A view on development....

Discussion in 'USA Men: News & Analysis' started by Karl K, Sep 7, 2002.

  1. Andy_B

    Andy_B Member+

    Feb 2, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree with this assessment.

    I chose my words poorly because I could care less, whether it be basketball or soccer, how "skillful" a player is. I only care about who is the best/better player.

    Skill makes up just a single part of the whole player The other parts being endurance, speed, strength, balance, quickness, vision, mental strength, determination, quickness of thought, etc etc etc.

    Skill alone means nothing to me, so when I say the European b-ball players (in general) are way behind NBA players (remember that most of the best Europeans are in the NBA already), I am talking from a total player standpoint.

    I apologize for the confusion.

    Andy
     
  2. Nutmeg

    Nutmeg Member+

    Aug 24, 1999
    Well, since we are talking about development, the European professional environment can be fairly compared to NCAA basketball. Your statement above can also be attributed to the huge majority of college basketball players. The best ones move on to the NBA, the rest do not.

    And what the scout that Karl quoted at the beginning of this thread said, I think is true. Europe is way ahead in the game of developing players with fundamental skills. And more and more, when you look at the total number of players in European pro leagues and compare those numbers with the number of players in College Basketball, it appears that Europe is starting to develop more NBA players, percentage-wise, than even the NCAA.

    Much of that has to do with the solid fundamental coaching they receive in their development.
     
  3. kb

    kb New Member

    Nov 23, 1998
    Boston, MA
    But when you compare the average game attendence of an indoor sport with that of an outdoor sport you are comparing apples and oranges.

    By your comparision MLS would be almost equal in popularity to the NBA since the per game attendence is 15,000 in MLS vs 16,000-17,000 in the NBA. Unfortunately they play 1/3 the games, and 1/3 the ticket price. So economically they don't even come close.

    I would think the European basketball leagues like Italy or Spain would at least be equal to MLS in terms of the economic picture OVER THE LONG TERM (As opposed to during this economic downturn .. a similar downturn here might snuff out the MLS entirely)

    I am not sure of the average salary of these leagues but I know historically the Tony Kukoc's, Dino Radja, Oscar Schmit's, made over a million/year. I know they were able to sign the top overall pick away from the NBA one year (Danny Ferry - regardless of the bust he became) ... I await the day when the MLS can attract/sign the (reputed) best young player in the world

    FWIW, you kinda make my original point that the US loss in the worlds does not prove that european methods of teaching, training and development are
    superior

    What does it tell you if a 7 year old league like MLS, full of COLLEGE players is closer to the likes of Serie A, than 30+ year old leagues, undoubtably using the european professional development techniques, are to the NBA
     
  4. Andy_B

    Andy_B Member+

    Feb 2, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I was not comparing MLS to NBA. I was comparing MLS to European basketball leagues where the schedules and ticket prices are very similar.

    This arguement only holds water when the indoor league is playing to a high percentage of their capacity.

    There is a VERY good reason why the highest attended basketball league in the world out side of the NBA has all of the arenas 12,000 and under.

    This entire arguement is hard to work with because you are comparing an amatuer environment with a professional environment.

    Comparing 27 year adult professional athletes at their peak with under 20 year old college kids leaving their home for the first time does not float with me.

    I could counter this with NUMEROUS examples of American players who never got within 12 miles of playing in an NBA game going overseas and being stars of their teams.

    My memory is very shaky concerning Ferry. I thought he went to play in Italy (Benneton?) because he did not want to play with the team that drafted him (Clippers), not because he thought that Italy would be a better place to play in.

    Basically, I thought he used the Italian league and played there for one year until the rights on him were removed. Like I said, I could be misremembering this.

    Andy
     
  5. tpm

    tpm New Member

    Sep 28, 2000
    Long Beach, CA
    But when you're talking about "development", you should care alot about skills. When you get to a professional level in most any sport, almost every athlete will possess an elite level of those physical attributes you mention, it is the development of the skills to actually play the game that is key to ultimate success or failure at the professional level. IMO, the physical prowess has trumped skills in American sports over the past decade largely due, again IMO, to the proliferation of steroids, andro, creatine and multiple other chemical aids. Fortunately, I can't ever see this being the case to (that extent at least) in the game of soccer.

    That brings us back to skills and, as we are all aware, if you don't learn the foot skills early, you will be limited in your ultimate development regardless of how great an athlete you are (i.e. no Hakeem-like success stories in soccer). Soccer also does not really allow the degree of specialization that other American sports do, so skills are paramount. Regarding soccer development here in the USA, I completely agree that we will produce better and better players as more of our better athletes stick with soccer.
     
