Abolish the Draft

Discussion in 'MLS: Commissioner - You be The Don' started by adam tash, May 8, 2014.

  1. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    It really should, or at least the MLS/USL superdraft.
    But does it make MLS look bad that the college kids aren't up to their standard? Without that, your point, that continuing to draft them is a bit of an odd if they can't make a roster, is a good one.
    OTOH, they are college kids so they are supposed to be smart. They can probably figure out where they stand in the world of professional soccer.
    It's an interesting issue, because top players here very rarely opt to attend university, and in the rare cases when they do, they certainly don't play for their uni club. I admit, I'm stumped for a recent example, all I can think of is Steve Coppell reading his econ texts while on ManU roadtrips.There have to be more recent examples, though.
     
  2. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    the problem is not that college players are not up to the standard - its a numbers game - a problem of allocation and pecking orders.

    if any player is too far down the depth chart on a team it doesnt matter how good they are or arent - i take issue with the idea that college players wouldnt be good enough if they actually got a chance TO PLAY ON THE FIELD.

    when Tata calls miles robinson a "great defender" but barely plays him - is it because of the standard of robinson or is it the 5 argentenians and the 2 former/current usmnt defenders ahead of him on the depth chart?

    college players are being squeezed out by mls teams spending on foreign players. since they are being pushed further down the depth charts - fewer of them are breaking through - it is happening independent of their quality. there are much fewere "college player slots" available to be filled in the current version of MLS than ever before....

    many college players would breakthrough and establish themselves if they were being given playing time in MLS - quality or lack thereof is not the only factor in whether a player or category of player finds success.
     
  3. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Can't Miles Robinson both impress Tata as a great defender and not be up to the standard of the defenders above him? In this instance, you're noting that Tata liked the player, so there clearly was no grudge. Managers will play the players who give them the best chance to win and keep their jobs. Higher quality play is far and away the greatest reason for how managers make these decisions. A manager who is trying not to overwhelm a very young is another, but that wouldn't apply to post college kids.
    We've had this discussion before. I say the Occam's razor argument is that the players who don't play at a club just aren't as capable (at least in the eyes of the manager) as those who do.
     
  4. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    when MLS teams spend 6 or 7 figures on a player they are going to get a long leash and be favored over college players on 5 figure salaries - college players are used as subs and contigency plans.
    players also get better with experience and often need a few full-time seasons to become the player that they can be - look at yedlin or roldan - they werent star players their first year. players improve with playing time - if they arent getting necessary playing time to improve - then they won't. and that isn't due to their quality - it is opportunity. a college player with a season or 2 of playing time could become better than a high-priced foreign playr but will rarely be that straight out of school. the development curve is the problem not quality.
     
  5. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    ? But Roldan got his chances. Both Roldans have. They showed in practice (where players prove themselves) that they were worthy of game time. Their examples of earning time and getting it doesn't show that other players deserve more time, does it?
    Yedlin returned to SSounders as a homegrown player. Lots of homegrown players get opportunities.
    How is the system biased against college players if the examples of college players getting time are out there? Wouldn't that rather say that those not getting time aren't on the same level, failed to impress as much in training, didn't earn what was clearly available? Managers are looking for talent. Seasons are long and there are a lot of opportunities, and there many, many examples of higher paid MLS players getting benched for lesser paid players.
     
  6. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    the timelines of college players are already squeezed as it is - having to wait 2 or 3 years to become a starter means you are already 24-25 by the time you have established yourself in MLS - which then puts quite a low ceiling on what type of career you can even have.

    Roldan and yedlin are the best-case scenarios - but look @ both of them - they took a couple years in MLS before establishing themselves and became much better players by year 2 or 3 of their MLS careers. college players need 2-3 years to acclimate to MLS...so imagine if you are a college player who doesnt get a chance in your first 2 or 3 years cuz you are stuck behinda david villa or ibra - then IF you do get your chance - you are 23-24 - then you are growing and improving and settling into your role @ 25-26 - and by then a move to a bigger league is a long shot and people start to call you too old to integrate into the USMNT - roldan and yedlin are EXCEPTIONS.

    look at players like Vincent or Dean who just retired from MLS in their mid20s - they did the math and realized they had likely already missed their USMNT boats and chances at a high-paying career and decided to try something else.

    college players need MLS playing time to improve and all college players signifcantly improve and change over their first 2-3 MLS seasons - so saying they aren't good enough to play as rookies and that they need to be better is obfuscating the reality they face...and missing the complexity of why fewer are establishing themselves in MLS recently.
     
