NSR: A gun on Every Corner: Discuss the NRA, Gun Ownership and All Those Non-Mass Shootings..

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by dapip, Feb 20, 2015.

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Do we need more strict gun laws?

  1. Repeal the second baby!

    54 vote(s)
    51.4%
  2. We need better mental healthcare..

    38 vote(s)
    36.2%
  3. A discussion on the topic would be interesting..

    29 vote(s)
    27.6%
  4. That's Liberul talk for them to take may gunz!

    7 vote(s)
    6.7%
  5. You can pry my gun from my cold dead hands..

    15 vote(s)
    14.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. ToasterLeavins

    Mar 25, 2003
    NJ USA
    Club:
    Everton FC
    I'm fine with open carry going away.

    The misfire/lack of understand here is that the position that firearms and ammunition should be locked up and kept separate in your own home is reasonable. It's a non-starter.

    A huge portion of firearm owners consider self defense one of the key elements of owning a firearm, there's literally no point to owning a firearm for self defense and keeping your ammunition locked and separate from your firearm.

    I know people in this forum don't consider that a valid reason to own a firearm and like to make fun of people who do but good luck telling the vast majority of gun owners they have to keep their ammo separate and locked, in their own home. Not. Gonna. Happen.

    Not to mention how the hell would you enforce that? It's ridiculous.

    How about massively increasing the sentences for illegal possession of a firearm? And no early release?

    That would do way more imo.
     
  2. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Which is actually part of the problem. Very few of the people that get guns for "self defense" actually need it for that purpose. It is far more likely that the firearm will sit in the bedside drawer unused and collecting dust, be used by someone in the household on themselves, or someone else (either accidentally or intentionally), or end up lost or stolen than it would be used in self defense.

    Many Western countries that allow gun ownership include home inspections as part of their licensing and re-licensing process. Obviously that is just point in time and only validates that the weapon is properly stored at the time the inspection happens, but, for the most part, people will keep them properly stored after the inspection as well. For the people that do take the weapons out of the lock box/locker after the inspection and store the weapon in an unsafe manner, the law would be "enforced" after the fact and would prevent that person from owning a weapon in the future. As an example, a person that failed to store their weapon safely and that weapon was accidentally discharged by a child would then have their licensed revoked and be unable to possess firearms .(either permanently, or following a period of time that included retraining).

    This would actually have little to no impact on illegal possession of a firearm. There have been quite a few studies showing that mandatory minimums, lengthening sentences, increasing misdemeanors to felonies, etc, etc, do not have a statistically significant impact upon the associated crime's rate. The only impact they have is the number of people that you have in prison.
     
  3. ToasterLeavins

    Mar 25, 2003
    NJ USA
    Club:
    Everton FC
    Do you have any links to studies that specifically looked at illegal firearm possession/sentencing and re-offending?

    There's a huge difference between someone getting thirty years for marijuana possession due to three strikes and someone getting 30 years for armed robbery.

    One is one hundred percent justifiable imo and one is not.
     
  4. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #2129 Yoshou, Jul 11, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2017
    It's an across the board thing and something that has been well documented. Most studies show that when a person considers committing a crime, the amount of time that they are to serve isn't a factor in determining if they will commit the crime or not. In many cases, whether they are going to get caught or not isn't even a factor, or is something that they are willing to accept.

    Take the death penalty as an example, states with the death penalty have, on average, a higher murder rate than those that don't and changes in murder rates between death penalty states and non-death penalty states are roughly the same. If the death penalty was a deterrent you would expect it to be the opposite.

    Another example is "Three strikes your out", which hasn't necessarily had an impact on crime rates. Studies are mixed on that one since there has been a steep decline in violent crime since the 90s that corresponds with the implementation of "Three strikes" laws and initial studies creditted that drop to "Three strikes" laws. However, more recent studies note that the steep declines in violent crime is across the board in all states and not just the ones that have "Three strikes" laws, which would indicate that other factors that has driven the steep decline and not the "Three strikes" laws.

