he's the only guy who has posted anything related to the laws of the game. Ultimately, what I wanted from the ref forum was application of the rules. No one has posted that. All they've given is their (maybe) more expert opinions.
     
  12. Theresa Seem

    Theresa Seem New Member

    Manchester City
    United States
    Dec 29, 2018
     
  13. ping

    ping Member

    Dec 7, 2009
    Yes, yes it is, and here is why. I'll quote the poster: "These two definitions are from the NFHS Soccer Rule Book."

    I agree that it is great to get more info on the "laws of the game."

    But did everyone miss the important part? NFHS. The poster used High School rules to support their point. That is a huge tell.

    I don't care which side you are on. NFHS has no say in the "laws of the game" at the NCAA D1 level.
     
  14. ping

    ping Member

    Dec 7, 2009
    http://www.region19.org/d/Soccer_2018-19_Rules.pdf

    The safety of ALL players is "most important."

    Please show everyone the section of the NCAA rules that specifically references "Goalkeeper Safety" as you stated earlier. I see you added "[by opponent against GK] "

    The only reference to charging a goalkeeper is
    12.1.11 Violently fouling the opposing goalkeeper while in possession of the ball in the penalty area;

    Did I miss something in the video? Did Ivory have possession of the ball?
     
  15. Number007

    Number007 Member+

    Santos FC
    Brazil
    Aug 29, 2018

    Ping, did you play soccer at a high level? I ask this for context, no more
     
  16. Val1

    Val1 Member+

    Arsenal
    Mar 12, 2004
    MD's Eastern Shore
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    I fully admit that I haven't seen this website. But here are the next two sentences after your quote:

    Serious foul play “must be against an opponent, between players competing for the ball, committed on the field of play, and a direct free kick foul.” This definition is from the NCAA Rule Book, Rule 12.3.1.1.

    Now, I have no idea who the National Intercollegiate Soccer Officials Association is, but trade associations explaining to members how to apply the rules of their profession is a real thing. Keeping members current, beyond the obvious re-certification process, is again, a function of such an association.

    The key, I think, and why I posted in the ref forum as well, is to what extent "protecting the keeper" is a thing.

    I mean, it is; it's just not defined. For instance, just two weeks ago in the Carabao (League) Cup in England, as one keeper was preparing to drop kick the ball, after he dropped the ball and before kicking it, an opposing player flicked out his foot and nicked the ball away. Never touched the keeper. He, was of course, whistled for the foul and got a yellow for his troubles.

    We've all seen it dozens of times, a keeper goes up for a ball on a cross or a corner, his arms outstretched (so he clearly has the advantage of others who are just waiting for the ball to descend to head height, he gets bumped, and a foul is whistled.

    In the second vid I posted in the ref forum, the Virginia player goes in and barely clips the FSU keeper. Now, if that had been two field players and one of them was laying down on the ground and gotten the same clip... Probably not a foul.

    The simple fact is that keepers get protected all the time. Since they can use their hands, they approach the ball in a different posture/attitude than a field player. In the collision we are talking about, Pinto has her hands about her chest. She could protect her head if needed. The keeper, trying to scoop the ball with hands, is unable to similarly protect her body/head as she approaches contact.
     
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  17. ping

    ping Member

    Dec 7, 2009
    Val1 repped this.
  18. Number007

    Number007 Member+

    Santos FC
    Brazil
    Aug 29, 2018
  19. uncchamps2012

    uncchamps2012 Member

    Jul 9, 2011
    Hoping UVa goalkeeper is ok or will be soon. I hate to see this happen to any player. I don’t know the right call. Clearly two kids giving their all for their teams. Pinto leading with her head seems reckless , but clearly she did not intend to harm her.
    Someone is going to call me dumb, and it’s true I am not a soccer expert, just a fan, but that does this play look like it heading the ball is not permitted? Pinto has no reason to go in like that. UVa goalkeeper has to need to go out so aggressively . How can this game be made safer? UNC seems to have someone have to medically retire from soccer roughly one every other year or more from concussions. Similar at other schools? I love this game, but sure wish it was less dangerous.
    Best wishes to UVa keeper
     
    Val1 repped this.
  20. Soccerhunter

    Soccerhunter Member+

    Sep 12, 2009
    I too wish Laurel Ivory a speedy recovery. No matter what team a player is on, in the end I am sure that none of us fans wishes anyone injured.