  7. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The top two draft picks were 18 and 19 years-old.
     
    mschofield repped this.
  8. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    I dunno, you can take it up with Vermes. What he's saying is that the draft is less relevant because the players with the most potential are choosing the academy route (where SKC provides money for top players to pursue a college degree if the choose, which I found interesting ). In later interviews, he walks it back a tiny bit, but really not much and it sounds more like MLS asked him not to crap all over their PR event. The draft is fading away, but for the very basic reason that the players aren't as good as those coming through the academies, at least in the opinion of Vermes and Philly.
    BTW, they face the reality they face because of the choices they've made in life. There is nothing wrong with their choices, but all choices have consequences. College player, in Vermes words, are for the most part overwhelmed both physically and mentally by June of their rookie year, which means they arrive old and their first year is usually a waste. There are exceptions, but remember that Vermes built a significant part of his club through the draft in 2008-2012. He believed in the draft. He no longer does.
     
  9. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    through 9 games this season.....how many minutes have gone to draft picks this year? any???
     
  10. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    #535 adam tash, Apr 26, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
    the reason that the draft has faded away JUST LIKE I SAID is not b/c the college players aren't good enough anymore.....

    its that the model of MLS team player development is not including developing college players anymore.....even teams without academies prefer other categories of players......MLS wants to be a selling league and you can sell 16-17 homegrowns or 22 year "young dps" for way more than college players (in theory, at least) so MLS doesn't look to college anymore.

    college players could still be a good source of talent...EVEN DESPITE academies/homegrowns being a drain on the talent of college players....

    it is a matter of opportunity and college players are simply too far down the totem pole to get the attention, development opportunity and experience they need to DEVELOP into MLS players/stars.

    If MLS still thought they needed college players...you would see numerous new college players thrive in MLS in every season and become "stars" every year like you used to.....
     
  11. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I wouldn't expect most draft picks to be on the first team roster yet. I mean #1 draft pick Frankie Amaya is only 18 and #2, Said Haji, is 19.

    But since you ask, of the first ten draft picks:

    Frankie Amaya 21 minutes
    Santiago Patino 76
    Andre Shinyashiki 143
    Tajon Buchanan 38
    John Nelson 61
     
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  12. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    #537 adam tash, Apr 26, 2019
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2019
    1. why not? if players arent good enough for the first team roster...why have a draft?
    Would the nba have a draft if all of the players drafted were only good enough for the GLEAGUE???
    2. can you do this for the rest of the draft....?
    3 so only 1 out of the top 10 draft picks has played more than 90 minutes this season? is that really the case?
     
  13. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't know, why don't you do your own god-damn research for once instead of spouting off inaccurate facts and making people correct you?
     
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  14. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You really think a college player can step up to the professional game in less than 3 months?
     
  15. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    it has happened countless times in MLS history, so, yes, yes I do.

    but i find the question itself quite damning of the idea of having a draft.....
     
  16. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    1. find me one 2019 MLS draft pick that will actually make a significant impact and help a team win and make the playoffs and I will delete my bigsoccer account...in honor of your blind hatred of me.(hint: don't waste your time looking....he's not out there)
    2. a question is not a fact
    3. seems like when you have no pertinent response you resort to profanity and hatred:
    Frankie Amaya 21 minutes
    Siad Haji ZERO MINUTES
    Santiago Patino 76 WOW he actually has an assist!!!!!!!!!
    Callum Montgomery ZERO MINUTES
    Andre Shinyashiki 143
    Griffin Dorsey ZERO MINUTES
    daye st clair ZERO MINUTES
    sam junqua ZERO MINUTES
    Tajon Buchanan 38
    John Nelson 61

    So through 9 weeks of MLS this year ZERO Full 90s by any top 10 draft picks....

    please tell me why MLS has a draft again...it clearly has NO IMPACT on the field.
     
  17. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That was a different league.

    What's the benefit to MLS of not having a draft?
     
  18. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    what's the benefit of diners to tipping a waiter?
     
  19. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They get better service in anticipation of a tip. But what's that got to do with the price of bread?
     
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  20. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    2017 draft picks:
    1. Abu Danladi - 46 appearances for the Loons.
    2. Miles Robinson - started every Atlanta United match in 2019.
    3. Jonathan Lewis - NYCFC and USMNT "supersub"
    4. Jeremy Ebobisse - regular starter for Portland
    5. Lalas Abubakar - 34 appearances for the Crew
    6. Jackson Yueill - 41 appearances for San Jose
    7. Jake Nerwinski - 45 appearances for Vancouver
    8. Julian Gressel - 2018 MLS Rookie of the Year
    9. Niko Hansen - 38 appearances for Columbus

    That's not bad for players who cost their clubs nothing to train, develop and sign, other than a basic MLS salary while they got up to speed. Gressel for instance was on $92.5k at the start of 2018.
     