  6. kb

    kb New Member

    Nov 23, 1998
    Boston, MA
    No you are correct, there was definitely more to it than just a bidding war...but to even be considered says something



    my previous quote:
    "I am not sure of the average salary of these leagues but I know historically the Tony Kukoc's, Dino Radja, Oscar Schmit's, made over a million/year.

    my point on this was more that these teams are capable of giving reasonably impressive salaries...i suppose MLS has in the past too, although they seemed to have move away from that practice now
     
  7. Andy_B

    Andy_B Member+

    Feb 2, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For some reason I remember reading once that Nial Quinn did not grow up playing soccer.

    Anyone else remember this?

    You obviously did not read the list I made if you think everything I mentioned dealt with pure physicallity.

    Vision, mental strength, determination, quickness of thought often separate the superstars from the good pro player.



    Andy
     
  8. moorland

    moorland Member

    Oct 11, 1999
    Aliso Viejo CA

    Disagree on your last two points here.

    The true players are born with it. Did somebdy teach a Maradonna how to dribble past 6 English players or Roberto Carlos to defy the laws of physics with his free kicks. Obviously you can't pluck a third grader out of school and teach him to be a world class soccer player they are born with it, just like Jordan, Montana and Gretzky.

    You could say I'm just talking about the skilled positions that you also need piano-carriers and you can teach them skills. But not really, teaching is a dangerous word, when I hear it I think kids lined up behind one another in repetitiive drills and that is not where or how kids develop skills. Kids develop skills by playing in highly skilled games either against older kids or more developed kids and they see a move or a trap or a shot or a tackle that they have never seen before and just like those kids at the X-Games they will go out and try it the next chance they get. And this is why street soccer is so important is because they won't get pulled from the game or yelled at if they try something different.

    Spain lacking great athletes is just absurd. What country wouldn't take Joaquin, Morrientes and Raul as their front three or Mendieta covering every blade of grass because they weren't athletic enough. Give me skill and guile versus decathletes any time. Spain was robbed by bad referee's from developing countries.

    Now if you said their coach needs a better anti-persperant and a Spainish Tony Robbins telling them "YOU CAN DO IT" because they are lacking in self-confidence then I'd agree with you.
     
  9. Mr. Cam

    Mr. Cam Red Card

    Jun 28, 2001
    Which player; Joaquin, Morrientes, or Raul has the "ATHLETIC" talent to play in the NFL???

    Which player; Joaquin, Morrientes, or Raul has the "ATHLETIC" talent of Jordan???
     
  10. Nutmeg

    Nutmeg Member+

    Aug 24, 1999
    Well, that comparison seems to be floating with a lot of NBA scouts whose job it is to compare NCAA kids with professionally developed kids. Increasingly, they are finding that the kids from Pro Leagues in Europe and elsewhere in the world are the better option. It's no more difficult than comparing the development of American Soccer players in professional environments vs. college soccer.

    The "27 year old athletes at their peak" argument is a red herring. I am comparing the YOUNG players in professional leagues in Europe and elsewhere who have realistic aspirations of making it to the NBA. More and more, that is starting to happen. A few names come immediately to mind - Dirk Nowitski of the Dallas Mavericks, Tony Parker of the San Antonio Spurs, Predrag Stojakovic and Hidayet Turkoglu of the Sacramento Kings, and I could go on and on and on.

    In fact, I would guess that the majority of rosters in the NBA have players on their roster developed in European or Worldwide Professional Basketball leagues. These are young kids not just "leaving home for the first time," but leaving their COUNTRY and CONTINENT for the first time - about the same age as a player coming out of the NCAA's.

    The American Basketball player coming from either high school OR the NCAA will be competing with professionally developed players from around the world for roster spots in the NBA. In 2002, 5 of the top 16 picks, including pick #1, went to Professionally Developed players.

    So not only is a comparison between the NCAA's and European basketball leagues, in the context of development, a fair comparison - it is probably the most useful as well.

    When you make that comparison you can then track back to the quote Karl presented at the beginning of this thread and usefully compare the difference between the developmental practices of Europe against those of the NCAA. The Houston Scout did, and is finding that the young Europeans are far ahead of young Americans in fundamental basketball skills. In turn, these players with solid fundamentals are coming to the NBA and developing into some of the league's top stars. This will continue to happen more and more every year.

