Or...our club is in a relatively small market and thus it was difficult to find enough players of that level willing to commit to this program, especially when it was only going to be for one year (this was the club's first year in the DA). And we've actually lost two worthy players over the course of the season because of the demanding schedule (plus our coach is kind of a dick). I don't think it's entirely true, but I do think it's basically true. Sure there are a huge number of gifted players outside those markets, but nowhere will you find as great a concentration as in the DA system. But there aren't nearly enough players in that system to supply the demand for college players, so by no means are they ONLY looking at the DA. And considering most of the best DA teams are fully funded, that would seem to contradict the notion that the program is elitist, since virtually all other clubs are pay-to-play. · My point was that USSF is working within a context of a global marketplace of soccer players, whereas our domestic sports aren't as much or at all. So they're doing what they can do produce players that can succeed at that level, not just domestically. So pretty much what we had before the DA? I mean on the one hand there are people like you who want soccer to be more like other American sports, then on the other hand you have the people bitching that we're not following the European model to the letter, and the lack of pro/rel in this country or whatever is dooming us to mediocrity. It's a pretty tricky dance. Because I don't think that's actually the whole point of the DA. It's supposed to be the top of a pyramid that extends all the way down to rec, and considering they've been expanding the program every year, it's pretty obvious they don't want it to be just devoted to the "ultra-elite." Well high school soccer's schedule does go against the principles of the DA, so yeah, I'd agree that at the very least they just don't care about it. I mean the DA makes a point of emphasizing training over games, with four 90 minute trainings per week, and usually only one game on the weekend (sometimes two), and never more than one game per day. Meanwhile high school soccer has kids playing 2-3 games per week, maybe training in between, and the quality of coaching is all over the map, as are the times of the year it's played in various parts of the country. Why should they care overmuch about the high school game? I think it's more the latter, but also because sporting media is full of people who grew up caring primarily about and having the deepest understanding of those sports, and monetary concerns demand that's what they continue to do. It's been improving as new generations come through, but slowly. I personally think media is a little late to the show on this one, and most soccer fans just follow their own sources instead (like this one). It's meaningful because the kids and the coaches are self-motivated and want to win for the sake of their own pride. No, there aren't any BS tournament trophies won by the most cynical teams who've perfected the art of kick-and-run, and that's definitely for the better. And the U15 and up DA leagues are VERY competitive, and standings and stats are kept and posted on their website.
You can’t really argue this on a case by case basis; with any augment there will all be one off examples and exceptions…in general, at any level, at any age group, given a sufficient enough player pool, the talent level of bottom half or quadrant of the higher-level team, will be virtually indistinguishable from and interchangeable with the top half or quadrant from the next lower team…so far, nobody has really denied and disputed this claim/opinion head on… Most of the best? Doesn’t that also imply most of the rest aren’t fully funded? Pay-to-play is still very much alive and well in youth soccer. Even those reach the point of getting fully funded, still in all likelihood, they paid-to-play in order to get there…besides, pay-to-play isn’t the only thing I that makes youth soccer elitist… What it’s supposed to do and what it does are two difference things... As far as expanding, from what I understand, they are tightening the net in established areas, not expanding it into new areas…its mostly new younger teams to feed into already established older DA teams…once again, great if you already live in those markets and have access… I understand that probably sounds like sour grapes…that I am just bent that I don’t live in a DA market (although technically we are…Scott Gallagher is few miles down I55 (~100 miles), and some kids do make the trip, but it’s rare)…but in any case, even if I were in a DA market, I would still like to think I would be a proponent of high school soccer… As the governing body of soccer in all its forms in the United States, U.S. Soccer has played an integral part in charting the course for the sport in the USA for more than 100 years. In that time, the Federation’s mission statement has been clear and simple: to make soccer, in all its forms, a preeminent sport in the United States and to continue the development of soccer at all recreational and competitive levels. - US Soccer Because good or bad, right or wrong, whether you like it or not, High School is a BIG part of our sporting culture….ignore, dismiss, bypass at your own risk…. We produce world class gymnasts and figure skaters in much the same way USSF wants to produce soccer players…the result being, nobody really cares about those sports expect once every 4 years and only when its wrapped in the flag…if that’s all you want or aim for, then I guess not caring much about high school soccer is fine… Yes, meaningful can take