Abandoning "fairness" and other useless notions

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Karl K, Oct 10, 2002.

  1. Sachin

    Sachin New Member

    Jan 14, 2000
    La Norte
    Club:
    DC United
    When did he say this? I do remember him saying that if the World Cup were held in 2003, the roster would be significantly different, but that's no big shock, considering the number of players reaching the end of their international careers.

    Sachin
     
  2. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    Well, I looked in my archive of stories of the WC I had bookmarked, and couldn't find the quote. Some of the links are now dead.

    I'll look again. But even absent that, isn't it reasonable to infer that, if he said the line up would be different if held in 2003, that in fact he would have rather had a MUCH younger squad? And therefore, if he had his druthers, he WOULD have taken the younger talent with just one more year's of experience under his belt?

    In that case, I concede it isn't an admission of a mistake. Still, you don't think he regrets relying on Agoos?? Then I have some damp land in Florida for sale cheap.

    By the way, here are some actual Arena quotes I bookmarked and could call up.

    "No player is indispensable."
    —Bruce Arena, October 2000
    (For those who believe that getting Mastroeni was just SOOOOOOO critical to our success or that Clint Mathis was the Savior incarnate).

    Are you short of depth in the squad?
    "In most positions -- if everyone's healthy -- no, we're not. We've got some versatile midfielders -- like Landon Donovan -- who can also play up front. Maybe in the outside-back positions, we're a bit limited there."
    World Soccer interview. For those who don't believe there were depth problems at left back.

    United States coach Bruce Arena has a word for the critics of Claudio Reyna. He calls them "idiots."
    --Mike Woitalla's CNNSI world profile. (I put quotes around the word).

    For those "critics" -- you know who you are.
     
  3. diablodelsol

    diablodelsol Member+

    Jan 10, 2001
    New Jersey
    Karl,

    The quote you are looking for was in an SI article. Arena talked about it being a young mans game, although he didn't specifically reference any of the players. I believe the author (Wahl?) made the inference.
     
  4. Nutmeg

    Nutmeg Member+

    Aug 24, 1999

    Well, to quote your now infamous shirt, you are not guesing, you are second guessing.

    If this isn't the "woulda coulda shoulda" type argument that you just blasted somebody else for, I don't know what is.

    The fact is, when Bruce announced his lineup, he publicly stated he was very happy with the mix of players - both the experience of the vets and the youth of the squad.

    I for one am not going to jump overboard with you by assuming that his real message that in general, his players were "too old."


    You are giving yourself a LOT of leeway in your "too old" misquote by bringing up Agoos here. One player's terrible performance does not translate into an entire team of mistakes.

    I don't remember you standing up before the World Cup and declaring your opinion that Agoos needed a replacement. What alternatives did you point out? Who else would you have sent in place of Agoos?

    Fact is, up until the World Cup, Agoos had a pretty good year with the MNT not to mention the Earthquakes, and next to nobody was calling for his head. In fact, the prevailing opinion, the opinion that I never heard you argue against, was that Eddie Pope could offset the athletic deficiencies of Agoos, and that the US needed Agoos for his positional, organizational, and leadership qualities.

    You yourself said before the World Cup that if we did not have Reyna AND Mathis on the field, we would not be successful. So who are you railing against here?

    And it was you who single-handedly shot down any argument that was in favor of trying somebody other than Armas at DMid before the World Cup, an argument that in time proved to be right on the money.

    Again, who is this directed against? And what does it have to do with the discussion at hand? Except for a few radicals, most of us, the HUGE majority of us, realized that a healthy Reyna makes our team a better team.
     
  5. Noah Dahl

    Noah Dahl New Member

    Nov 1, 2001
    Pottersville
    Okay, sorry Karl. Obviously I did hit the dead end with you when you start attacking my posting skills?!!

    Add that to the tautology, the lame insults and I think my work here is complete.

    But the real clincher is when you said, in effect, "we know Bruce Arena makes mistakes because he has said so." THAT is classic.


    As an aside, in Karl's defense, I also recall Bruce saying something to the effect that the World Cup was a "young man's game" in response to questions about Agoos' mistakes at the World Cup. This was during the tournament.