    So, I believe this should serve as a model for young soccer players who truly have aspirations of making soccer their life work. Get in a pro environment as early as you can. Get the fundamentals down. If you are not ready to make that commitment at the age of 15, 16, or 17, you still have collegiate soccer as an option, but you probably will not develop as quickly as you might have otherwise. There are a lot of exceptions to this rule, but the rule is still being proven in a myriad of sports around the world. Oh, and whenever you get the chance - play as much soccer as you possibly can AWAY from the eyes and pressure of an organized team.
     
  11. Nutmeg

    Nutmeg Member+

    Aug 24, 1999


    Yes, somebody did teach Diego his dribbling skills. Diego did. He did it as a kid, and improved as a pro. As I've argued all along in this thread, the best players in the world will be a combination of athleticism, sound fundamentals, the work ethic to push oneself to be better day after day after day, and a combination of intangibles too numerous to list here. The best players in the world will also have gotten excellent training, then applied that training in just about every situation - organized or "street soccer" - they play in.

    Give me both, and I will beat you.
     
  12. Andy_B

    Andy_B Member+

    Feb 2, 1999
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is not the black and white issue that the BS myth makers are trying to create.

    For every "professional environment" success story out there, there is a Jason Moore, a Seth Trembly, a Jovan Kirovski and many many more who would have benefitted by playing extended years in college ball.

    On the reverse side, Reyna pushing off Europe until he was ready was obviously the correct decision for him.

    Clint might never be the player he is today if he went to Europe early because he simply was not ready physically nor mentally.

    Thank god Landon made the decision to at least come back to a friendly professional environment because he was quickly heading down the Kirovski spiral of death path.

    I will agree to a certain extent that a professional environment for an 18 year should be better, but that does not hold true for every person and I could argue that a bad professional environment (one where the player never gets out of the reserves) is worse than college soccer.

    Andy
     
  13. Nutmeg

    Nutmeg Member+

    Aug 24, 1999
    I guess I did not word my belief well enough. I see college soccer PLUS the option of Professional Development as the best of both worlds for aspiring young US Soccer Players. Basically, the more options, the more better.

    But when a young player is good enough and committed enough to make the leap to a professional environment, they should do so, providing that the opportunity is there for them to develop at the right pace in the right organization. I agree that this can be a risky move, but for the best young players, it will more likely be the right one.

    When MLS matures enough financially, reserve squads will be the right place for the best young US talent. That will not happen until a team in the league has the incentive to develop young players for profit as they improve. That incentive largely does not exist right now, and is one of the major drawbacks of jumping the amateur ship for young players right now. With little or no incentive to take the time to develop a Trembly, Moore, or Jamar Beasley, teams have to focus on the "now" and cannot afford to waste precious roster spots on players who may or may not pan out in the long run.
     
  14. Bajoro

    Bajoro Member+

    Sep 10, 2000
    The Inland Empire
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I just wanted to chip in this quick thought --

    The more options for players also means the more competition by the organizations. My hope is that as developmental teams ... uh, develop, the NCAA will be motivated to change some of its silly rules that restrict number of games and practice sessions, and adapt FIFA rules of the game. Perhaps enough bright young talent opting out of the NCAA for reasons relating to their potential development might be harsh, but good medicine for the NCAA.
     
  15. Nutmeg

    Nutmeg Member+

    Aug 24, 1999
    I doubt that as anything matures on the Pro side, the NCAA will see it as competition. NCAA Men's soccer has little incentive to grow or be competitive with its professional counterpart. If more young players choose professional soccer over college soccer, so what? The attitude I perceive from the NCAA is that they could take or leave Men's Soccer and not think twice about it.
     
  16. Bajoro

    Bajoro Member+

    Sep 10, 2000
    The Inland Empire
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You may be right about that, unfortunately.

    But perhaps there are some people who would be affected by the competition for players, and therefore perhaps agents of change. The college soccer coaches, for example. Perhaps some athletic directors.

    That being said, I can't understand how college coaches have allowed the bastardized rules to have existed to long. :(
     
  17. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    Well, it's a cushy job, few care about short or long term results -- either winning championships or developing professional players.

    Meanwhile, if I am a bona fide NBA or NFL prospect out of high school, it's pretty easy to decide which schools I am going to attend.

    As for soccer, well, if a dozen top kids sign pro contracts, that still leaves another two dozen or so top prospects for the elite programs -- Indiana, UCLA, Virginia -- to pick over.