many dimensions…it can be meaningful at the individual level and a community level…I have no doubt, at an individual or personal level, the competitive is very fierce …I am also equally sure a community will never support or rally behind a club the way they do behind a HS team, regardless of the sport…you can have the best record and play the best soccer on the planet at the club or DA level and nobody really cares, website or not…have a HS team go to State, and regardless of how 2nd tier soccer is normally, that community will rally behind and support that team…they will care…. Once again, I am not saying one is necessarily better than the other…just that there are differences to be founds… differences that I don’t think can be duplicated at a club level…I believe we can raise the level of play in High School; I think you will be hard pressed to get the community at large care about a club team…
Hmm... Why should anyones priorities be based on getting a community behind a club? My kid is playing club because I wanted her to learn the right way from the get go - and by now she has a passion for that. I don't think it's a stretch to think that there are other parent like me who don't give a damn about what my community thinks of my kids club - frankly I enjoy them as being completely seperate because that equates to far less drama. Once again - raising the level of play at the high school level is long after the horses have left the barn. Why kids use the sport as a fun activity and shortly thereafter run off to football and cheer at u10 would be far more meaningful to figure out then letting DA kids play high school - and again, I am not sure why you really even care so much? Helping volunteer parents to understand why the game is so beautiful and how to coach in a more simpler way - however one that connects training with play on the field in a more clear manner would certainly do more across the board then letting DA kids play high school.
I am talking about the priorities an organization that claims to be the governing body of ALL soccer in the US…a governing body that sets polices that imo seems very antagonistic or dismissive of high school soccer… Volk, you keep wanting to make this personal, when it’s really a policy level debate… I care because I would like to see soccer in this country as popular and supported as football, basketball and baseball….is that ok?
It's not personal at all and that's not where I am going. I want that "organization" to improve where it needs to as well. I just don't see where at the high school level that comes close to expanding the sport when compared to what could be done at the u8/u10 level where the largest pool of players and parents are - rec.
I see your point on HS but I think you're underestimating the community aspect in growing the sport at the ages you mention. In other sports like football, basketball and baseball (at least by me), 3rd and 4th grade is when the kids start playing for their town. For soccer, they're primarily playing for a privately run club. I realize it's anecdotal, but the kids have more pride playing with the name of their town on the front of their jersey than they do some random club name. I wouldn't call it the primary reason soccer loses kids at this age, but I do believe it plays a role.
And we also start to lose those kids in droves at the end that time…in many cases to sports that have a strong High School presence/tradition… Perhaps there is a correlation? No question u-little rec is an important starting point…
I think some have under estimated the amount of pride or recognition that kids crave to jvgnj's point. Just last night I sat down with my son to go through all of the high school graduation forms he needs to have turned in. One form was to apply for cords that designate different achievements during high school. I thought it would be an easy get your letterman's cord and be done with it but suddenly he wanted to request a cord for everything he has ever done. He wants his peers (along with their parents, grandparents, etc.) to visually seen what he has accomplished. To the point of trying to rush to get all of his public service he has never cared to "get credit for" approved so he can get one more cord. This is where high school has a draw for the elite athlete, in any sport. The chance for people to recognize the talent, time, and effort that has been put into becoming elite. This does not happen at the club level in any sport, because they are fractured geographically but high school gives that opportunity. To be honest very few DA players are ever going to get any recognition for soccer, even at a local level so HS may be their only shot. As has been said before, it is a personal choice for each kid (parent) but if there was a better way to have DA and HS work together I think you would have a happier group of DA kids and probably more fan interest in the DA games, once their peers know the level the kids can play at.
I'm not underestimating the community aspect at all. High School football has expanded and it has become a better game because many high schools are now running Jr programs. Kids move out of soccer (often) to those programs because of that pride - I fully get that. What I am saying is why can't rec soccer do the same - or why can't the high school embrace the sport at that level in a meaningful way to not only link it with the high school but also augment the process for the volunteer parents and the players? It's exactly what Jr football is doing on both levels today in many places. My contention is not what the high school represents or does - its the age in which IMO is far to late to market a sport to families.