    I think it's pretty special if Bruce indeed said this --effectively pushing all blame off on a single player, the real team captain, when it was Bruce's fault to even put him out there in the first place.
     
  6. flanoverseas

    flanoverseas New Member

    Mar 2, 2002
    Xandria
    The real mistake was putting Berhalter out there against Germany. But how was he to know that GB had banged Dallas' daughter*. GB probably didn't even know that Dallas knew.



    *Can't think of any other reason for Dallas' treatment.
     
  7. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    Huh?? Do you KNOW what second guessing really is?? Look it up in the dictionary.

    Also, see if you can't go slow and read carefully. I was inferring what Bruce Arena likely believes NOW he WOULD have done in retrospect. It's this concept called "learning." Try it some time.

    I bet he won't make the mistake of putting a 32 year old defender, no matter how smart or experienced, if that defender is too slow to keep pace with the international tempo.

    Geez, what's he going to say INSTEAD of that? "We have a problematic mix of geezers and kids just out of diapers"? Gimme a break. You're so big on quotes, why do you try to make the distinction between the ones that have a some significance and maybe a little bite to them, and the ones that are just media coachspeak?

    Good for you. Don't tear your rotator cuff patting yourself on the back.

    Leeway? ME?? Did I say, or even infer, that "one person's performance does not translate to an entire team of mistakes?" As far as falling victim to too much "leeway," I think I could learn a thing or two from you.

    Huh??? This is a red herring. My point here was not to slam Agoos, but to point out that Arena is human and makes mistakes and maybe even admits them.

    Again, a red herring.

    What I did SAY was that I believed Reyna and Mathis were the two players who you could probably term indispensable. About that I was incorrect. My only measure of success for the USMNT was that we score, win a game, and play good soccer. Beyond that, I thought anything was gravy. Life is good when the thing you love exceeds expectations.

    You really want to rehash this again? Let me refresh your memory.

    My arguments were WAY subtler than that. First, and foremost, I objected to the view, asserted by many, that Armas was not an international level player, not skilled, didn't add to the attack, and yada yada yada.

    Second, I never said we shouldn't try anyone else at the position -- that is about as useless a notion as expected a national team coach to be fair.

    My view was that were you to put others in that position, there would be a series of tradeoffs -- there might be different things added to the mix. As a result, the team wouldn't necessarily be SOOOOO much better with, say, Mulrooney or Mastroeni. In fact, there might be tradeoffs that would be less desirable.

    Rest easy...that Reyna quote was not directed at you.

    Oh, and congratulations of the quote "gotcha." We all have to get our jollies somehow.
     
  8. nobody

    nobody Member+

    Jun 20, 2000
    Just wanna add that yeah, there was a lot of support for Agoos before the cup, but there were also many detractors who saw him as a glaring weak spot. Personally, I've always thought Agoos was crap.

    Of course, I was wrong about plenty of other stuff, so it all comes out in the wash.

    Really, that's the bottom line here. Everybody, Bruce included, is sometimes right, sometimes wrong. Lucky for us, Bruce ended up being right more than wrong when it counted most.

    I also think, if I remember correctly which is a big if, that Bruce made the comment about youth while some of the younger guys like Beasley in particular were still on the bubble with Donovan's status as a starter up in the air. By the time the World Cup came round Bruce gambled on the kids and it paid off. Now, defense is another story.
     
  9. Nutmeg

    Nutmeg Member+

    Aug 24, 1999
    Cut the personal crap, Karl

    Yes I do. Examples abound, from ALL angles.

    No, that is not what you did. You attributed a direct quote to somebody who never said it. And you do this on the SAME page where you just gave Noah Dahl the following instructions, "Don't put words in my mouth -- the ones out of yours are awful enough."

    Do as I say, not as I do?

    Your argument is based on a false premise - a quote never given by Arena - so you resort to a more personal attack. Another quote from you in your argument against Noah Dahl:
    So, lemme see, what grade did you get in debating. If it was a C, you were the victim of grade inflation.


    Good bet, and finally a point worth discussing. Your opinion well stated, without all the personal garbage you have been sneaking into your arguments in this thread.