    I'm also curious as to why you think that there is a difference between a person getting 30 years for marijuana possession due to three strikes and someone getting 30 years for armed robbery and what that has to do with deterrence. I'm guessing you are noting the "unfairness" of the 30 years for the relatively minor marijuana possession vs. the 30 years for the more serious armed robbery, but I don't see how that is a factor in the discussion here.
     
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  5. VincitOmniaVeritas

    Jul 18, 2015
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Real Madrid

    FBI will check all crimes prosecuted at the federal level as well as all crimes prosecuted at the state level. Virginia includes crimes prosecuted at the state level in VA and many other states, but not every state makes this information readily available.

    These will help answer your questions much faster than I can.

    https://www.atf.gov/firearms/identify-prohibited-persons

    http://smartgunlaws.org/gun-laws/policy-areas/background-checks/categories-of-prohibited-people/
     
  6. VincitOmniaVeritas

    Jul 18, 2015
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    1. If you are talking about those who wish to carry their firearms for self defense, yes.

    2. Reporting laws would be very helpful, and should be one of the easier pieces of gun control legislation to enact. One downside, even with no Federal law and only a handful of state laws on reporting currently, individuals still falsely report firearms stolen. This is an easy way to move a firearm between a lawful owner and one who is not. However, the positives or reporting laws do outweigh the negatives.

    3. We will agree to disagree. Keeping your loaded magazine separate from your sidearm goes against logic and is not something anyone with basic carry training would entertain. For those with multiple firearms, utilizing a safe or locked room is an easy way to protect your family/roommates and firearms. Keeping the boxes of ammo separate from the guns will not prevent the adults/owners from committing suicide. It would be more of a deterrent for kids and accidental discharges.

    Suicides and mental health should get much more attention on both sides of the gun debate. I was once optimistic that we could get something done to expand mental health resources. Recently, not so much.

    4. Yes. Less so for those who buy firearms multiple times a year, more for the first time gun buyer or one who hasn't bought a firearm in a certain amount of time.
     
  7. VincitOmniaVeritas

    Jul 18, 2015
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Very. FYI the key word of that sentence is "storage".
     
  8. VincitOmniaVeritas

    Jul 18, 2015
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Unlike most discussions about firearms (especially in forums) I feel like I can discuss this issue with most of the posters here without the conversations turning into a shouting match or a dick measuring contest.

    I wouldn't categorize the majority of them as "know nothings". Although after a few posts it becomes evident who does not have experience with firearms and carrying them.

    Different discussion, but I would be more concerned defending the 1st, 4th and 5th amendments than repealing the 2nd.
     
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  9. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I can tell you without looking at any stats that the Black and Latino population in prison would increase.
     
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  10. soccernutter

    soccernutter Moderator
    Staff Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    Aug 22, 2001
    Near the mountains.
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is part of the issue that many have with use on the greater restriction side - repealing the 2nd is a means to banning all guns. I find that argument to be incredibly stupid. While I would be happy to have all guns banned, I also know there are a significant number of responsible gun owners out there, and that we have a gun culture in this country which would make banning guns almost impossible. Removing the 2nd would allow for greater ability to pass laws of prevention/safety.
     
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  11. dapip

    dapip Member+

    Sep 5, 2003
    South Florida
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    1. If you're a hunter that can't hit a target, what is the point on having a gun?

    2. So there are loopholes. Is there any law without one?

    3. So some/many lives are saved. There are 20k suicides with guns per year in the US, I would say that with stricter regulations we can make a dent.

    4. How many people has more than one firearm? How many people buys multiple times every year? You are focusing on the downsides for a smaller section of the population, of which, I venture to say, probably most can do just fine owning 5 instead of 20 rifles.
     
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  12. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    1. There are over 300 million guns in the US.
    2. Only 30% of the 116.7 million household's in the US have a gun owner
    3. 300M/(116.7M * .3 ) = 8.6 guns per gun owning household
     
  13. VincitOmniaVeritas

    Jul 18, 2015
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    #2138 VincitOmniaVeritas, Jul 12, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2017
    1. What would the requirement be, 5 moa? Sub moa? How accurate should they be in order to maintain possession of their firearms? I'm not too worried about how accurate or not hunters and sport shooters are. If they miss, they miss. If they miss and hit somebody, ones accuracy wouldn't be scrutinized ones common sense would be. A test where you must display you still know proper firearms handling and manipulation would be better than an accuracy challenge. Making an accuracy requirement would weed out many who have disabilities, yet still can handle and store firearms safely. Conversely it may not be ideal to weed out those with dementia, schizophrenia or another mental illness if they can display basic marksmanship.