    I was at the game and because I have been ill, I ended up not wanting to walk further to where the UNC fans were and with my UNC hat on sat among the surprisingly numerous Virginia fans. I, like those fans, was worried about the injury to Laurel Ivory and after the game found myself compelled to go down to the railing where the Cavaliers were on the grass stretching and cooling down and loudly complimented them on their excellent skills and effort, and hoped loudly that Laurel would be playing soon. Nothing special, just a human being feeling compassion for good players trying hard and responding to the shock of injury.

    Over the past two seasons I happen to have had some (quite) small interactions with Brianna Pinto and her parents, and I am absolutely convinced based on what kind of good person I perceive Brianna to be that she had no intent whatsoever to hurt Laurel. At the time, I noted that Brianna walked back across the field while Laurel was still lying on the grass and bent down and spoke with her briefly and touched her hand. (I'm wondering if they know each other from prior US youth team camps.)

    I thank Val for posting the collision in this thread. The slow motion view clearly shows Briana looking up at the ball the while she was running underneath it. Just at 32 seconds on the video she puts her head down to try to make contact with the ball as it brushes by her face, and the collision occurs a split second after that. Perhaps it is reckless to run under a ball looking up at it and not focusing on other players nearby. Perhaps lessons are learned. I suspect that this incident will not be forgotten by Briana.

    On a brighter note, perhaps Virginia will move on into the NCAA tournament in the same way that Florida State did a year ago when their top keeper dislocated her shoulder on a dive to catch a shot in the ACC finals against UNC. That would be fantastic!
     
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  21. uncchamps2012

    uncchamps2012 Member

    Jul 9, 2011
    I can’t believe someone wished pinto would break her leg. I don’t care who a kid plays for. I don’t care how aggressive they might me themselves. I wish no player an injury. The refs can call me fouls and cards on a player to control the game. I might wish a could gets called or my team gets a pk, but wishing injury on a player is sick
     
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  22. Glove Stinks

    Glove Stinks Member+

    Jan 20, 2014
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    I really don’t think anyone on here wishes that
     
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  23. uncchamps2012

    uncchamps2012 Member

    Jul 9, 2011

    Well someone above said this

    “Obviously my perception is clouded, being a UVa fan and all, but I find myself hoping that someone breaks Pinto's leg in a 50/50 ball. And the only ever person I've ever wanted injured, ever, in 45 years of being a multi-sport fan, is Grayson Allen.”

    This is an awful, awful thing to say about any player.
    I am not going to name who wrote is. You can find it earlier in this thread if you would like. Terrible.
     
  24. Soccerhunter

    Soccerhunter Member+

    Sep 12, 2009
    Champs, I completely understand your outrage, but I do think that we all need to cut fellow posters a little slack when they react, as human beings will, with anger and then later cool off. I know that I react angrily and then regret it later, and both for my sake and for my family and friends, I certainly do not wish to be a permanently angry or resentful person.

    These anonymous forums unfortunately tend to allow more unguarded outbursts, but I personally feel that their success is tied to a level of civility to be observed by us all. Yes, there would be a problem if a poster consistently wished harm to players, coaches, referees, or other posters, but I suspect that we all would like to be forgiven for a random unfortunate comment in the heat of passion. (And.... from my experience one can never know when we will meet face to face. I unexpectedly found myself sitting right in front of UNC4EVER at the 2009 UNC v Stanford NCAA championship game in Texas, and then in 2018 literally rubbed shoulders sitting next to Blissett at the US v Japan U20 women's match in Carcaneau, France. In both cases very fine people!)

    And let me say that your posts are consistently positive, inquisitive, and pleasantly appropriately partisan. I am happy to be involved with this kind of interchange. It's the folks like you, the gang down at FSU, CPThomas, Cliveworshipper, Blissett, MRAD, JBS01, and a host of others* make participating in BS fun!

    *(I better stop listing as the number is too long but most regular posters come to mind.)
     
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  25. blissett

    blissett Member+

    Aug 20, 2011
    Italy
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    --other--
    Thank you very much for your kind words. :)

    And thank for your wise words about the discussion that was raised here also. I agree with you that internet, sadly, does that: words can escape in the middle of a heated discussion that can be regretted soon later. Once, they were just forgotten and going to disappear into thin air, now they're written on a board and can come back haunting us forever. But I don't think it's fair to nail someone to words that he would probably bite his tongue about if he could come back in time, at least if they don't come from a person that consistenly showed a disruptive behaviour to these boards.

    Of course, this doesn't mean that I condone wishing injury to players. I hope my message came across the way I wanted it to, in the same spirit @Soccerhunter has written his own.

    Oh, by the way, the correct spelling of the city where we met is Concarneau. ;):laugh:
     
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