You've described our junior football program, which I'm involved in, more or less spot on. We have an ongoing dialogue with the HS coaches, run the same playbook, our kids get to walk out the HS players at home games, etc. It's been a great setup for everyone involved. The young kids feel like they're part of a big program and the HS team has done very well the last decade, in part because they get a steady stream of kids who have been coached the way they want. Baseball and basketball have seen the success and have taken steps to do something similar. Why hasn't the soccer program done the same? Probably because our area has an awful lot of clubs and outside of kindergarten and, to a lesser extent, first grade rec there isn't a soccer program where all of the kids in town play together. They're spread across 4-5 different clubs. I don't want to make sweeping generalizations based on my personal observations, but it's one of the tradeoffs involved in the club system. There are a lot of benefits to professional coaching and pulling players from a bigger geographical area, but you do lose some of the sense of community that the other sports have.
Even if we agree on where we want to go, how we get there is still open to some debate… Jr Football is not driving the popularity of HS football… The popularity of HS Football is driving the need for Jr Football… In these other sports, High School is the linchpin…it drives and motivates young kids to excel and it propels the very best onward to college and beyond…there is a synergy, both before and after high school, with these other sports that doesn’t seem to exist with soccer…nor does it seem any interest in developing by the powers that be…. You can’t put the cart before the horse….improve/promote HS soccer and the before and after will largely take of themselves…
We have had up to 4 comm clubs in our town and now just have 2. No reason why they could not work together and form a common training core while working with the HS. And there is no reason why rec cannot be part of that as well. One problem seems to be boards who refuse to give up power and/or a paycheck however. But in theory - this could be done.
No reason it cannot here as well. But in doing so you're engaging the parents and the players at a much younger age and ultimately building both.
Yes, in theory it could work but there are some obstacles associated with club soccer that aren't easily overcome. At least in this particular instance. On my son's club team, there are kids from 4 different towns representing 4 different high schools. Which HS should the club work with? You mention the club boards being reluctant and I think this would apply to the coaches as well. I've definitely noticed a certain level of condescension among the paid club coaches and their attitude towards parent coaches at the rec level. Some (most?) of these coaches are not going to subordinate their program to a high school coach, particularly when part of their pitch is that they have the secret sauce for player development, which is a phrase thrown around so much it's almost devoid of meaning. The HS coach would be better served going over the clubs' heads and working directly with the rec program, which would be much more receptive and appreciative. These obstacles generally aren't present in the other sports. They're usually run and coached by parents who live in the town and will be sending their kids to the same HS, so everyone has a much greater incentive to work together. Spoiler alert: I don't have a solution for this. I think soccer is in a weird spot in that it has the youth participation numbers of a major sport but a governing and competition structure more akin to a niche sport.
That's why I stuck with comm clubs - you're not going to get clubs in this for many reasons - some of which you stated. This will not also do anything with DA clubs. But you can build the sport if the "local" comm club(s) work together with the h/s and and focus on a uniform training/development path forward that shares or uses the high school brand.
My experience is that that's an exaggeration, and that sure there will be a few players like that, but nowhere near half a squad. But then we're just each talking from our limited experience here. I was being vague because I don't know. I do know that in our region the professional academies (San Jose and Sac Republic) are fully funded, along with a couple of the other large clubs, but only half the clubs in our league are still in the DA after U14 and it's the older ages I was mostly thinking about. Well they kinda have to expand into established areas because that's where the critical mass of teams is. And they are slowly expanding beyond that, I remember reading that there will now be DA leagues in the younger ages in the Pacific Northwest starting next year, whereas previously it only started at U15, and those teams share a league with Northern California. Yeah, I get that. Personally I'm sorta indifferent to high school soccer, like you said it seems more like a fun thing for kids to do than something that will really help the high level players succeed. My son has pretty much hit his ceiling, most likely, so he's looking forward to playing high school the next three years, but if he was on a higher level college or pro trajectory I wouldn't be heartbroken if he skipped it. But soccer isn't really a big part of our high school sporting culture, at least in the places where I've lived. Apples and watermelons, you're talking about two individually oriented sports that have a very small worldwide audience as compared to the most popular sport in the world. Your opinion is very much in the minority among soccer fans from what I've seen, most of whom would prefer that we emulate Europe more closely than we do rather than model our game on other American sports (and in this regard I'm sort of in between, but lean more toward your take on the situation). Maybe so, but again, totally depends on your community. I really don't think mine would rally around a high school soccer team no matter how well they did, though it would get them a little more print in the local paper, like they might even beat out the jv basketball team in article placement.
I just don't see how it's logistically possible, unless high schools can come to some nationwide agreement as to what time of the year their soccer leagues will play, and that's just not going to happen. There's absolutely no way kids can do the DA and high school at the same time given the schedule of each, and there's no way the DA can schedule around high school given the wide variety of schedules the high school game is played in.