    2. Probably one or two somewhere out there, but I haven't found them.

    3. Yep, and along with mental health it is frequently ignored in the debate by both sides. White male politicians haven't realized yet that middle aged white men make up the majority of suicides.

    4. Not sure of the percentage, but I would guess half or more of the people who own a firearm, own multiple. Maybe I am wrong, but looking at the background check data, I can't believe everyone is a first time buyer. Between November 1998 and June 2017 we have had 265,818,267 NICS background checks. There were 1,901,786 last month and the highest month I see was December of 2015 with 3,314,594 NICS checks. Remember, one background check covers one transaction, so it could be one firearm or ten for each background check.


    ETA: https://www.fbi.gov/file-repository/nics_firearm_checks_-_month_year.pdf/view
     
  14. dapip

    dapip Member+

    Sep 5, 2003
    South Florida
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    IIRC, ownership of multiple guns was very concentrated, like just a few million people...

    Here it is:

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2016/09/22/study-guns-owners-violence/90858752/

    The super owners consisted of an estimated 7.7 million Americans and owned between eight and 140 guns each. Nearly half of gun owners owned just one or two guns. Those owners merit further study to try to bring down the nation’s suicide rate, Azrael said

    More than half of all suicides in the USA – or about 21,000 a year – are committed with a firearm, according to the CDC.
     
  15. dapip

    dapip Member+

    Sep 5, 2003
    South Florida
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    2, Don't let perfection be the enemy of good.

    1 and 3. I really can't see why somebody with a more than mild mental illness and certain disabilities should be able to own a gun. Preventing a good portion of the 20k gun suicides boils down in big percentage to reducing gun availability. Yes, we need to address several health crisis in our country too, but we also need to acknowledge how efficient guns are for committing suicide.

    4. About 8 million people owns half the guns in the country. Why would they need more?
     
  16. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    What is your definition of "mild mental illness", where do you draw the line where someone who has a mental illness is allowed to own a gun and a where they aren't?

    Why does any person who has a collection of something need more? Mostly because that is what they collect..
     
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  17. dapip

    dapip Member+

    Sep 5, 2003
    South Florida
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    This is NOT mild mental illness... And probably does not count as a collection...

    http://www.newsweek.com/how-one-man-south-carolina-hoarded-roughly-5000-guns-401018


    [​IMG]
    As sheriff’s investigators threaded past the battered cars, cast-off tires and rusted farm equipment cluttering Brent Nicholson’s front yard, there was no hint of the sinister stockpile hidden behind his windowless front door.

    Inside, the guns were everywhere: rifles and shotguns piled in the living room, halls and bedrooms; handguns littering tables and countertops. Outside, when they rolled up the door on the pre-fab metal garage, more arms spilled out at their feet.

    “This has completely changed our definition of an ass-load of guns,” said Chesterfield County Sheriff Jay Brooks. Six weeks after the discovery, officers are still cataloging the weapons, many of which have proved stolen, and the final tally is expected to be close to 5,000. “I don’t know if there’s ever been (a seizure) this big anywhere before,” Brooks says.
     
  18. ToasterLeavins

    Mar 25, 2003
    NJ USA
    Club:
    Everton FC

    I could not care less about this.

    If you use a gun to rob someone, you should be locked up and kept off the streets for a long, long time. I don't care what race you are. If this is a controversial statement, I'm okay with it.

    You know, punish people who commit crimes with guns, while not punishing people who don't?
     
  19. Yoshou

    Yoshou Fan of the CCL Champ

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The article says that most of the guns were stolen.. How do you figure that making it illegal for someone with a "not mild" mental illness would have prevented this guy from getting his collection if he was perfectly willing to commit a crime to steal and possess them? You'll need to find a better example...
     
  20. ToasterLeavins

    Mar 25, 2003
    NJ USA
    Club:
    Everton FC
    I don't even mean it as a criticism in and of itself. If you don't shoot firearms, and don't associate with people who do, you aren't going to know much about them.