  21. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    having a draft is like arranged marriage.

    i prefer letting people choose who they want to be in bed with....everyone is happier in the end.
    robinson ebobisse yueill also had to wait 2-3 years to get any meaningful playing time....without being raliroaded onto an MLS team, they might've been able to sign with an MLS team that was willing to play them immediately...thereby greatly improving their chances of getting a mych bigger deal/transfer etc on their next contract and getting a better rookie deal as well.

    you seem to only care about the economic interests of MLS as a league whereas i am looking at this from a player development angle. THAT SAID, i think it is actually in MLS' best interests to look at it from a player development angle. there are still plenty of college players who are good enough for MLS.....MLS just wants to use academy homegrowns instead. developing college players and giving them a better trajectory will only serve MLS in the long run...even if it means - heaven forbid - those college players start with higher salaries than currently and have more autonomy on what MLS team they play for....

    College players are now surplus to the plans of most MLS teams and would be better served if they could negotiate their way into MLS on their own terms....more of them would stick and more of them would actually play if MLS teams had to bid for their services and make promises i.e. playing time....

    If MLS teams aren't willing to outbid another MLS team for their services, that MLS team didn't value that player in the first place. MLS teams shouldnt be allowed to hold the rights to players they have no plans for. it hurts college players to be 24years old before they even start playing in MLS, if at all...they dont have 2-3 years to waste "getting up to speed"....

    drafting players for 3 years from now....makes no sense i.e. parity. the draft has no impact on parity and competitiveness of MLS teams - which is the supposed point of that talent distribution mechanism.
     
  22. mschofield

    mschofield Member+

    May 16, 2000
    Berlin
    Club:
    Union Berlin
    Nat'l Team:
    Germany
    Which means? Clearly, to people who pay attention to the game, it means that the players are being considered and not seen as up to starting or even more time. Is there a player changing the fortunes of his club in this class, not at this point and it doesn't look as if it will happen.
    That's on the players though.
    I think you fundamental misunderstand what clubs do. they play the players most capable of getting them points. they determine who these players are in practice.
    Take Shinyashiki. he got a start for Colorado, and scored a goal in a sub app. Colorado clearly are very much aware he's around and what he can do. So why isn't he playing more? Because at this point he's seen as a player worth about 143 minutes of game time.
    All of your posts on this and similar topics come down to the same thing, you think managers make the wrong calls in player selection. In making this case, you dismiss the importance of practice, something actual footballers never do.
    If the draft class wants to play more, they have to earn it. End of.
    But showing that this years draft class, which was seen as subpar especially at the top of the class and especially with ready to play types, isn't playing is not proving the players are better than their managers are giving them credit for being.
    I gave you Vermes reasoning earlier, this was a crap class and it's a crap class because the best players are heading to academies and then through USL, where they have adjusted to a professional schedule years before college kids have made that transition. Vermes comment that college kids are usually a waste of space by June, as their bodies have never adjusted to the rigors of a full season before, makes a lot of sense.
     
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  23. Paul Berry

    Paul Berry Member+

    Notts County and NYCFC
    England
    Apr 18, 2015
    Nr Kingston NY
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Agreed, look at Patrick Mullins. Drafted in 2014 he's now at his fourth club and has never been able to hold down a starting place.

    Wherever Ebobisse had gone he'd have been unlikely to be a regular starter in his first season or so, not until he adapted to the pace and quality of MLS.

    Even without a draft he probably would have ended up playing at a USL affiliate or off the bench during his debut season.
     
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  24. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    he just played for the national team....and yet there are bundesliga players who are apparently not good enough for the national team...so which is it? these guys are good enough for MLS or they aren't. are ebobisse and lewis good enough for the bundesliga?

    if they aren't good enough for MLS there shouldn't be an MLS draft.

    your argument that these draft picks aren't good enough to play in MLS in their first year makes the idea of having a draft less logical....

    you are arguing somehow simultaneously that MLS should have a draft AND also that none of the players that MLS drafts are good enough to play right away in MLS...and that they need several years os easoning to even be able to play in the league.

    do you not see how those 2 views are at odds with each other???????????????
     
  25. adam tash

    adam tash Member+

    Jul 12, 2013
    you are putting words in my mouth.

    im saying that there shouldnt be a draft not that these draft picks should be playing more.

    can you read?
     

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