I think with a small amount of effort on both sides it could be done. In reality the bulk of the DA season is regional play (I believe) or could be. If NFHS would work to have regions agree on a season then the DA could work within that parameter. For example, the SE state (FL, GA, LA, TX, MS, AL, etc.) could agree high school season is winter; MW and Northern states could agree to spring or fall, etc. whatever works for the regional climate. The DA then just has to schedule around these 75 - 90 days on a regional basis (ie. don't schedule any regional play) and then have any National DA events in the June to August no HS soccer anywhere timeframe. Would it work? I think so. Would it take NFHS to coordinate the states more than they do today? Yes. Would both sides have to recognize each other's standing and work together for the greater name of soccer? Yes. I keep coming back to the quote from above that the USSF mission is to grow and support soccer at ALL LEVELS. Like it or not HS is a level and this type of sit down/agreement would show me that USSF is living up to it's mission.
So I have 3 players left who are on our varsity team - two who are seniors - one who has played varsity all four years and the other a varsity player since a junior. The 3rd returned to the sport after time off with other activities. In any event - we are at an ECNL/DA club and I want my 2005 to make the high school vs club decision on her own - but I want her to be as close to the experience as possible in order to make a decision that she is happy with. It's early - but I have been watching my former players mentioned above - home games for a few years now and I've started to bring my 2005 daughter to check it out. Here is I noticed 1. One senior which I coached before moving on to our club for 5 years looked terrible - not talking on the field and making mistakes - I queued up the Benny Hill music twice while watching her. Even my daughter - who grew up watching her noticed this. The other senior - who played for a smaller club after me just sat on top - ran back and forth but lacked the skills to make a play of it in a one on one situation. 2. The 3rd (junior) seemed lost on the field - did nothing. 3. Lots of long ball - solid passes up the field - even impressive with accuracy, but long ball in the end. 4. 3-4 other players had the Benny Hill music playing in my head as well. 5. Top player who has been touted all over would not even make out top in house team - much less ECNL/NPL. Closer to the end of the first half, my 2005 leaned over and quietly said "I think we have 2 people on my team who are better then anyone on this team". I leaned in and said "I think you have 4 players who are better then anyone on this team". Without me saying anything - she could clearly see the quality of play - the opposing team even worse. Now mind you, our home team is likely the weakest I have seen since I went to high school there - so this may not be the best example for her, but its what we got in terms of her getting the entire experience - varsity game on the football field, under the lights of the high school she will likely go to - where both her mother and father attended. One comment she had that I chuckled was... "Dad if I played I would be so popular" Now I am not sure why she said that - maybe it was the quality on the field vs what she is used - thinking that she would be a superstar on the field - and it's likely she would. I chuckled because some parents actually say this often and I think it's rather shallow and took some time to explain this to my daughter. In the end I think she'll choose DA because her team gets on very well for being completely new this season. Parents get on as well. These kids are doing laser tag, movies, going to Red Stars games and roller skating when not on the field. I'd be surprised if they are willing to walk away from that in 3 years if they manage to stay together. Just my experience - we'll continue to go to high school games nonetheless.
Volk- I know we are both in the Chicago area although not near each other and I think that is maybe the big difference. I do not have any girls and will be the first to admit I don't follow ECNL/NPL so much of my opinion is based on personal experience. My son's high school girls team appears to be the exact opposite in terms of talent. I know that most of the girls play with Team Chicago, NSA, Galaxy, etc. but I'm not sure where those fit in on the girls side of things (but have a decent idea). My wife commented, after some school function, that it seemed every girl on the soccer team was playing division I soccer next year. This is an exaggeration but I do know two are headed to the Big Ten, one is headed to the SEC, one is headed to the MAC, and at least 3 others have not yet committed. Coupled with this, the last several years they have placed equal numbers of girls in similar programs. I would guess, based on this very unscientific data, that the level of soccer played by these girls is at a pretty high level. Granted this school may be the exception rather than the rule and this team is in the final 4 of the state championship tournament more years than not so that may speak to the lower level across the rest of the state but I think the high school soccer discussion needs to vary based on locale and can't/shouldn't be painted with a broad brush that we seem to want to paint it with.