    Um, yeah, after four years of reading and listening to Bruce Arena, if there is one thing I can say he WILL do, it is that we will call it like he sees it.

    Again, just because somebody doesn't agree with your point of view - and says so - Karl, you don't need to resort to personal shots. It goes back to the poor debating techniques argument you made earlier. I'm not kicking your kid, I am disagreeing with your point of view.

    You used Agoos as an example of your argument that Arena said his lineup was "too old." An argument that really doesn't have any premise, as discussed earlier.

    Yes he has, but he didn't this time. Not in the scenario you present.

    This isn't about getting my jollies. This is about not attributing words to those who have never spoken them, something you yourself ask not be done. It isn't personal, I am not attacking you. If Arena had said that his players were "too old," it would have been interesting.

    He didn't.

    The importance of age and International Soccer is a point of view YOU are trying to perpetuate, and you are trying to build your argument by using a false quote from Arena as a backup.
     
  10. kyledane

    kyledane Member

    Jan 28, 2000
    Near San Francisco
    Not that I don't want to get involved in the lovely pissing contest that this thread has devolved into, but I want to follow up on the follow up to my last post here. So here goes:

    Right and I agree that he has done this, to the best of his ability. I think he passed over a few guys that had MLS success that he shouldn't have, but most players that earned a shot got one, at least in camp. I'd simply state that if you have an even larger camp or program, then more players can earn their way into camp. I'd like to see that.

    And here is where my B team concept would come in very handy, by making those minutes far less precious. Any guys who haven't made an immediate impact in camp would still have a chance to play their way into the squad in B team action, where the coaches would assess their ability to adjust their games to the international level.

    As you were, you may resume the sniping and namecalling.
     
  11. StingRay37

    StingRay37 Member

    Dec 4, 2000
    North Carolina
    For the record, I would like to say that I too think agoos is crap, and before the cup I said that he would be the 2002 version of Burns only 10x worse.

    Funny thing is, some people had the audacity to tell me I was a moron and how solid and good of a leader agoos was. :rolleyes:
     
  12. Nutmeg

    Nutmeg Member+

    Aug 24, 1999
    In a chat that took place on November 10, 2000, Arena addressed this need (from USAToday):

    "Hanover, PA: What are future plans for "B" team matches? Do you think you can develop a system to get some younger players more experience this way to make the pool even deeper than it is now? Thanks and good luck next week.

    Bruce Arena: I'm hopeful that will be the case in the next year. I've made this point to U.S. Soccer, and I believe with the new leadership in the organization, specifically Dan Flynn, that this need will be addressed."
     
  13. lmorin

    lmorin Member+

    Mar 29, 2000
    New Hampshire
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This has, by and large, been an interesting and provocative thread. Good for you, Karl. One thing that hasn't been fully dealt with concerns the full context in which a head coach makes decisions about players. Not only does he have the real game situations (friendlies and not-so-friendlies), but he has the pre-game camp, live club games, and video tape of club games. In addition, the head coach has his assistant(s) who are certain to have a somewhat different perspective on individual players. In Arena's case, the assistants have, on occasion, included people such as Bob Bradley of the Fire. Arena also has access to a telephone, and I am willing to bet that he uses it for consultation with various MLS and other coaches concerning their thoughts about individual players. I would really like to know how much this sort of correspondence occurs. Regardless, all that information is put into the big mixer from which the players are pulled for a particular game. In many ways, what we see on the game day tube is the smallest piece of the entire process. Sure, selection mistakes have been made (Albright being the classic), but personally, I think Arena did a fabulous job 1) evaluating a large number of players; 2) getting us to the WC; 3) putting a quality team on the WC field; and 4) getting the best of play out of the individuals and the team as a whole. But, that's what I expect of ANY head coach of the USMNT.
     
  14. Chester FC

    Chester FC New Member

    Jul 19, 2001
    Great post, Imorin.

    Basically, you're saying (and please correct me) that Arena employs a fair selection process; reviewing a number of data points and parameters and then coming to an informed decision whether or not the player fits in the team tactically and personnally.

    The problem is that only a couple of the parameters are obvious to the BS public (call ups, club performance and UNMT games played). The remaining data are black holes on some level, so people get pissed when their player gets dumped.
     

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