    But by the same token, this lack of knowledge doesn't stop people from proposing legislation that tramples rights, is ineffective, and in a lot of cases, just doesn't even make sense with regard to guns and gun control.

    I'm reminded of Connecticut passing a law that made magazines that hold over 7 rounds illegal. It also instantly made all the cops in the state felons, and had to be immediately amended. Or a folding stock making a gun an assault weapon. Or a flash suppressor. Or people not being able to distinguish between semi-auto and full auto. And on and on and on.
     
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  21. dapip

    dapip Member+

    Sep 5, 2003
    South Florida
    Club:
    Millonarios Bogota
    Nat'l Team:
    Colombia
    Actually it says that he would buy anything, some of it possibly stolen:

    “Everybody knew he’d buy guns; his father bought ‘em, his grandfather bought ‘em,” says Al Padgett, 68, who keeps a booth at a local flea market and says he’s known the family all his life. “He collected ‘em, hoarded ‘em, but I never knew him to sell a gun. Not one. He did everyone a favor keeping ‘em off the street.”

    Brooks sees things differently. Nicholson had piles of allegedly stolen goods, including a zoo’s worth of taxidermy trophies, Brooks says, but his preference was guns and he provided a ready market for burglars who grabbed them from cabins and hunting camps. The sheriff still hasn’t determined precisely how many guns in Nicholson’s cache were stolen, noting that hundreds have had their serial numbers removed so they can’t be traced.
    The example is fine. He might be a hoarder (mild to severe mental illness), lax legislation has probably made him a felon and possibly an semi-unwillingly accessory to other crimes,
     
  22. diablodelsol

    diablodelsol Member+

    Jan 10, 2001
    New Jersey
    I just found out I'm a super owner. So I got that going for me.

    @dapip

    One of the problems with firearm debates is that far too often the ones participating in the debate from our side (I am very liberal and have voted just about straight ticket democrat my entire life) have little to no understanding of firearms or firearm ownership when they discuss the topic.

    Regarding marksmanship for hunters:

    Exactly how would you measure my accuracy when firing my shot guns? One for test for slugs and sabbots? For shot, at what distance? Do I get to pick the shells and change chokes? Do I have to qualify with every gun? What qualifies as on target? Do I have to center the pattern or just get enough on paper to qualify as a Jill shot? I can assure you from decades of hunting that there is a massive difference between accuracy at a range and accuracy in the field.

    I suspect you don't have the first clue what I just talked about. That's the problem. It's a bit like trying to discuss evolution with a creationist that doesn't have a clue about how science and the scientific method works. I'm sure a smart creationist could make all kinds of arguments that would convince other creationist that he was making sense, but the debate would be pointless.

    I've said before in this site, and I believe in this thread...if the left wants to make a difference...propose legislation that requires background checks for private sales, and make gun owners responsible for their firearms from the day they buy it until the day the can prove they don't own it any more.
     
  23. Cascarino's Pizzeria

    Apr 29, 2001
    New Jersey, USA
    Well the last part of that about "responsible gun owners" is kinda funny. We know the vast majority are. It's when some get angry, drunk or high when they become irresponsible. And family members disproportionately take the brunt of the rage.

    And didn't Cons want to allow gun sales to people on the terrorist watch list? How in f#ck will Democrats get any common sense gun legislation through this Congress? Friggin babies could get massacred in a maternity ward and Lil Paulie Ryan would say "just proves we need more access to mental health treatment."

    My bro stocked up in 2008 when the fear of Obama was gripping Whitelandia. Guess what? Obama did jackshit and everyone's stockpile was safe and sound.
     
  24. Smurfquake

    Smurfquake Moderator
    Staff Member

    Aug 8, 2000
    San Carlos, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And gun manufacturers made more money when all the white folks in Whitelandia stocked up, so, you know, mission accomplished for the NRA.
     
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  25. VincitOmniaVeritas

    Jul 18, 2015
    Northern Virginia
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Don't worry the market is flooded, particularly with ARs. Many of the boutique companies will be out of business is a few years.
     

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