Yes your area is completely different - you have a few really solid clubs out there competing for players - seems your culture may be slightly different as well. The 2 towns that compose our High School are reletively small. One loves being small and there, most parents engage rec play sports - less jr football, all the way up to Jr sports and then high school. Maybe 5-7% go to travel sports in the other town or surrounding towns. Othe other town pretends to have a solid soccer community club and has done so for years. But their gig is on deaths door - u10 D team and a u11 D team that will likely never make it to C. No other ages above that play. So when I say high school soccer will be bad for my 2005 - I really mean that. I have not shared that with her but I am keeping my eye on it.
I really don't say much on here, but this thread hits close to home. As someone who does have a daughter who played ECNL (and who also played with many of the girls keeper dad is talking about) I think I can offer a different thought. My daughter left her ECNL club and has never been happier. Is the quality of play in HS good or even comparable, no it isn't, BUT the two clubs she has played for after she left ECNL have both been comparable, if not better than the team she left. On any given day they could beat or lose to that "top level" team. The difference is the coaching is not abusive and the girls enjoy themselves. What has HS done for my child? She is in the paper weekly. People who never knew her when she played club approach her and tell her daily how wonderful she is. Younger girls come to watch her play HS games. The confidence boost she has received has been great. Also, despite leaving the "elite" club she is still going to play soccer in college in the fall on a very sizeable scholarship. All this is to say Volk, don't get sucked in to the whole ECNL/DA is the only way to go. You have to evaluate the situation regularly and make decisions. There are plenty of great opportunities for kids to continue play, in HS, in college, or beyond. Many girls we know are going off to play at large D1 schools without ever having played ECNL, while some of the ECNL girls are going to schools that are D3 or NAIA. It really doesn't matter where you play, it's what your child gets out of it. Find a coach that will develop them not just as a player, but as a person, the results will be much better. HS soccer may be bad or ugly, but the actual soccer isn't everything to these kids, they can get a lot out of the experience.
I completely agree - it's up to her in the end. There is a lot as well about ECNL and DA which I do not like such as cost, subbing - nixing H/S altogether and then there is the issue that the top talent will be split between the two. As far as ppularity and confidence - what I can do is try to steer her in ways to develop that along the way - so as to not necessarily need to use soccer in High School to obtain those. She plays basketball pretty well and wants to try volleyball next year in Jr High. She also was recently nominated for the Junior National Young Leaders Conference by the teachers in her school. Very level headed - gets on well with all groups of kids and is a very empathetic as well as sympathetic kid. Frankly I'd rather have popularity and confidence derive from those characteristics rather than being great out on the field - and that's coming from a person who obtained those from soccer & tennis so I know how that works. My job is to add more depth to my kids that I had through experiences and support which is why we are going to games and will continue to do so.
Funny how that dynamic can swing. My 2005 boy was on a team like this the previous two years -- kids were all very tight though most didn't go to school together, most of the parents socialized and spent time together, enjoyed time away from the fields at tournaments. Then, with the birth-year shift, half the team turned over for last fall and this spring and it just isn't the same. Not bad, but now a team dinner at a tournament might draw five or six families. The kids get along fine, but they don't hang out away from soccer. To circle back to my original concern when I started this thread, I had a conversation a few days ago at a high school track meet with a dad who comes at this from a very different place. His son is a high school freshman and on my older son's track team. I've known both father and son for years. The son has played soccer all his life and it's his favorite sport, but he's only played rec soccer and as part of indoor teams some father or other put together in the winter, never club. The dad said his son badly wants to play high school soccer but is intimidated by what they see as a high school team dominated by players from the most dominant local club (the one my younger son plays for) whose skills are much more developed. They both worry he just won't be good enough to see the field. I don't know much about the kid as a player, but he's a good athlete and I tried to reassure the dad that there are kids on the high school roster who aren't really club players (or at least not long-term players -- some may have played a season or two here and there), and that as I understand it sometimes high school coaches will play an upper-classman who may not be quite as good as a younger player simply because they've put in their time. So fwiw, the things I have dreaded about my son having to deal with in high school soccer -- athleticism over skill, seniors play even if there is a freshman or sophomore who is a better player -- were of great comfort to the dad I was speaking with. And for all the reasons some of you have mentioned here, I hope his son tries out next fall and is part of the team until he finishes school. The boy isn't shooting for any kind of soccer career beyond high school, but, at least according to his dad, it will mean a lot to him to play for his school's team while he can.