    In the end, I think Jerry Yeagley, for example, will not give a hoot whether THIS pro prospect or THAT pro prospect signs with him -- as long as he signs ENOUGH talent that will get HIS team in a position to win the NCAA's, which, in the REAL world of soccer, are pretty meaningless, aside from the anciallary psycholgical benefits they provide to players, coaches, and some alumni.
     
  18. diablodelsol

    diablodelsol Member+

    Jan 10, 2001
    New Jersey
    Jordan - outstanding basketball player, horrible professional baseball player, slightly above average amatuer golfer

    The other three: outstanding soccer players, would probably hit like girls (not unlike Jordan), I have no basis to judge their golf games.

    Mr. Cam - does Jordan have the athletic talent to play in the NFL? Hell no.
     
  19. Elizabeth

    Elizabeth New Member

    Apr 22, 2002
    Columbus, Ohio
    It's timely you posted this...I just ahd a discussion with a soccer sportswriter ont his topic.

    Basketball greats were pick-up jungle ball kids. They went out and did it day in and out....no intervention. This generation started the organized play of club year round..like soccer is here.

    it's a mistake. Too much coaching and too much structure is bad for soccer. it takes TOOO much $$$$$ and a lot of talent never gets seen or developed. Maybe in basketball...there is scholarship dollars for kids...but not in soccer.
     
  20. Martin Fischer

    Martin Fischer Member+

    Feb 23, 1999
    Kampala. Uganda
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    When I think of athletic ability, golf and baseball are not relevant. They are games that depend on skill and very little -- in the case of golf none -- on athletic ability.
     
  21. flanoverseas

    flanoverseas New Member

    Mar 2, 2002
    Xandria
    You're definitely right that they take less athletic ability, far less. But one of the things that is making Tiger 'The Golfer' is his dedication to fitness, and other golfers are following his lead.

    Plus you have to be in shape to walk 18 holes ;)
     
  22. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    He probably could have been a decent cornerback/safety or wide receiver in the NFL, especially with those huge hands of his, along with his speed, strength, and jumping ability. But his career would have been a lot shorter.

    Few field players/hitters above 6'4" are successful in professional baseball. (Pitchers are a different story). The few who stick out as exceptional tall players were Frank Howard, at 6'7", Gene Conley who was 6'6" , Dave Winfield at 6'6" and, of course, Mark McGwire, who was "bordeline" at 6'5".

    The prototypical body type for a today's power hitter is Sammy Sosa (6'0", 220), Barry Bonds, (6'2", 228), Jason Giambi (6'3", 225). For infielder types who can hit with power but must be agile, Cal Ripken (6"4", 220) or Mike Schmidt 6"2', 205) is about as big as it can get.

    Swinging a bat requires the ability to make a compact arc with the bat quickly through the strike zone. Long-armed players -- i.e., taller players -- tend to have long loping swings, which are ineffective.
     
  23. Karl K

    Karl K Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    Suburban Chicago
    Well, there's no question that Tiger Woods is a "great athlete", though he probably is the exception rather than the rule in the game of golf.

    In baseball, there have been quite a few outstanding athletes, obviously. Mike Schmidt was an exceptionally agile and graceful player in his day, to go along with his power. Ryne Sandberg was an all-state football player, and could have had his pick of college scholarships. And, of course, there was Willie Mays, who might have been the greatest "athlete" to play the game.

    I suppose you can make the argument that since "non-athletic types" have had some success in the game, that therefore being athletic is not a necessary condition to being successful. But I'd say that in professional baseball today, and mostly in the past, there are, and have been, a larger proportion of athletes than non-athletes.
     
  24. Craig P

    Craig P BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 26, 1999
    Eastern MA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The example of other sports should tend to discourage that thought. Baseball = aluminum bats; basketball = shorter 3-pt, shorter game, different defensive rules until last year when the NBA changed; hockey = full face protection, no fighting, automatic icing, different rink configuration.

    In hockey, the main advantage that college sees as compared to major juniors is that the lighter schedule in games (limited to 34 regular season plus tournaments, with a couple of variables) means more practice time and hence more skill refinement.
     
  25. Dsocc

    Dsocc Member

    Feb 13, 2002
    Interesting thread. I still maintain our women are among the world's best because women's soccer garners the largest share of top US women's athletes. Men's soccer lags well behind because American football is more economically attractive for skill position athletes.
     

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